Do be fair to Thorn he attracts good loan signings... (1 Viewer)

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Im not saying he is rubbish either with Gunnar a good example! Just think people really do see him in a strange way!

I agree, I am not trying to say he is best either it is just everytime his scouting gets questioned I hear he scouted the current squad which isn't a fair measurement of his scouting abilities. A better reflection on his scouting abilities would be a squad of all players scouted by Thorn regardless of if they are still at the club.
The squad has been stripped to a few good players left, dud scouted by Thorn and academy players.

 

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[dongonzalos]

I didnt say he was rubbish? What i dont get is how thorn is over achieving when the team is mostly his?

I have given my view on this one aswell. He has very rarely has been able to play his strongest 11. Which should have included Juke. He brings in the best replacements he is allowed to bring in under the circumstances and the squad is filled with kids, usually a squad is supplemented with the odd kid. Unless the kids are that good that they are the norm not the luxury (Christie~). However I dont think it is a case that Thorn said Bigi, Thomas, Wilis, Jeffers, Ruffles, Wilson and Phillips are better than any player I can sign so let them be in my squad an at times let them be the only players on my bench. I think this situation was created by SISU. So with the players SISU have sole realeased with the small squad of senior pros Thorn has had at his disposal. With injuries to Mcdonald, Clingan, Mcpake. With Turner and Juke getting sold and Mcpake spitting out his dummy.
I think the fact we are not yet relegated is an over achievement

 

[Gaz]

Keogh - Player of the year for a team the league below, obvious he would do well surely?
Westwood - See above
I am pretty sure I could load football manager up and find players that could develop and improve us...
.

LMFAO !

ROFLCOPTER on it's way


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......<ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL>.
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.\\...............|'-|--| .\\....\.....
..\ \_...........|--|---|..\\ ....\....
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../ /.............\_________ ,/....
.//.............____//___ __\\__/.

 

[dongonzalos]

I agree, I am not trying to say he is best either it is just everytime his scouting gets questioned I hear he scouted the current squad which isn't a fair measurement of his scouting abilities. A better reflection on his scouting abilities would be a squad of all players scouted by Thorn regardless of if they are still at the club.
The squad has been stripped to a few good players left, dud scouted by Thorn and academy players.

Exactly and I think more people think Bell and Baker are not good signings than those who think they are, so even though I dont have this opinion it seems the majority does.
Mcdonald and Heeman are grey grey areas.
Then you have the good scoutings Westwood, Dann, Fox, Henderson, Nimeley, Gunnar, Deegan, Gardner, Juke, Cranie, Keough, Hussey. Cork.
Those we know about that were not signed Carroll

Overall I think a clear picture is painted.

 

[Nick]

Did Gardner do much? Did we not play him out of position?

What i meant by football manager that how hard is it to discover an England under 21 international?

If players come up on the loan list or get offered about we will take them.

Why are people banging on about carroll? Did thorn discover him? No

Did we have the money for him? No

I can say I spotted somebody like Rooney but we dont have the money!

Why didnt he find somebody we could afford who was good? Surely that is good scouting?

Some people are happy with how everything is, our players and manager are all great! Sisus fault we are going down!

 

[dongonzalos]

Did Gardner do much? Did we not play him out of position?

What i meant by football manager that how hard is it to discover an England under 21 international?

If players come up on the loan list or get offered about we will take them.

Why are people banging on about carroll? Did thorn discover him? No

Did we have the money for him? No

I can say I spotted somebody like Rooney but we dont have the money!

Why didnt he find somebody we could afford who was good? Surely that is good scouting?

Some people are happy with how everything is, our players and manager are all great! Sisus fault we are going down!

Well if he did base his scouting for Cranie just on the fact he was a England u21 player. Which I think it is highly unlikely but lets say he did then if we remove Cranie he still comes up trumps

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Did Gardner do much? Did we not play him out of position?

What i meant by football manager that how hard is it to discover an England under 21 international?

If players come up on the loan list or get offered about we will take them. (1)

Why are people banging on about carroll? Did thorn discover him? No (2)

Did we have the money for him? No

I can say I spotted somebody like Rooney but we dont have the money!

Why didnt he find somebody we could afford who was good? (3) Surely that is good scouting?

Some people are happy with how everything is, our players and manager are all great! Sisus fault we are going down!

