Do you want to discuss boring politics? (26 Viewers)

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
I think any prediction of what’s happening 80 years from now needs a whole lot of salt.

The third world will industrialise quicker than the first world did and like everywhere else where living standards have risen birth rates will fall.

This is true but it will take time, like it did here, to filter through, We had a big population explosion post-industrialisation as infant mortality fell and life expectancy increased but the old habits and beliefs kept going.

Hopefully they would move to the lower birth rates quicker than us as they'll also have access to the information, contraception etc more quickly than we did but I expect it to increase before it goes down.
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
National insurance hike ....yayyyyy



giphy.gif
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
Not too keen on the vaccine passports either tbh ..

They are coming over very authoritarian aren't they

Maybe we should vote them out eh 😉
 

COV

Well-Known Member
Saw this posted on FB, my first thought was “how shit must Labour be that they can’t beat this guy” 🙈 CON+10 as they say…

“Two years ago this Saturday, 24 July, Boris Johnson became Prime Minister. Speaking outside No 10, he mocked “the doubters, the doomsters, the gloomsters” and declared that “the people who bet against Britain are going to lose their shirts”. If only they had.

Yes, he got Brexit done, sort of, but it was a wretched, joyless Brexit that has sundered the country; a Brexit secured on a false prospectus, and by betraying Northern Ireland; a Brexit with many losers but not a single clear beneficiary.

Yes, he gambled on a Covid-19 vaccine and won, but that must be weighed against his initial refusal to take the pandemic seriously; his catastrophic failure to order preemptive lockdowns or border closures, and his scandalous neglect of care homes.

Even as the pandemic’s second wave erupted last winter he wanted to reopen the country over Christmas. He is taking the reckless risk of reopening it today (19 July) despite a soaring infection rate and the desperate pleas of global health experts. He kept Matt Hancock on as health secretary despite privately admitting he was “totally fucking hopeless”. He is draconian on Monday, libertarian on Tuesday and wavering on Wednesday. Dominic Cummings has described his handling of the crisis as a “disaster” and “madness”, adding: “Tens of thousands of people died who didn’t need to die”.

But Johnson has arguably caused even greater damage to this country through his systematic trashing of democratic norms, degradation of public life and debasing of politics.

He is a Prime Minister who routinely misleads the public – about everything from the benefits of Brexit to the need for an Irish Sea border and whether he sacked Hancock.

He is a Prime Minister who has destroyed the principle of cabinet government by packing his with mediocrities, non-entities and reprobates – men and women who were promoted for their loyalty alone, and whom he refuses to sack no matter how egregious their transgressions or incompetence.

He claims to have restored sovereignty to the British parliament, but treats it with contempt. He whipped up hostility against it for thwarting the “will of the people”. He has used his large Commons majority to secure draconian emergency powers, and approval of his Brexit deals, with insultingly little debate. He makes major announcements outside the chamber, to the fury of Lindsay Hoyle, the Speaker. As Betty Boothroyd, a former speaker, noted last week, he scarcely bothers to answer parliamentary questions.

The Prime Minister shows similar contempt for the other independent institutions of a healthy democracy. He seeks to curb the judiciary, muzzle the BBC, politicise the civil service, defang the Election Commission and put Paul Dacre in charge of Ofcom. He wants to curtail the right to protest, and impose ten-year sentences for defacing statues.

He is not interested in substance or serious government. He shies from hard decisions. He practices the politics of trite slogans, headline-grabbing soundbites and empty promises. Exhibit one: last week’s shockingly vacuous speech on what is supposedly his flagship policy – levelling up.

His policies are determined by the morning’s opinion polls or Daily Telegraph leader column, or by the latest demand of a small cabal of right-wing Tory MPs. He has no overarching strategy, no grand plan beyond the retention of power, no principles or convictions that he will not jettison if expedience demands it. As Cummings now admits, he is “like a shopping trolley smashing from one side of the aisle to the other”.

