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Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (29 Viewers)

  • Thread starter BackRoomRummermill
  • Start date Feb 23, 2020
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Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,716
Another huge issue had already rocked public confidence. On 25 January, a German-language business newspaper, Handelsblatt, ran a front-page story. “AstraZeneca vaccine apparently hardly effective in seniors,” said the headline. Efficacy in the over-65s, the age group most at risk of dying from Covid, was only 8%, the article claimed..

Advertisement

Handelsblatt’s sources were not in the German government. Its journalists had been speaking to regulators and vaccine advisers. The figure turned out to be inaccurate – and taken out of context.

There were too few elderly people in the early trials, because the Oxford academics did not want to expose them to risks. And if you have too few people in a trial, the results you get are not reliable. There was simply not enough evidence to prove how well the vaccine worked in the over-65s.

Handelsblatt acknowledged that there was too little data, but that was lost in the ensuing row.

Within days, Stiko, Germany’s vaccination advisory panel, said it would not recommend the vaccine for the over-65s because of the lack of evidence that it worked for them. In France, President Macron said the jab was “quasi-ineffective” in the over-65s.

Within weeks, Macron was forced to say publicly that he would have the jab himself – and by early March it had been approved by France for the over-65s. But the damage had been done.

Bell says you can get only limited data from vaccine trials – you have to see what happens “in the real world. The studies are different, the clinical trial populations are different, the type of virus that people are being exposed to is different. The outcomes are all different”.

“And yet throughout Europe we had lots of these little so-called expert committees saying: ‘Oh God, you can’t use it in the over-50s, oh God, you can’t use it in the under-50s. You can’t use it at all. Well, maybe you could use it if you’re upside down, drinking a milkshake.’ It was unbelievable.”

Real-world data eventually proved that the vaccine worked very well in older people. But it also revealed a serious problem in a tiny minority of younger people. On 7 March, Austria suspended the use of a batch of the vaccine aftera woman of 49 died and another aged 35 became seriously ill with blood disorders shortly after inoculation.

As Covid cases continued to surge,the European Medicines Agency (EMA) said the benefits outweighed the risks, but launched an investigation.

Prof Marie Scully’s first case was admitted to University College hospital, London, in the UK on the weekend of 6-7 March. A young, healthy woman in her 30s had blood clots on the brain and low platelets. “It was most unusual,” said Scully, a consultant haematologist. “We use vaccines all our life. Why would the AZ vaccine suddenly cause this situation?”

But it did, the EMA and MHRA eventually ruled, albeit in only four in a million cases. It was enough for many European countries to restrict the vaccine’s use.
 
Reactions: wingy

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,717
Grendel said:
No he and the German press said it was rubbish and would more than likely mean you may as well inject yourself with water

If Johnson had said that the Pfizer vaccine was a rubbish thing avoid it as you cannot than have a real vaccine what would you do?
Click to expand...
Personally I’d assume it’s rubbish for the simple fact it’s Boris saying it.
 

COV

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,718
Grendel said:
No he and the German press said it was rubbish and would more than likely mean you may as well inject yourself with water

If Johnson had said that the Pfizer vaccine was a rubbish thing avoid it as you cannot than have a real vaccine what would you do?
Click to expand...

bad example, I along with so many others automatically assume that anything Johnson says is bullshit.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,719
COV said:
bad example, I along with so many others automatically assume that anything Johnson says is bullshit.
Click to expand...

Was Macron talking bullshit?
 

COV

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,720
Grendel said:
Another huge issue had already rocked public confidence. On 25 January, a German-language business newspaper, Handelsblatt, ran a front-page story. “AstraZeneca vaccine apparently hardly effective in seniors,” said the headline. Efficacy in the over-65s, the age group most at risk of dying from Covid, was only 8%, the article claimed..

Advertisement

Handelsblatt’s sources were not in the German government. Its journalists had been speaking to regulators and vaccine advisers. The figure turned out to be inaccurate – and taken out of context.

There were too few elderly people in the early trials, because the Oxford academics did not want to expose them to risks. And if you have too few people in a trial, the results you get are not reliable. There was simply not enough evidence to prove how well the vaccine worked in the over-65s.

Handelsblatt acknowledged that there was too little data, but that was lost in the ensuing row.

Within days, Stiko, Germany’s vaccination advisory panel, said it would not recommend the vaccine for the over-65s because of the lack of evidence that it worked for them. In France, President Macron said the jab was “quasi-ineffective” in the over-65s.

