Do be fair to Thorn he attracts good loan signings... (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter OyJimmy
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
No you would be a poor one because we could never afford them so whats the point in reccommending them. Just as Thorn would have been a poor scout if he watched the preston match and thought I must ignore Andy Carroll because someone from Preston spotted him first. Its a bizzare thing to think. He can only judge the players he sees when he sees them. His job is to assess a player see if he thinks he could do a job for us and recommend him. There are thousands of players out there if a another scout hapened to see that player first that does not make Andy a bad scout, however if Andy then watches the player when he gets the opportunity and recommends him and he turns out to be a good player that does make him a good scout. Surely you see the logic in that. The chances of you unearthing a player that no other scout has seen and reccommended I would imagine are very slim. You have to judge Thorns ability as a scout purely on who he has seen who he has reccommended and if that player is a good or bad reccomendation.
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So do you personally think Thorn spotted Nimley and Norwood and said right im having them... Or do you think Fergie and Manchni touted both players to us and other teams saying there avaliable if you want them?
AT isn't the most articulate but it has been noticeable how many opposing managers have applauded Thorn's efforts recently. Could it be that, unlike bright sparks like Duffy they understand the constraints under which he works? Could it also be that seasoned managers like Allardyce and Holloway know more about the game than illuminaries like Duffy? And the loans; would clubs like those in Manchester let us have their starlets if they were concerned that AT would inculcate them with bad habits, or would they be advised by Einsteins like Duffy?
I think we should be told, don't you?
Nick
Administrator
Yes and I do agree, which agrees with my original point about our starting 11 who are mostly scouted by him?
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Yes and I agree with that, however he has not been able to play his strongest 11 scouted mostly by him that often and the team and squad has been backfilled with kids. Who apart from Christie have good potential but are not quite at that exceptional level where they can come in and play an entire season and/or be picked reguarly from the start.
You need Thorn to have that 11 of mostly scouted players by him plus at least another 7/8 signings and loan signings by him plusthe kids, if you are going to realese and sell about 10 senior pros. I believe SISU have prevented this.
But the fact is you can only judge him as a scout by the players he has watched has come back to Coventry and recommended and if Coventry have signed them, are they good players. If Coventry didnt have they gone on to be good or bad players? Unfortunatley we dont know about many of the not signed ones as that is generally in house. What is publically out there is Carroll, Henderson and Jack cork which we could have had for under 2 million. Thanks SISU. You said no then sold Fox, Dann, and let Westwoods contract run down.
I think if you compare like for like he will have signed more good ones than bad ones.
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
That was a bit more of a rant at my frustration that we could have had them when we also had Westwood, Dann, Fox and Gunnar. The real problem is bad ownership of the club. They made a decision not to go for promotion and sort the costs that way like West Brom did. Instead they have decided to block transfers make fire sales and cut back that way. Andy Thorn is taking the flack for that decision. However I am getting side tracked.
Reccommending Carroll, Henderson, Gunnar, Deegan, Nimely, Norrwod, Gardener, Dann, Fox, Westwood, Juke, Cork, Cranie, Keogh makes him a good scout as he can assess players and decide if they will be succesfull develop at Cov and improve Cov.
His weaknesses seem to be Bell and Baker (debatable)
McDonald still needs to be judged.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
It doesnt it makes him a good scout and hopefully means as a manager he will only sign decent players.
Nick
Administrator
OK:
Carroll - Was on loan at Preston
Henderson - Was a good spot to get him on loan
Gunnar - Yep, great find out of nowhere
Fox and Dann - Good spots
Deegan - Again, good spot from Ireland
Nimely - Was on loan at Boro, didn't spot him
Norwood - Been about on loan, Northern Ireland international
Cork - Was about on loan for 4 clubs before us
Juke - Good spot from Everton reserves, made some money on him
Keogh - Player of the year for a team the league below, obvious he would do well surely?
Westwood - See above
Gardner - Was offered about
I am pretty sure I could load football manager up and find players that could develop and improve us....