He is willing to break the law by proroguing parliament, or reneging on a Northern Ireland protocol which he solemnly negotiated, ratified and signed. He would deny justice to the victims of the Troubles to appease right-wing tabloids and Tories determined to protect trigger-happy British soldiers. He condones ministerial actions that are borderline corrupt – the awarding of huge, tender-free Covid contracts to unqualified cronies, for example, or Robert Jenrick’s approval of Richard Desmond’s £1bn property development in Tower Hamlets in east London. He rewards friends and donors with jobs and peerages, but purges the moderate and decent.

He is a past master at avoiding accountability. He ducks and weaves at Prime Minister’s Questions. He hardly ever gives full-blown press conferences at which journalists can develop proper lines of questioning. He has not given an in-depth television interview since January. He punts an independent inquiry into his handling of the Covid pandemic into the political long grass. He evades questions about his luxury holiday in Mustique, or his redecoration of the Downing Street flat, or his funnelling of public funds to his former lover, Jennifer Arcuri.

He instead peddles the illusion of openness and transparency by posting video clips on Twitter, or through daily photo-ops of stunning banality, or by delivering carefully-honed soundbites to a local television crew.

Johnson's Tory apologists in parliament and the press know all of this is true, but they publicly defend him because he wins elections. He has been aided by a weak and fractured opposition, of course, but he is a shameless populist who does what populists do. He promises the earth. He spends money like water (except on nurses, school meals and educational catch-up programmes). He panders to the people’s baser instincts, exploiting their grievances, resentments and xenophobia. He inflames his base with a deliberate policy of division, pitting north against south, the common man against the metropolitan elite, progressives against conservatives, Leavers against Remainers. He scapegoats immigrants, asylum seekers, lefty lawyers and the EU. He subverts true, understated patriotism with the ugly, aggressive, flag-waving jingoism of the English football thug.

In that inaugural Downing Street speech, Johnson declared that “the buck stops here”, that the Union flag “stands for freedom and free speech and the rule of law”, that he would “create a new partnership with our European friends – as warm and close and affectionate as possible”. He promised that the UK would “recover our natural role as an enterprising, outward-looking and truly global Britain, generous in temper and engaged with the world”. He spoke of “uniting” the country and the “awesome foursome that are incarnated in that red, white and blue flag”.

The speech was so much verbal flatulence. The precise opposite has happened. The UK is a diminished country – economically, diplomatically and geopolitically. It is socially fractured, and struggling to prevent Scottish secession. It has shamefully cut foreign aid. It has breached international agreements. It treats refugees as criminals. It has courted authoritarian figures such as Donald Trump and Hungary’s Viktor Orbán. It has forfeited Brussels’ goodwill, strained the so-called “special relationship” and squandered its international reputation for decency and common sense. “Global Britain” may no longer be trusted even to host the 2030 World Cup. It has lost control, not regained it.

Seldom has a rich, sophisticated Western country fallen so far, so fast. In May, Cummings described Johnson as “unfit for the job”. He was right, but what a crying shame he did not say so back in 2019 instead of propelling him to power.”
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
Saw this posted on FB, my first thought was “how shit must Labour be that they can’t beat this guy” 🙈 CON+10 as they say…

“Two years ago this Saturday, 24 July, Boris Johnson became Prime Minister. Speaking outside No 10, he mocked “the doubters, the doomsters, the gloomsters” and declared that “the people who bet against Britain are going to lose their shirts”. If only they had.

Yes, he got Brexit done, sort of, but it was a wretched, joyless Brexit that has sundered the country; a Brexit secured on a false prospectus, and by betraying Northern Ireland; a Brexit with many losers but not a single clear beneficiary.

Yes, he gambled on a Covid-19 vaccine and won, but that must be weighed against his initial refusal to take the pandemic seriously; his catastrophic failure to order preemptive lockdowns or border closures, and his scandalous neglect of care homes.

