Are SISU bad owners? (2 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

They are bad owners but are not responsible for the deep mess we got into, that started long ago. I do applaud them for working towards making the club self-sufficent and ending the overinflated rate that we were paying to the council.

 

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[Sick Boy]

They took us over in the Championship, wrote off most of our debt, had the option to purchase half of our own ground.

We are now in L1, £70m+ in debt, ground sharing. Oh and we’ve dropped around 10k fans.

We've played out of our home city twice FFS! Of course they're bad owners.

We spent roughly £3m on transfers in the 2008/09 season. Why was that money not used to put a bid together for the Ricoh?

The fans' favourite Ranson decided it wasn't important and wroth buying.

They'd also have snapped up the Ricoh had it been offered to them for the same price London Wasps paid for it.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Not being paid though

But is sitting there accruing compound interest instead. They are payable and could be called in at any time the owners choose - we're relying on them not doing so.

It's like having a bomb in the corner and saying "it's fine, it's not going to go off". And then putting a hand grenade next to it every so often just for good measure.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

No they don't in the published accounts

It is the unpaid interest on the loans that is added to the debt

I know I saw at some stage a note to the accounts stating management fees were being paid to SISU. Probably weren't the most recent but I'm absolutely certain I saw it because it took me by surprise.

 

[Fergusons_Beard]

Another minor point... there was massive talk when SISU took over, of needing "hard-nosed businessmen" who wouldn't bow to fan pressure to overspend, would get the club back on a sounder financial footing, etc, and it would be a rocky road etc...

It could well be argued that this is what SISU provided (not by any means saying I agree with some of the methods used)…. but then when SISU then indeed acted like "hard nosed businessmen" and refused to bow to fan pressure, massive sections of our support decided they didn't like it...

Travs-point well made. There’s so many (mainly on FB page) that wants us to be spending millions on players and slag off SISU when they don’t!


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[Fergusons_Beard]

1. We are at St Andrews thanks to Wasps
2. Agree regarding Northampton. That should never have happened, however ask yourself; without it we would still be paying £1.2m a year rent to ACL. We would've been in a similar scenario to Bolton/Bury etc.. if we continued
3. Wasps swopped in becasue of CCC asking them to move to Coventry in March 2012. SISU and CCFC were still at the Ricoh at this point
4. Under Richardson we achieved one relgation, £60m of debt and sold Highfield Road. He is as much to blame as SISU

Nailed


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[shmmeee]

The fans' favourite Ranson decided it wasn't important and wroth buying.

They'd also have snapped up the Ricoh had it been offered to them for the same price London Wasps paid for it.

Prove it.

All the rhetoric from the club was “two turkeys don’t an eagle make” and “we’re building our own”.

Ridiculous revisionism. And maybe if they’d approached the purchase the same way Wasps did, with a modicum of understanding about what the seller wants, rather than allying with political fruit loops and throwing their toys out the pram, they’d have got a better deal.

Maybe if they weren’t still throwing their toys out the pram we’d be playing in Cov right now.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

The situation developing at both Bolton and Bury is the best PR SISU have ever had . Who would have thought we'd ever have a debate on here as to whether SISU were anything other than evil parasitic scum , and yet all of a sudden here we are.

 

[ceetee]

But is sitting there accruing compound interest instead. They are payable and could be called in at any time the owners choose - we're relying on them not doing so.

It's like having a bomb in the corner and saying "it's fine, it's not going to go off". And then putting a hand grenade next to it every so often just for good measure.

But even if the owners want to, they can't call the loans + interest in if the money isn't in the club to pay it.
If the club becomes rich enough to pay, it will mean it's in a much better place than it is now...........

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Prove it.

All the rhetoric from the club was “two turkeys don’t an eagle make” and “we’re building our own”.

Ridiculous revisionism. And maybe if they’d approached the purchase the same way Wasps did, with a modicum of understanding about what the seller wants, rather than allying with political fruit loops and throwing their toys out the pram, they’d have got a better deal.

Maybe if they weren’t still throwing their toys out the pram we’d be playing in Cov right now.

Hmmm. I would say it was only available at the price and terms Wasps got it at because of SISU's actions, and a more restrained negotiation wouldn't have seen the price reduce and lease extend as much as they did.

That doesn't, of course, make them good owners as we're still waiting for the promised stadium. Or, more realistically, we're still waiting for anything more than a generic drawing of our promised stadium - not even land or plans or any attempt to progress it.

We can argue the nuance of course all we like but, as the question on this thread was a blunt one, then the answer has to be yes, of course they're bad owners! The ah-buts don't stop that!

 

[ccfcway]

Yes.

 

[Sky Blue Harry H]

But even if the owners want to, they can't call the loans + interest in if the money isn't in the club to pay it.
If the club becomes rich enough to pay, it will mean it's in a much better place than it is now...........

It would make the club, harder to sell to a prospective buyer though (if SISU include that amount in their valuation)?

 

[shmmeee]

Hmmm. I would say it was only available at the price and terms Wasps got it at because of SISU's actions, and a more restrained negotiation wouldn't have seen the price reduce and lease extend as much as they did.