1) Why are you ignoring the facts? Thorn has stated he has rejected 2 strikers coming in on loan for one reason or another.
2) People use him as an example as Thorn had him identified when he was an unknown, Newcastle were prepared to let him go for 1 million, the fact they were willing to sell would suggest they didn't rate him greatly at the time.
3) Trying to scout players that require a transfer fee and want wages is becoming increasingly difficult at Coventry, I guess with Carroll they believed they had found a bargain and thought SISU may make an exception/provide funds for the transfer.

I agree with you on Gardner, I wouldn't really credit Thorn with that one as Carsley had a huge influence on bringing him in. I also agree it was odd him playing DM but we had injuries at the time.

I don't think Thorn is a good manager but it is largelys SISUs fault if we get relegated. If we had not sold Juke, Turner kept King and Gunnar we would not be going down. Thorn has been sold short by the board but he still hasn't done a good enough job.

 

[@richh87]

Just a question ........ did we have a network of scouts working under AT as head scout ? if so who spotted who ? not a dig at AT btw

Its one thing spotting quite another signing a player - and it isnt guaranteed some of the names mentioned would ever have chosen to come here. Press reports from Sunderland for example said they were never going to sell at that point

SISU don't even allow us to pay for a fitness coach full time - so how likely is It that there's a scouting network?

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

Why are people banging on about carroll? Did thorn discover him? No

Did we have the money for him? No

I can say I spotted somebody like Rooney but we dont have the money!

I think we tried to sign Caroll when he was under the radar at loan at Preston. Before Newcastle and the rest of the country discovered how good he actually was.

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

SISU don't even allow us to pay for a fitness coach full time - so how likely is It that there's a scouting network?

Wasn't Thorn driving round the country in a shitty car that recently packed it in? I bet they didn't even pay his petrol

 

[Nick]

I think we tried to sign Caroll when he was under the radar at loan at Preston. Before Newcastle and the rest of the country discovered how good he actually was.

Surely Newcastle knew he was good to sign him and Preston for loaning him?

Thorn saying he rejected two loans is when he gets offered them he says no thanks, I think behind the scenes with agents there are players being touted all the time.

Like I said, Gunnar and Deegan were great scouting but people are making out he discovered Caroll and Gardner like he is a genius!!

 

[Grendel]

Perhaps he was scouting for Preston and Newcastle as well.

 

[Sick Boy]

Carroll and Henderson were offered around to a host of Championship clubs, not just us.

Dann & Fox joined the club before Thorn did as well.

 

[skybluesam1994]

Whoever made this thread is clueless, it wasn't thorn who found nimely and norwood. It was steve waggot. All thorn did was say yes. We could have had many more loan signings but it is through thorns own stubborness that he had rejected all the players offered to him. His excuse about that striker not being fit was a huge mistake. We might as well accept relegation now if he thinks platt on his own up there is enough to save us. Why not take a punt on that player?! Surely he's more fit than freddy and we desperately need a goalscorer as shown at forest as we lacked that final presence of a natural goalscorer. We have a bit of money to take a few cheap loans yet it is thorns fault in not taking him. With thorn we are down. And to all the people who are pro thorn, of course I would like him to do well as I don't want to see my team doing shit but he's not doing well and he's had his time and we need someone who knows more tactically to try to keep us up.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Whoever made this thread is clueless, it wasn't thorn who found nimely and norwood. It was steve waggot. All thorn did was say yes. We could have had many more loan signings but it is through thorns own stubborness that he had rejected all the players offered to him. His excuse about that striker not being fit was a huge mistake. We might as well accept relegation now if he thinks platt on his own up there is enough to save us. Why not take a punt on that player?! Surely he's more fit than freddy and we desperately need a goalscorer as shown at forest as we lacked that final presence of a natural goalscorer. We have a bit of money to take a few cheap loans yet it is thorns fault in not taking him. With thorn we are down. And to all the people who are pro thorn, of course I would like him to do well as I don't want to see my team doing shit but he's not doing well and he's had his time and we need someone who knows more tactically to try to keep us up.

Absolute rubbish. I can't even begin to pull that insanity apart as I don't know where to begin

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

This threading a bit inane though. Consider one simple thing. None of us know the names Thorn had put to the various guises of the board.

However, there's one thing we do know. That we pay the bottom three wages in the league.