Within weeks, Macron was forced to say publicly that he would have the jab himself – and by early March it had been approved by France for the over-65s. But the damage had been done.

Bell says you can get only limited data from vaccine trials – you have to see what happens “in the real world. The studies are different, the clinical trial populations are different, the type of virus that people are being exposed to is different. The outcomes are all different”.

“And yet throughout Europe we had lots of these little so-called expert committees saying: ‘Oh God, you can’t use it in the over-50s, oh God, you can’t use it in the under-50s. You can’t use it at all. Well, maybe you could use it if you’re upside down, drinking a milkshake.’ It was unbelievable.”

Real-world data eventually proved that the vaccine worked very well in older people. But it also revealed a serious problem in a tiny minority of younger people. On 7 March, Austria suspended the use of a batch of the vaccine aftera woman of 49 died and another aged 35 became seriously ill with blood disorders shortly after inoculation.

As Covid cases continued to surge,the European Medicines Agency (EMA) said the benefits outweighed the risks, but launched an investigation.

Prof Marie Scully’s first case was admitted to University College hospital, London, in the UK on the weekend of 6-7 March. A young, healthy woman in her 30s had blood clots on the brain and low platelets. “It was most unusual,” said Scully, a consultant haematologist. “We use vaccines all our life. Why would the AZ vaccine suddenly cause this situation?”

But it did, the EMA and MHRA eventually ruled, albeit in only four in a million cases. It was enough for many European countries to restrict the vaccine’s use.
Click to expand...

christ, we’re onto this flag waving nationalist stuff
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,721
COV said:
christ, we’re onto this flag waving nationalist stuff
Click to expand...

Its an extract from an article in the Guardian
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,722
CCFCSteve said:
As Dog says though there’s one thing hoarding, which appears to have happened in US and Europe, there’s another claiming a vaccine is quasi effective/may not work
Click to expand...
But there is evidence,no?
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,723
wingy said:
But there is evidence,no?
Click to expand...

Evidence that AZ doesn’t work ?
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,724
wingy said:
But there is evidence,no?
Click to expand...
There isn’t no
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,725
CCFCSteve said:
Evidence that AZ doesn’t work ?
Click to expand...
That it's less effective among the old,basing that on evidence it doesn't generate as high level of antibodies ,as evidenced,or also the presentation of the original data from the initial studies/trials.
Wording from him possibly questionable but based on these I think.
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,726
Sky Blue Pete said:
There isn’t no
Click to expand...
There is.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,727
wingy said:
That it's less effective among the old,basing that on evidence it doesn't generate as high level of antibodies ,as evidenced,or also the presentation of the original data from the initial studies/trials.
Wording from him possibly questionable but based on these I think.
Click to expand...

No he based it on the German article which focussed on the fact that it hadn't tested many in a specific age group - the evidence is very clear from the amount now dying vs infections its as effective as the studies proved
 
Reactions: fernandopartridge
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,728
Grendel said:
No he based it on the German article which focussed on the fact that it hadn't tested many in a specific age group - the evidence is very clear from the amount now dying vs infections its as effective as the studies proved
Click to expand...
Yes we can see that now but not necessarily back then.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,729
Those defending the US are forgetting this it seems:

Fauci apologises for saying UK 'rushed' vaccine

After apparent criticism from the US expert, the UK defended the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.
www.bbc.com

Let’s not pretend this was some evil EU thing. Not everything is Brexit.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy and COV

COV

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,730
shmmeee said:
Those defending the US are forgetting this it seems:

Fauci apologises for saying UK 'rushed' vaccine

After apparent criticism from the US expert, the UK defended the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.
www.bbc.com

Let’s not pretend this was some evil EU thing. Not everything is Brexit.
Click to expand...

amazing how literally everything gets spun into “those nasty Europeans v us”
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,731
shmmeee said:
Those defending the US are forgetting this it seems:

Fauci apologises for saying UK 'rushed' vaccine

After apparent criticism from the US expert, the UK defended the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.
www.bbc.com

Let’s not pretend this was some evil EU thing. Not everything is Brexit.
Click to expand...
There's also a difference between the no evidence it works (normal not to use in those instances) and the active negative, where Macron was indeed unhelpful. Of course, Merkel took the AZ one herself, so it's not 'Europe' per se. We also no longer use in under 40s, because of perceived risks.

And it's those which, to an outsider (and some insiders, who started waiting for Pfizer before getting their jab!) end up with a reluctance in certain overseas countries to use it.