Even as the pandemic’s second wave erupted last winter he wanted to reopen the country over Christmas. He is taking the reckless risk of reopening it today (19 July) despite a soaring infection rate and the desperate pleas of global health experts. He kept Matt Hancock on as health secretary despite privately admitting he was “totally fucking hopeless”. He is draconian on Monday, libertarian on Tuesday and wavering on Wednesday. Dominic Cummings has described his handling of the crisis as a “disaster” and “madness”, adding: “Tens of thousands of people died who didn’t need to die”.

But Johnson has arguably caused even greater damage to this country through his systematic trashing of democratic norms, degradation of public life and debasing of politics.

He is a Prime Minister who routinely misleads the public – about everything from the benefits of Brexit to the need for an Irish Sea border and whether he sacked Hancock.

He is a Prime Minister who has destroyed the principle of cabinet government by packing his with mediocrities, non-entities and reprobates – men and women who were promoted for their loyalty alone, and whom he refuses to sack no matter how egregious their transgressions or incompetence.

He claims to have restored sovereignty to the British parliament, but treats it with contempt. He whipped up hostility against it for thwarting the “will of the people”. He has used his large Commons majority to secure draconian emergency powers, and approval of his Brexit deals, with insultingly little debate. He makes major announcements outside the chamber, to the fury of Lindsay Hoyle, the Speaker. As Betty Boothroyd, a former speaker, noted last week, he scarcely bothers to answer parliamentary questions.

The Prime Minister shows similar contempt for the other independent institutions of a healthy democracy. He seeks to curb the judiciary, muzzle the BBC, politicise the civil service, defang the Election Commission and put Paul Dacre in charge of Ofcom. He wants to curtail the right to protest, and impose ten-year sentences for defacing statues.

He is not interested in substance or serious government. He shies from hard decisions. He practices the politics of trite slogans, headline-grabbing soundbites and empty promises. Exhibit one: last week’s shockingly vacuous speech on what is supposedly his flagship policy – levelling up.

His policies are determined by the morning’s opinion polls or Daily Telegraph leader column, or by the latest demand of a small cabal of right-wing Tory MPs. He has no overarching strategy, no grand plan beyond the retention of power, no principles or convictions that he will not jettison if expedience demands it. As Cummings now admits, he is “like a shopping trolley smashing from one side of the aisle to the other”.

He is willing to break the law by proroguing parliament, or reneging on a Northern Ireland protocol which he solemnly negotiated, ratified and signed. He would deny justice to the victims of the Troubles to appease right-wing tabloids and Tories determined to protect trigger-happy British soldiers. He condones ministerial actions that are borderline corrupt – the awarding of huge, tender-free Covid contracts to unqualified cronies, for example, or Robert Jenrick’s approval of Richard Desmond’s £1bn property development in Tower Hamlets in east London. He rewards friends and donors with jobs and peerages, but purges the moderate and decent.

He is a past master at avoiding accountability. He ducks and weaves at Prime Minister’s Questions. He hardly ever gives full-blown press conferences at which journalists can develop proper lines of questioning. He has not given an in-depth television interview since January. He punts an independent inquiry into his handling of the Covid pandemic into the political long grass. He evades questions about his luxury holiday in Mustique, or his redecoration of the Downing Street flat, or his funnelling of public funds to his former lover, Jennifer Arcuri.

He instead peddles the illusion of openness and transparency by posting video clips on Twitter, or through daily photo-ops of stunning banality, or by delivering carefully-honed soundbites to a local television crew.

Johnson's Tory apologists in parliament and the press know all of this is true, but they publicly defend him because he wins elections. He has been aided by a weak and fractured opposition, of course, but he is a shameless populist who does what populists do. He promises the earth. He spends money like water (except on nurses, school meals and educational catch-up programmes). He panders to the people’s baser instincts, exploiting their grievances, resentments and xenophobia. He inflames his base with a deliberate policy of division, pitting north against south, the common man against the metropolitan elite, progressives against conservatives, Leavers against Remainers. He scapegoats immigrants, asylum seekers, lefty lawyers and the EU. He subverts true, understated patriotism with the ugly, aggressive, flag-waving jingoism of the English football thug.