Whoever we look at, other teams will also be looking at. They will, of course, offer better terms. Shall I give you an example, Drinkwater to Barnsley, and now Leicester.

Footballers are mercenary, with short careers. They follow the cash.

You pay bottom three wages, you get bottom three players. You have bottom three players - barring miracles - you end up in the bottom three

 

[dongonzalos]

was trying to find the date Thorn Joined all I can find is 2008 (not sure if it was start or end of the season, I believe Dann and Fox were signed in January 2008. I did find this though when looking which backs the view that Thorn is doing well in that we are not detatched at the bottom

"He's gone into a difficult situation at Coventry where they have had to get rid of their highest-earning players and he has had to work with a young group of players.
"I'm sure that, with the inexperienced squad he has got, they are doing well not to be detached at the bottom of the table."
Coventry have won just two of their opening 16 npower Championship fixtures so far, but Downes believes he can guide a young Sky Blues squad to safety, providing he is given the time and resources to do so.
"He has got good knowledge of the game. What he needs is a little bit of backing to get a couple more players in because, looking at the ages of the players who featured in their last game, they are very inexperienced.
"Having said that, it is good to get the youngsters working for you and running for you. It's a double-edged sword and a difficult first job for Andy, but he's making a fist of it and the players are working for him."

This is from Wally Downes who has been in the game a while

 

[skybluesam1994]

Absolute rubbish. I can't even begin to pull that insanity apart as I don't know where to begin

Oh please indulge me mary. How is what I said anything other than the truth?

 

[Nick]

This threading a bit inane though. Consider one simple thing. None of us know the names Thorn had put to the various guises of the board.

However, there's one thing we do know. That we pay the bottom three wages in the league.

Whoever we look at, other teams will also be looking at. They will, of course, offer better terms. Shall I give you an example, Drinkwater to Barnsley, and now Leicester.

Footballers are mercenary, with short careers. They follow the cash.

You pay bottom three wages, you get bottom three players. You have bottom three players - barring miracles - you end up in the bottom three

It is not always the case though, do we think Norwich have a bigger wage budget than QPR and Villa? Look where they are in the table. I put that down to having a great manager who has found some decent footballers for not much at all.

Do Forest have a smaller wage bill than most of the league?

I do agree that we don't know 100% who Thorn has scouted and who he hasn't, all just going off speculation.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Whoever made this thread is clueless, it wasn't thorn who found nimely and norwood. It was steve waggot. All thorn did was say yes. We could have had many more loan signings but it is through thorns own stubborness that he had rejected all the players offered to him. His excuse about that striker not being fit was a huge mistake. We might as well accept relegation now if he thinks platt on his own up there is enough to save us. Why not take a punt on that player?! Surely he's more fit than freddy and we desperately need a goalscorer as shown at forest as we lacked that final presence of a natural goalscorer. We have a bit of money to take a few cheap loans yet it is thorns fault in not taking him. With thorn we are down. And to all the people who are pro thorn, of course I would like him to do well as I don't want to see my team doing shit but he's not doing well and he's had his time and we need someone who knows more tactically to try to keep us up.

Okay,what proof do you have it was Steve Waggot who 'found' Nimely and Norwood? He is Charlton's ex-exec, brought in to assist with the commercial side of buying and selling players. Did you hear Thorn on the radio when Jutkiewitz was being sold to Boro? He hadn't got a clue what was going on. Why? Because he's detached from the commercial negotiations. I suggest to you that Thorn, or those working with him, find the players they want, and Waggott is charged with the commercial aspects of bringing any 'wish list' to the club. Waggott doesn't 'find' the players.

That's just your first line that now looks stupid, and I really can't muster the energy to tell you why wasting what precious little resources we may have on a player who's been out all season isn't the smartest move ever made

 

[skybluesam1994]

I'm talking about the players signed this season as he is actually currently our manager not chief scout anymore. It has been steve waggot for nimely and norwood and not him. And it was thorn who chose cody mcdonald as waggot wasn't there yet. If your so sure that thorns so good at spotting talent then why should he not go back to chief scout? As he has showed he has had no managerial success. Yes we are obviously going to go for the players on the least paid wages possible but there are plenty of these players who have been offered to thorn and he has had enough money to take them but has chose not to. When thorn does eventually get sacked (probs at the end of the season now as we need to spend the money we've got on new loan signings rather than paying for a new manager and an assistant manager whilst paying off thorn and harrison). Thorn will make excuses about sisu not giving him funds for loans when really its through his own stubborn and ignorant attitude that players have not been coming in

 

[Nick]

Downes believes he can guide a young Sky Blues squad to safety, providing he is given the time and resources to do so.