I'm not defending that, but that is how it is. It may be slightly radical, but I'm not convinced openness and transparency about things like the blood clotting risk is helpful. It's a small risk, smaller than certain everyday medicines, but it's been played out in public and therefore undermines confidence. If we, then, stop using AZ for under 40s, it can indeed make the rest of the world think they have our cast-offs.

Which in the long run, is more of a risk than the clotting risk!
 
Reactions: Dog
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,732
wingy said:
That it's less effective among the old,basing that on evidence it doesn't generate as high level of antibodies ,as evidenced,or also the presentation of the original data from the initial studies/trials.
Wording from him possibly questionable but based on these I think.
Click to expand...

From memory his comments were based on a misunderstanding of the data reports. Whether he had ulterior motives as well I’m not sure. Basically at the time there wasn’t the same level of trials undertaken for oldest age groups ie the data just wants there. This was jumped on by a paper (*German I think) and then subsequently by Macron saying the data suggests it doesn’t work as well for old people, when it was just that the data wasn’t there support a view either way. Various scientists and JVCI said there is no reason why it wouldn’t work as well across all age groups. This wasn’t a comparison between vaccine, just talking about AZ

Subsequently, I think Pfizer has proven to be stronger, particularly against Delta variant, which wasn’t around at the time of those comments, however, both vaccines have proven to protect nearly everyone (90%+) from severe illness or death

*Edit - not blaming the Germans before anyone gets upset, was just commenting from memory that that’s where the newspaper that reported the misinformation was from. Just seen Grendels post which I talks about same thing
 
Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
Reactions: Dog

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,733
COV said:
amazing how literally everything gets spun into “those nasty Europeans v us”
Click to expand...

Amazing how you think the Guardian health editor is a tub thumping nationalist

I did ask was Macron talking bullshit - amazing you have not answered

Amazing how you appear on a thread when a EU negative is thrown out and then hide (or change username) when the going gets tough

Was your previous username Ring of Steel? The pro EU advocate who said England (not Britain) was a deeply racist country?
 
Reactions: wingy
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,734
shmmeee said:
Those defending the US are forgetting this it seems:

Fauci apologises for saying UK 'rushed' vaccine

After apparent criticism from the US expert, the UK defended the safety and efficacy of the vaccine.
www.bbc.com

Let’s not pretend this was some evil EU thing. Not everything is Brexit.
Click to expand...

Not sure anyone’s defended the US Shmmeee ? I said their conduct was questionable at the same time as commenting on Macron. Everyone then jumped in to say ‘yeah, but US is worse’…I think the behaviour of both has been pretty disgusting
 
Reactions: shmmeee, Dog and wingy
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,735
I think without being a heretic you also have to factor in onwards transmission ,which I doubt very much was what Macron was basing it on as the evidence wasn't there for that .
Don't know how it's stacking up currently but the initial pzhiser data out of Israel was extremely favourably solid.
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,736
CCFCSteve said:
Not sure anyone’s defended the US Shmmeee ? I said their conduct was questionable at the same time as commenting on Macron. Everyone then jumped in to say ‘yeah, but US is worse’…I think the behaviour of both has been pretty disgusting
Click to expand...
You did.
 

Dog

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,737
COV said:
Struggling to see how denying people access to the vaccine isn’t worse than people talking crap about the vaccine
Click to expand...
Have they been denied the vaccines?

Don't you understand that Macron trying to make out the AZ didn't work made countless countries not give it out. Their people don't trust it because of Macron. Yet at the same time the makers of AZ were being threatened with court for not supplying what they said was promised (although it looks like it wasn't).

Lies from politicians is the norm these days. But this one has cost countless lives. Yet those who have a go at the anti vaxers then defend those who give out false information about vaccines if they are a politician they are aligned with. It happens on all sides. Some even try to defend Boris for everything he does.

It is like saying Pol Pot is OK because Hitler killed more.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,738
Deleted member 5849 said:
There's also a difference between the no evidence it works (normal not to use in those instances) and the active negative, where Macron was indeed unhelpful. Of course, Merkel took the AZ one herself, so it's not 'Europe' per se. We also no longer use in under 40s, because of perceived risks.

And it's those which, to an outsider (and some insiders, who started waiting for Pfizer before getting their jab!) end up with a reluctance in certain overseas countries to use it.

I'm not defending that, but that is how it is. It may be slightly radical, but I'm not convinced openness and transparency about things like the blood clotting risk is helpful. It's a small risk, smaller than certain everyday medicines, but it's been played out in public and therefore undermines confidence. If we, then, stop using AZ for under 40s, it can indeed make the rest of the world think they have our cast-offs.