What about ROD, Baker, Bell, Hussey (one for the future maybe?), Herman,
If Hussey turns out to be amazing for us, then I would say he was a good spot and well done.
Carroll - Was on loan at Preston
Henderson - Was a good spot to get him on loan
Gunnar - Yep, great find out of nowhere
Fox and Dann - Good spots
Deegan - Again, good spot from Ireland
Nimely - Was on loan at Boro, didn't spot him
Norwood - Been about on loan, Northern Ireland international
Cork - Was about on loan for 4 clubs before us
Juke - Good spot from Everton reserves, made some money on him
Keogh - Player of the year for a team the league below, obvious he would do well surely?
Westwood - See above
Gardner - Was offered about
I am pretty sure I could load football manager up and find players that could develop and improve us....
What about ROD, Baker, Bell, Hussey (one for the future maybe?), Herman,
If Hussey turns out to be amazing for us, then I would say he was a good spot and well done.
@richh87
Member
If these transfers were so obvious why did we beat other championship clubs to them?
Maybe you need to lend them your computer games. Expect a phonecall from Pep Guardiola any day now.
You're wasted here.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
This isn't football manager though, great in the lower leagues does not = good in higher leagues as you assume with Westwood and Keogh, good scouting isn't just about plucking unknown quantities from the abyss. It is about getting the right players who will fit into your squad and style of play and about the personality they bring into onto the dressing room and training pitch etc. and many more.
The way you dismiss Nimely as not Thorn's spot is an example of this, Nimely by most peoples accounts didn't have the best of times at Middelsbrough yet Thorn spotted that he had the qualities to be a good player at this level if he was used in the right way. He didn't fit in at Borough but is doing well here in a short space of time. This is an example of good scouting.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Childish and poor debating. Truth is who has been scouted by thorn and who has not is purely speculative. Were there other clubs after the loanees? Even if there were the key factor coming here is the opportunity to play.
Thorn scouting westwood. League 1 goalkeeper of the year and cost nearly £1 million. Not a difficult spot really.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Success at lower divisions is not equal to success at higher divisions, if he was that easy to spot why wasn't there a que of championship clubs wanting to sign him?
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Reported as £500k in Carlisle.
http://www.cumberlandnews.co.uk/kei...lisle-utd-750-000-1.755074?referrerPath=2.901
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
I was just going under the assumption that if other championship clubs were interested he wouldn't have picked Coventry over them.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I know what he said but he said a lot of things that somehow never happened. Check the reports at the time all talked of loans, and how a loan would benefit Sunderland, they had a gem and wouldnt have sold him cheaply and didnt. We were never in the market to buy him and to pay the wages that matched the fee. Plus after his loan with us there was plenty of interest in him from other clubs - how were we going to get him
Same with Gary Gardener from Villa. AT said he hoped to get him back to CCFC when the Villa coaches were saying he had been sent to us to get match fit so he could play in FA cup in January. we were never going to get him back - where is he now ? a regular in the first team match squad.
Folk seem to say a lot of things but the fact is the money to do all these things was never there, the need to sell the stars we did have to stay financially afloat was always there. Easy for RR to say he could have got this or that, makes him look good to the fans, but reality is there was no hope and bob hope chance of it happening - we simply could not afford it and as CEO he should have known that shouldnt he ?
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Personally I dont see Ray Ranson as a liar, this is what he said
"If I had been given the tools, I could have got Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson and Jack Cork for less than £2million," Ranson told the Coventry Telegraph."Andy Thorn had been to watch Carroll when he was on loan at Preston before he had got anywhere near Newcastle's first team and he thought he was a raw talent who would develop. I made an inquiry to buy him and was told they were looking for £700,000 to £800,000 with a sell-on clause."We took Jordan on loan when he was on something like £800 a week and we had an option to buy him and I wanted to buy him, as I did Jack Cork, who we also had an option to buy from Chelsea but, again, they wouldn't do it.He added: "We could have got the three of them for about £2 million and we could have had a team with Westwood in goal, England Under-21 international Martin Cranie at right-back, Scott Dann, Ben Turner, Danny Fox, Jordan Henderson, Aron Gunnarsson, Sammy Clingan, Jack Cork, Gary McSheffrey and Andy Carroll up front, and you are not telling me we would be still be in this division with that team."