That doesn't, of course, make them good owners as we're still waiting for the promised stadium. Or, more realistically, we're still waiting for anything more than a generic drawing of our promised stadium - not even land or plans or any attempt to progress it.

We can argue the nuance of course all we like but, as the question on this thread was a blunt opne, then the answer has to be yes, of course they're bad owners! The ah-buts don't stop that!

Time will tell surely? If we end up owning the Ricoh and using that sweet sweet pie money to fire us to the Prem then they’re geniuses for their negotiating tactics.

I’m just saying right now, as it stands?

 

[ceetee]

It would make the club, harder to sell to a prospective buyer though (if SISU include that amount in their valuation)?

That depends on why they wanted to sell it.
If the club continues to lose money because transfer dealings can't keep up with running expenses, they might be glad to get out of it.
That does not seem to have been their motivation so far, but their attitude will surely change if the hope of compensation vanishes after all legal or EU investigations are exhausted.
Dealing with historic debt is one of the reasons that take-overs often fail, if my understanding is correct, and having a large debt may scare of predatory takeovers

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Time will tell surely? If we end up owning the Ricoh and using that sweet sweet pie money to fire us to the Prem then they’re geniuses for their negotiating tactics.

I’m just saying right now, as it stands?

I actually think their negotiating tactics were inventive, innovative, intelligent...

For a business.

And there's the problem. CCFC is a business, but it's so much more than that. Each time we argue the figures, we play into the SISU narrative, that takes the club away from the fans, and closer to the financial modellers.

And that makes them bad owners, the ever increasing distance between fans and club.

I've often been told how the reason there's less anti-SISU stuff on this site is because it's blindingly obvious they're shite, and we all nod sagely at that point. I'd like to believe that... but this thread should be a chorus of unequivocal agreement in that case! Of course things don't happen in a vacuum, of course it's daft to think it's all their fault, and of course there are some things they've done well.

But, in answer to the question, there's no answer other than yes, they've been atrocious owners, appalling, diabolically bad and we should be ashamed we've had to suffer them for as long as we have. There are rumours that even FIsher has called Joy bonkers, we could draw down a massive list of horrendous appoointments to the club board, and catastrophic decisions throughout.

 

[shmmeee]

I actually think their negotiating tactics were inventive, innovative, intelligent...

For a business.

And there's the problem. CCFC is a business, but it's so much more than that. Each time we argue the figures, we play into the SISU narrative, that takes the club away from the fans, and closer to the financial modellers.

And that makes them bad owners, the ever increasing distance between fans and club.

I've often been told how the reason there's less anti-SISU stuff on this site is because it's blindingly obvious they're shite, and we all nod sagely at that point. I'd like to believe that... but this thread should be a chorus of unequivocal agreement in that case! Of course things don't happen in a vacuum, of course it's daft to think it's all their fault, and of course there are some things they've done well.

But, in answer to the question, there's no answer other than yes, they've been atrocious owners, appalling, diabolically bad and we should be ashamed we've had to suffer them for as long as we have. There are rumours that even FIsher has called Joy bonkers, we could draw down a massive list of horrendous appoointments to the club board, and catastrophic decisions throughout.

For me the issue clear as day is that Joy had never dealt with government before. The fact she went to the likes of Les Reid and Nikki Morgan for help showed her political naivety. Anyone with even a passing understanding of politics, especially local politics, would’ve been able to tell her the bullshit that works in a hostile takeover or debt restructuring doesn’t work on an organisation that transcends normal economic rules.

There’s a reason lobbyists make out so well.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

For me the issue clear as day is that Joy had never dealt with government before. The fact she went to the likes of Les Reid and Nikki Morgan for help showed her political naivety. Anyone with even a passing understanding of politics, especially local politics, would’ve been able to tell her the bullshit that works in a hostile takeover or debt restructuring doesn’t work on an organisation that transcends normal economic rules.

I do agree to an extrent, although this ios where I do have a certain sympathy with SISU, that Mutton in poarticular made a number of statements that showed it was ideological; the fact SISU were a hedge fund was always going to be a problem. Having worked with institutions such as SISU, and also for local government, I can also fully understand how one side, with their myriad of meetings and need to approve everything, along with the associated 'changes of mind' that come with that, must be infuriating for someone who's used to workin g swiftly, decisively, and is completely her own boss.

I've also seen councils badly misread the value of their property portfolio, too. tbf to local government, a lot stems from national government pushing them to act in a certain way, to pay their way financially too... to act like a business, whilst not giving them the tools to do so. The stupidity was not working out that backing SISU into a corner was about the worst thing to do as, rather than give meekly in, there'd be a massive reaction - which we got!

There are extenuating circumstances for how we ended up here and, on other threads, we shouldn't forget that.

But... SISU are bad owners!

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

But is sitting there accruing compound interest instead. They are payable and could be called in at any time the owners choose - we're relying on them not doing so.

It's like having a bomb in the corner and saying "it's fine, it's not going to go off". And then putting a hand grenade next to it every so often just for good measure.