In that inaugural Downing Street speech, Johnson declared that “the buck stops here”, that the Union flag “stands for freedom and free speech and the rule of law”, that he would “create a new partnership with our European friends – as warm and close and affectionate as possible”. He promised that the UK would “recover our natural role as an enterprising, outward-looking and truly global Britain, generous in temper and engaged with the world”. He spoke of “uniting” the country and the “awesome foursome that are incarnated in that red, white and blue flag”.

The speech was so much verbal flatulence. The precise opposite has happened. The UK is a diminished country – economically, diplomatically and geopolitically. It is socially fractured, and struggling to prevent Scottish secession. It has shamefully cut foreign aid. It has breached international agreements. It treats refugees as criminals. It has courted authoritarian figures such as Donald Trump and Hungary’s Viktor Orbán. It has forfeited Brussels’ goodwill, strained the so-called “special relationship” and squandered its international reputation for decency and common sense. “Global Britain” may no longer be trusted even to host the 2030 World Cup. It has lost control, not regained it.

Seldom has a rich, sophisticated Western country fallen so far, so fast. In May, Cummings described Johnson as “unfit for the job”. He was right, but what a crying shame he did not say so back in 2019 instead of propelling him to power.”

TLDR ... long story short he's a c**t
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
I just joined unite the union and it asked me if I'd like to donate an extra 10p for the Labour Party a month .

Couldn't do it

Wanted to, but didn't
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
Yes

However the main point is how garbage must Labour be to get thrashed out of sight by him
Brexit provided an invincibility - easy when the opposition tried to ignore the democratic will of the people.
 
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest



All from today's Guardian. Great speech by John Kerry, but never gonna happen.
 
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CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Yes

However the main point is how garbage must Labour be to get thrashed out of sight by him

It’s been said before, times can change quickly in politics, the vaccine bounce will disappear soon, especially if the current situation worsens (not just cases/deaths but people self isolating unnecessarily etc).

Labour just need to sort their shit out for when the inevitable opportunity arises
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
It’s been said before, times can change quickly in politics, the vaccine bounce will disappear soon, especially if the current situation worsens (not just cases/deaths but people self isolating unnecessarily etc).

Labour just need to sort their shit out for when the inevitable opportunity arises

It's never going to be a proper opportunity though is it because we're years away from an election.

Of course it'd be good to see a bit more bite from Starmer but even if we did it'd be forgotten by the time we're in front of the ballot box.
 

Skybluefaz

Well-Known Member



All from today's Guardian. Great speech by John Kerry, but never gonna happen.
If the pandemic doesn't teach us to take these things seriously what will? Immediate action needed.
 
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
The party of law and order. Unless it’s one of them.

yep, saw that - have to say, its insidious behaviour, and stronger action should have been taken.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
This highlights how ludicrous some of our parliamentary laws are.

You can be the Prime Minister and lie in the chamber, on the TV and to people in the street and it's fine.
If you're an MP and tell the truth, you get kicked out.

Yet in that same chamber you can use 'parliamentary privilege' to name or accuse any individual who isn't an MP

 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
This highlights how ludicrous some of our parliamentary laws are.

You can be the Prime Minister and lie in the chamber, on the TV and to people in the street and it's fine.
If you're an MP and tell the truth, you get kicked out.