He specifically said he had an option to buy Henderson, Sunderland would not have granted that option if they were not considering selling.If Henderson was only on £800 I think Cov could have offered him something feesible.
"If I had been given the tools, I could have got Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson and Jack Cork for less than £2million," Ranson told the Coventry Telegraph."Andy Thorn had been to watch Carroll when he was on loan at Preston before he had got anywhere near Newcastle's first team and he thought he was a raw talent who would develop. I made an inquiry to buy him and was told they were looking for £700,000 to £800,000 with a sell-on clause."We took Jordan on loan when he was on something like £800 a week and we had an option to buy him and I wanted to buy him, as I did Jack Cork, who we also had an option to buy from Chelsea but, again, they wouldn't do it.He added: "We could have got the three of them for about £2 million and we could have had a team with Westwood in goal, England Under-21 international Martin Cranie at right-back, Scott Dann, Ben Turner, Danny Fox, Jordan Henderson, Aron Gunnarsson, Sammy Clingan, Jack Cork, Gary McSheffrey and Andy Carroll up front, and you are not telling me we would be still be in this division with that team."
He specifically said he had an option to buy Henderson, Sunderland would not have granted that option if they were not considering selling.If Henderson was only on £800 I think Cov could have offered him something feesible.
Nick
Administrator
How do you know we didn't beat anybody to them? If Nimely was so high up why did we not get him before Boro? Why did we not get Norwood before he went on loan before?
One minute people moan that our team is so poor and that Thorn gets no resources which is why we lose, but 90% of the team he brought in so if it is that poor surely it is his fault?
If he has a great eye for talent and our players are talented, surely he can't manage them as we are where we are? Or are our players not talented, so he doesn't have an eye for talent 100% of the time?
Nick
Administrator
How is it Thorn's spot though? I don't get it? He was obviously spotted by a Man City Scout in africa and brought over. THAT is a good spot.
If I was offered a Man City reserve player, there is no doubt it would improve our squad. Premier League teams tout them out to get experience and also get match fit like Villa did with Gardner as to get him match fit, he would have fit in to our style of play perfectly as an attacking midfielder but for some reason he played as a defensive midfielder?
Maybe I should sit on football manager, I know people that do that probably have more coaching and management qualifications that Thorn anyway.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Sisu
Fact of the matter is at that time our debts were very big and they were increasing all the time. It reached a point where SISU had to make a decision go for the above players and go for promotion. Do a West Brom when you get up dont spend big probably get relegated bank the money try and hold onto your players try and repeat the cycle keep banking the money till you can afford to stay up.
or
Don't sign the above, Sell all of your top players sack lots of CEO's, MD's whatever they are. Sack the manager. Replace him with the cheap alternative. Sell/release more players, replace them with kids and halfway through the season loanees.
They chose the second option now the question is why did they choose the second option. Was it to balance the books get the debt under control because it has not achieved that.
Was it to create lots of seperate businesses transfer the debt around and use some of the money from the sales of players to clear personal debts of some of the key investors of SISU before biting the bullet and selling the club for next to nothing to the Hoff or allowing the club to go into administration. In which case they dont have to worry about the long term effect on the club of another relegation.
Or was to get relegated and some how we come back stronger? - can't see it as been that.
I personally think it was to minimise the impact of debts of certain key private investors before going into adminstration or transfering ownership over to the Hoff.
I think relegation under these circumstances is inevitable and blaming Thorn is preposterous.
I also think your badge says 'you dont need eyes to see you need vision' If they cared about Coventry like I think the Hoff will they would have had the vision of the West Brom model. Instead their alligiance and rightly so as they are investment bankers is to their main investors and their vision was how can we try to recoup as much money back for them and get out of this mess with a much damage limitation as we can so they continue to allow us to invest their money in other areas.