I don’t disagree

 

[ccfcway]

are we in a better position on the field since they took over ? - no, one league below
are we in a better position off the field since they took over ? - debt free / in debt to the owners
where is the field - birmingham

 

[Sick Boy]

Prove it.

All the rhetoric from the club was “two turkeys don’t an eagle make” and “we’re building our own”.

Ridiculous revisionism. And maybe if they’d approached the purchase the same way Wasps did, with a modicum of understanding about what the seller wants, rather than allying with political fruit loops and throwing their toys out the pram, they’d have got a better deal.

Maybe if they weren’t still throwing their toys out the pram we’d be playing in Cov right now.

Remind me, how much were the club quoted to buy access to food and drink revenue?

 

[Sick Boy]

are we in a better position on the field since they took over ? - no, one league below
are we in a better position off the field since they took over ? - debt free / in debt to the owners
where is the field - birmingham

I’m much more optimistic about on the field compared to when they took over. We were already struggling in the Championship. I kind of wish we’d gone down instead of Leicester that year/got Nigel Pearson rather than the clueless Coleman, I think we’d be in a healthier position

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We got Coleman because it's who Ranson, SISU's main advisor at the time wanted. He wanted him from the start. Even if Pearson (who I personally don't rate) or anyone else had been available he'd have still picked Coleman. I'd have even preferred Dowie to stay than get Coleman!

 

[ccfcway]

I’m much more optimistic about on the field compared to when they took over. We were already struggling in the Championship. I kind of wish we’d gone down instead of Leicester that year/got Nigel Pearson rather than the clueless Coleman, I think we’d be in a healthier position

Surely best case senerio with our current set up is very much struggling in championship ?.

Even with promotion, how can we compete with our crowds of v what the the likes of leeds, middlesborough, west brom, derby etc pay ?

 

[Sick Boy]

We got Coleman because it's who Ranson, SISU's main advisor at the time wanted. He wanted him from the start. Even if Pearson (who I personally don't rate) or anyone else had been available he'd have still picked Coleman. I'd have even preferred Dowie to stay than get Coleman!

Pearson didn’t do too badly a few years later with Leicester, did he? I still can’t believe after all of this some would welcome the likes of Ranson back to the club.

 

[Sick Boy]

Surely best case senerio with our current set up is very much struggling in championship ?.

Even with promotion, how can we compete with our crowds of v what the the likes of leeds, middlesborough, west brom, derby etc pay ?

And the tail end of the season they took over we nearly got relegated with that pathetic display away at Charlton.

And yes, we would struggle in the Championship but we didn’t have a ground to call our own when they took over. This is going to be what hinders us for years to come.

We need a ground of our own if we are to have serious aspirations

 

[NorthernWisdom]

And the tail end of the season they took over we nearly got relegated with that pathetic display away at Charlton.

And yes, we would struggle in the Championship but we didn’t have a ground to call our own when they took over. This is going to be what hinders us for years to come.

We need a ground of our own if we are to have serious aspirations

Shame SISU aren't the owners to deliver one.

 

[Sick Boy]

Shame SISU aren't the owners to deliver one.

I’m not saying they’re going to either I’d still much rather have them in charge than the likes of Ranson.

 

[ccfcway]

We need a ground of our own if we are to have serious aspirations

11 years and counting, pictures look nice though

 

[NorthernWisdom]

I’m not saying they’re going to either

Never said you were saying that, tbf!

One of the worst thing SISU have done is take kernels of truth, and distort them to such a degree that they just don't seem credible.

 

[Sick Boy]

11 years and counting

It goes back to the sale of HR. There was interest from consortiums looking to take us over, which included a condition that they could buy the stadium. And we all know what happened then, the council’s preferred bidder bought us.

 

[Sick Boy]

Never said you were saying that, tbf!

One of the worst thing SISU have done is take kernels of truth, and distort them to such a degree that they just don't seem credible.

Yes I agree. However, I do think that since the league 2 season they have ‘seen the light’ and are now actually (finally) making an effort for us to be successful. Long term I still think we are in serious danger of going out of business due to the stadium situation.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Yes I agree. However, I do think that since the league 2 season they have ‘seen the light’ and are now actually (finally) making an effort for us to be successful. Long term I still think we are in serious danger of going out of business due to the stadium situation.

It's easier to do 'well' on the pitch when you plunge to depths you haven't been for over half a century.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Pearson didn’t do too badly a few years later with Leicester, did he? I still can’t believe after all of this some would welcome the likes of Ranson back to the club.

He did alright for a bit to be fair to him, but I just felt he wasn't that great and would just be another on the merry-go-round and got rid of a year or two later. Still preferable to Coleman mind.

 

[SeaSeeEffCee]

Honestly, aside from the Wasps/Ricoh debacle they've been pretty good owners since we came back from Northampton. Backed the managers and got the club running in a self sufficient manner. In the 7 years before Northampton they were dreadful.

 

[ccfcway]

Honestly, aside from the Wasps/Ricoh debacle they've been pretty good owners since we came back from Northampton. Backed the managers and got the club running in a self sufficient manner. In the 7 years before Northampton they were dreadful.

I certainly agree they have been the best owners we have ever had whilst playing in birmingham