This is from Wally Downes who has been in the game a while

Surely he will know that we don't have time or resources if he has been in the game for a while? It is like me saying that so and so could save us IF it was the start of the season AND he had a big budget

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

It is not always the case though, do we think Norwich have a bigger wage budget than QPR and Villa? Look where they are in the table. I put that down to having a great manager who has found some decent footballers for not much at all.

Do Forest have a smaller wage bill than most of the league?

I do agree that we don't know 100% who Thorn has scouted and who he hasn't, all just going off speculation.

But Nick, we've been over this same one a million and one times. Money doesn't ensure success. But there's a huge correlatin between cash invested and return. Across every league in envy division in the world.

Some managers underperform. Cotterill. Other managers over perform. Ferguson at Posh. However, such managers are at the edges.

Given the wages we pay, to do any better than to finish in the bottom three - consummate with the funds we invest in the playing side - would to be to expect, not hope, but expect a rookie manager to over perform from the start.

Do we have a realistic right to expect that?

 

[stupot07]

You haven't factored in the significance of the confidence factor from being promoted - the big test will be next tricky second season syndrome.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Second_season_syndrome&mobileaction=view_normal_site

We're not riding on the back of success, in fact we've had no success for 25 years.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I'm talking about the players signed this season as he is actually currently our manager not chief scout anymore. It has been steve waggot for nimely and norwood and not him. And it was thorn who chose cody mcdonald as waggot wasn't there yet. If your so sure that thorns so good at spotting talent then why should he not go back to chief scout? As he has showed he has had no managerial success. Yes we are obviously going to go for the players on the least paid wages possible but there are plenty of these players who have been offered to thorn and he has had enough money to take them but has chose not to. When thorn does eventually get sacked (probs at the end of the season now as we need to spend the money we've got on new loan signings rather than paying for a new manager and an assistant manager whilst paying off thorn and harrison). Thorn will make excuses about sisu not giving him funds for loans when really its through his own stubborn and ignorant attitude that players have not been coming in

I simply give in. That's not to bow to the knee of your sharpened intellect, but because I can't be bothered to waste precious shavings of my life on trying to convince you anything other than our mess is a function of a number of issues; and simply not Thorn's stupidity, stubbornness, and ignorance.

Your life must be so simple and binary. One day hot, next day cold. One day happy, next one sad. One day hot dinner, followed by cold dinner.....

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

Surely Newcastle knew he was good to sign him and Preston for loaning him?

Thorn saying he rejected two loans is when he gets offered them he says no thanks, I think behind the scenes with agents there are players being touted all the time.

Like I said, Gunnar and Deegan were great scouting but people are making out he discovered Caroll and Gardner like he is a genius!!

The point I was making was just that judging on how far he's come since, it was a good shout. He wasn't setting the world alight at Preston and Newcastle were ready to let him go.

 

[Nick]

But Nick, we've been over this same one a million and one times. Money doesn't ensure success. But there's a huge correlatin between cash invested and return. Across every league in envy division in the world.

Some managers underperform. Cotterill. Other managers over perform. Ferguson at Posh. However, such managers are at the edges.

Given the wages we pay, to do any better than to finish in the bottom three - consummate with the funds we invest in the playing side - would to be to expect, not hope, but expect a rookie manager to over perform from the start.

Do we have a realistic right to expect that?

But you just said if you pay the bottom 3 wages then you will be in the bottom 3? Of course West Ham have a big wage bill so are up there, they also have a good manager!

IT would be interesting to compare Southampton's wages with Forest for example.

My point is, surely if Thorn was an amazing scout as some people make out, he would be able to get us a Grant Holt for peanuts with small wages.

Nobody knows 100% what happens behind the scenes though do they?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

But you just said if you pay the bottom 3 wages then you will be in the bottom 3? Of course West Ham have a big wage bill so are up there, they also have a good manager!

IT would be interesting to compare Southampton's wages with Forest for example.