Fact of the matter is at that time our debts were very big and they were increasing all the time. It reached a point where SISU had to make a decision go for the above players and go for promotion. Do a West Brom when you get up dont spend big probably get relegated bank the money try and hold onto your players try and repeat the cycle keep banking the money till you can afford to stay up.
or
Don't sign the above, Sell all of your top players sack lots of CEO's, MD's whatever they are. Sack the manager. Replace him with the cheap alternative. Sell/release more players, replace them with kids and halfway through the season loanees.
They chose the second option now the question is why did they choose the second option. Was it to balance the books get the debt under control because it has not achieved that.
Was it to create lots of seperate businesses transfer the debt around and use some of the money from the sales of players to clear personal debts of some of the key investors of SISU before biting the bullet and selling the club for next to nothing to the Hoff or allowing the club to go into administration. In which case they dont have to worry about the long term effect on the club of another relegation.
Or was to get relegated and some how we come back stronger? - can't see it as been that.
I personally think it was to minimise the impact of debts of certain key private investors before going into adminstration or transfering ownership over to the Hoff.
I think relegation under these circumstances is inevitable and blaming Thorn is preposterous.
I also think your badge says 'you dont need eyes to see you need vision' If they cared about Coventry like I think the Hoff will they would have had the vision of the West Brom model. Instead their alligiance and rightly so as they are investment bankers is to their main investors and their vision was how can we try to recoup as much money back for them and get out of this mess with a much damage limitation as we can so they continue to allow us to invest their money in other areas.
Nick
Administrator
What has that got to do with how good a scout Thorn is? Surely if he was an amazing scout he would be able to bring in amazing players for little money?
Our team is either amazing because Thorn was involved with most of them or it isn't? If it is amazing, surely Thorn is a bad manager because of where we are?
Our team is either amazing because Thorn was involved with most of them or it isn't? If it is amazing, surely Thorn is a bad manager because of where we are?
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Too black and white.
The only way you will ever know that is if a another manager takes over who is on comparable wages to Thorn in the same set of circumstances and see if they get the team up to mid table with 2 signings, kids then a couple of loanees (half way through the season when it is too late) in exhange for 10 senior pros (approx)
You think other managers would be able to do it
I think Thorn is over achieving as we still have a chance
We will never know the truth so we would just go round in circles
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
As to whether he is a good scout I keep saying you judge that by the players he has recommended to the club. I listed off a whole host I players I think he recommended who are quality a lot of whome have now been moved on.
I dont hold a great importance on where he found them as you do. I think he role is watch them and decide if we can afford them, if they can be developed and if we should sign them
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
It isn't Thorn's spot as in he didn't bring him to the country but that isn't what scouting is just all about.
Thorn rejected loan strikers coming in because they weren't fit or they wouldn't suit our style of play which shows that a player won't be coming in unless he will fit into the side so if Thorn didn't think Nimely would fit in here he wouldn't have been bought in.
Nimely was good scouting for the reasons I said the post before, it didn't work for him at Borough but Thorn saw the qualities in the player that Borough could not and how to get more out of him. Borough obviously didn't see enough in him as they didn't even attempt to renew his loan.
What doesn't make sense to me is when Nimely first signed the majority of posts were
"Why are we signing him, he was rubbish at Borough, rubbish signing, shit scouting"
Then when he shows to be a decent player people say
"He is a Man City reserve, obviously he will be good"
Nick
Administrator
I didnt say he was rubbish? What i dont get is how thorn is over achieving when the team is mostly his?
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Correction our team would be amazing if SISU hadn't sold the majority of them for $$$, or if SISU had stumped up cash to reportedly sign some of the players we could have.
Nobody gets it right 100% of the time, we have been stripped to a few good players and with all the duds scouted like Baker/Bell/ROD.
That said I don't think Thorn is a good manager.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean specifically you, you are not stupid surely you get my point about how Nimely was a good piece of scouting by the club and Thorn?
Nick
Administrator
Im not saying he is rubbish either with Gunnar a good example! Just think people really do see him in a strange way!
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Fair comment