Yet in that same chamber you can use 'parliamentary privilege' to name or accuse any individual who isn't an MP


Heard this earlier and thought fair play, you can’t/shouldn’t subsequently retract a statement if you believe it. She wanted to make a point and did
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Heard this earlier and thought fair play, you can’t/shouldn’t subsequently retract a statement if you believe it. She wanted to make a point and did

Yeah I can’t stand Butler generally and would rather she wasn’t in my party TBH, but this rule is ridiculous and she obviously believes it. It’s nuts you can say anything and be covered by parliamentary privilege but you can’t say someone’s lying and back it up with evidence.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Heard this earlier and thought fair play, you can’t/shouldn’t subsequently retract a statement if you believe it. She wanted to make a point and did

I agree entirely. It's got more attention by her standing by what she said than if she'd retracted it were it'd be forgotten and she'd probably end up looking a bit silly and like she didn't believe it. She stands by what she said and frankly it's not that hard to prove her right. My ire is based at the stupid antiquated 'traditions' of the house that says she can't call him something he blatantly is in that one room. I'd stand just outside the door shouting "Boris is a liar". Do you really think he'd bring charges against you for it?

Trouble with these traditions is they're a leftover of a time when parliament was filled by toffs and landowners who had control and basically used parliament for their own means (has it really changed?). They can say anything they like in the chamber, unless it's against an MP. I can't think of a less apt title for a group of people than 'Right Honourable'.
 

wingy

Well-Known Member
IDK maybe they should start from the premise that it's all lies then when he bucks that trend someone from his own party can have a special flag,stand up and wave it about a bit?
 

oakey

Well-Known Member
I think we're in danger of stretching our version of democracy until it snaps.
I was thinking today about my local MP. He's a tory, represents a West Midlands seat, lives in Hampstead. He tweets himself supporting local councillors protecting the green belt and doing the odd apprentice fair. He's a government whip so will always vote with the government and if you email him will send you a tory central office press spiel. Therefore what is the point of having an MP at all? If we just voted for a PM and let the person elected choose their loyal mates, BoJo would likely pick the same bloke. He works for the tory party, he doesn't work for his constituents.
So this could make a cynic lose faith in democracy completely. We keep hearing that all politicians are liars, on the take etc. That leads many to switch off and just vote as if it's Strictly, not government.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
I think we're in danger of stretching our version of democracy until it snaps.
I was thinking today about my local MP. He's a tory, represents a West Midlands seat, lives in Hampstead. He tweets himself supporting local councillors protecting the green belt and doing the odd apprentice fair. He's a government whip so will always vote with the government and if you email him will send you a tory central office press spiel. Therefore what is the point of having an MP at all? If we just voted for a PM and let the person elected choose their loyal mates, BoJo would likely pick the same bloke. He works for the tory party, he doesn't work for his constituents.
So this could make a cynic lose faith in democracy completely. We keep hearing that all politicians are liars, on the take etc. That leads many to switch off and just vote as if it's Strictly, not government.

I’ve only written to my Labour MP this year, mostly about the nonsense on weddings plus some stuff on the restrictions on classroom teaching. He didn’t reply to any of them nor did I get an acknowledgment.

Will remember that next time he asks for my vote-and he will, with a sub 1000 majority
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
I think we're in danger of stretching our version of democracy until it snaps.
I was thinking today about my local MP. He's a tory, represents a West Midlands seat, lives in Hampstead. He tweets himself supporting local councillors protecting the green belt and doing the odd apprentice fair. He's a government whip so will always vote with the government and if you email him will send you a tory central office press spiel. Therefore what is the point of having an MP at all? If we just voted for a PM and let the person elected choose their loyal mates, BoJo would likely pick the same bloke. He works for the tory party, he doesn't work for his constituents.
So this could make a cynic lose faith in democracy completely. We keep hearing that all politicians are liars, on the take etc. That leads many to switch off and just vote as if it's Strictly, not government.
I’ve got Peter Bone - do you want to swap?
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member


This is a disgrace if they stick to this stance. Of course it’s proportionate to review personal emails if they only have a limited understanding of certain decision making processes because of their use. The fact is Hancock shouldn’t have been using personal emails for official businesses anyway. I would have thought if this was done regularly it would be a sackable offence on its own due to security risks involved. Didn’t Hilary get slaughtered for this in the US ?

This information would also surely be required for any formal enquiry ? I wonder if any subsequently appointment committee have the powers to demand access ?
 

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