My point is, surely if Thorn was an amazing scout as some people make out, he would be able to get us a Grant Holt for peanuts with small wages.

Nobody knows 100% what happens behind the scenes though do they?

I agree, none of us know everything.

However, I do return to the crux of the point I make, namely the correlation between funds invested in the playing squad, and results produced. Yes, it's not absolute, but to expect anything else is to expect the manager to overperform. Which isn't fair from a rookie manager.

You are right to be in admiration of Norwich, Lambert and Holt. Amazing what can be done when you don't change manager every season and not sell your leading goalscorer season after season, eh? ;-)

 

[Sick Boy]

But you just said if you pay the bottom 3 wages then you will be in the bottom 3? Of course West Ham have a big wage bill so are up there, they also have a good manager!

IT would be interesting to compare Southampton's wages with Forest for example.

My point is, surely if Thorn was an amazing scout as some people make out, he would be able to get us a Grant Holt for peanuts with small wages.

Nobody knows 100% what happens behind the scenes though do they?

I didn't realise Swansea & Norwich have one of the biggest budgets in the Premier League as well!

 

[dongonzalos]

But Nick, we've been over this same one a million and one times. Money doesn't ensure success. But there's a huge correlatin between cash invested and return. Across every league in envy division in the world.

Some managers underperform. Cotterill. Other managers over perform. Ferguson at Posh. However, such managers are at the edges.

Given the wages we pay, to do any better than to finish in the bottom three - consummate with the funds we invest in the playing side - would to be to expect, not hope, but expect a rookie manager to over perform from the start.

Do we have a realistic right to expect that?

Bang on cracking post

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Hey Nick - here's a funny one. You know your old mate Paul Lambert? Doing wonders at Norwich and one of the most converted managers in British football? Know how he got along with his first managerial job?

Livingston. 32 games, and a win percentage of 15.6%

That makes Thorn's tenure look like Pep Guardiola ;-)

Maybe he might get another chance somewhere elsewhere after all...

 

[Nick]

This thread was down to his scouting and how Nimely and Norwood only came here because of him rather than his managerial skills though and how Thorn discovered Carroll and Henderson.

I gave Lambert as an example of somebody doing well with a small wage budget, hardly my mate Was just in reply to the "If you have bottom 3 wages you will be in the bottom 3" comment. I am hardly hanging out of the back of him like people do with Thorn when he can do no wrong?

Plus that percentage is only a tiny bit lower than Thorn's from this season isn't it? 36 games and 6 wins, isnt that about 16% or so? Hardly a big increase is it?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

This thread was down to his scouting and how Nimely and Norwood only came here because of him rather than his managerial skills though and how Thorn discovered Carroll and Henderson.

I gave Lambert as an example of somebody doing well with a small wage budget, hardly my mate

Plus that percentage is only a tiny bit lower than Thorn's from this season isn't it? 36 games and 6 wins, isnt that about 16% or so? Hardly a big increase is it?

I am aware of the thread origins. I just get vexed as there are many in here who take time and effort to offer a considered view. Some put much research into posts which try and give a context to the position we are in as a foundation for true debate. The reality of our wages structure against our peers, our use of youngsters in comparison with the balance of the division, etc. When people digest such, and then debate from a position of considered measure, then that's great. However, when that's not the case, it's hard not to get frustrated.

The official site doesn't list a chiel scout. Newspaper reports after Thorn was given the full-time role suggest he would be doing both roles. We are told Steve Waggott (an ex-Chief Exec) was brought in to assist buying and selling of players. Even when Thorn had the full time role as scout, we have no idea who he suggested for signing or loaning.

All conjecture and guesswork. It's annoying when a view, or guess is quoted as sacrosanct fact though; especially when used in support of a view on Thorn's tenure that ignores all of the peripheral points people are airing as I elude to in my first paragraph.

As for Lambert. Great manager. Didn't do so much at first. Many don't. Which harks back to the expectation element I've mentioned earlier

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

this is dongozalas 2nd account, or 3rd or 4th if you include torch and NLHWC

jsut here to wum

You cheeky bastard! I am a mate of Torchomatic but I can assure you we are not the same person. dongozalas has a few whiffs of Howzer about him, but is generally more polite, logical and..well, less insane.

 

[Nick]

Yep, Torchy and NLHWC are different people.