Which in the long run, is more of a risk than the clotting risk!
Click to expand...

Agree about the clotting risk being played out and the messaging never really recovering, even when everyone tried to say that the risk from getting covid was far greater. This has just been jumped on by the nutters as well

Merkel took AZ first and then Moderna second, which probably didn’t really help. But I have no real issue with that as it’s personal choice and she’s got to do what’s right for her. I think my original point about the AZ misinformation stands, it’s been extremely harmful
 
Reactions: Dog
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,739
COV said:
christ, we’re onto this flag waving nationalist stuff
Click to expand...
I don't think this is ,it reads like a rational debrief on what actually happened .
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,740
wingy said:
You did.
Click to expand...

Defend US or question their conduct ? Hopefully you meant the later as I can’t defend US conduct with regard to the vaccines (and hopefully it didn’t come across that way)
 
Reactions: COV and wingy

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,741
I assume “COV”’ will reappear with another username shortly
 

COV

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,742
CCFCSteve said:
Agree about the clotting risk being played out and the messaging never really recovering, even when everyone tried to say that the risk from getting covid was far greater. This has just been jumped on by the nutters as well

Merkel took AZ first and then Moderna second, which probably didn’t really help. But I have no real issue with that as it’s personal choice and she’s got to do what’s right for her. I think my original point about the AZ misinformation stands, it’s been extremely harmful
Click to expand...

not as harmful as actually withholding the vaccine
 

Dog

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,743
COV said:
not as harmful as actually withholding the vaccine
Click to expand...

Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine: which countries have paused jab and why

Analysis: Germany, France, Spain and Italy head an expanding list of EU countries to have put its use on hold
www.theguardian.com
 

COV

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,744
Dog said:

Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine: which countries have paused jab and why

Analysis: Germany, France, Spain and Italy head an expanding list of EU countries to have put its use on hold
www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...

Ok so what am I missing here. I thought that the USA were stockpiling vaccine meaning that other countries were missing out. This is telling me that some other countries have paused the AZ vaccine due to real/ imaginary concerns- but people are still getting vaccinated so they’re not stockpiling. Have I got that wrong?
 

Dog

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,745
COV said:
Ok so what am I missing here. I thought that the USA were stockpiling vaccine meaning that other countries were missing out. This is telling me that some other countries have paused the AZ vaccine due to real/ imaginary concerns- but people are still getting vaccinated so they’re not stockpiling. Have I got that wrong?
Click to expand...
So it is disgusting to withhold the vaccine unless you are an EU country?

And Macron was a massive part of countries withholding vaccinations after saying that the AZ vaccine didn't work. And he carried on saying so even when corrected by his medical officers.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,746
Dog said:
And he carried on saying so even when corrected
Click to expand...
Sounds like an ideal candidate for the Tory party.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,747
COV said:
Ok so what am I missing here. I thought that the USA were stockpiling vaccine meaning that other countries were missing out. This is telling me that some other countries have paused the AZ vaccine due to real/ imaginary concerns- but people are still getting vaccinated so they’re not stockpiling. Have I got that wrong?
Click to expand...

was macron bullshitting?

I think the forum deserves an answer now
 

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,748
Sky Blue Pete said:
First time really affected other than helping as an nhs volunteer.

Both daughters positive. 10 days isolation for the rest of us to Sunday initially and then to Wednesday after second positive test. Hoping the rules will change about isolation on Monday for household close contacts as well as other close contacts

So missed a weeks singing holiday and won’t get to Devon till maybe later and potentially at all

Sister and nephew poorly now and sister has had both vaccines.

Mum and other sister isolating so a bit shit really

Good friend just died of cancer too so bit meh. Thanks for asking
Click to expand...

Take care mate. Hopefully a few more days and things will start to look a bit brighter.
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,749
Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Take care mate. Hopefully a few more days and things will start to look a bit brighter.
Click to expand...
Thanks mate
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Aug 11, 2021
  • #50,750
CCFCSteve said:
Not sure anyone’s defended the US Shmmeee ? I said their conduct was questionable at the same time as commenting on Macron. Everyone then jumped in to say ‘yeah, but US is worse’…I think the behaviour of both has been pretty disgusting
Click to expand...

Canada too IIRC. Lots of silly nationalism going around. We have some of the blame of course by insisting it’s branded the Oxford vaccine.
 
Reactions: COV
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