I was told the other day the cut off is this week, however I was also told they(sisu) can if they wish take this matter through the civil courts don’t know how long that would take bloody ages I’d expect.
I was told the other day the cut off is this week, however I was also told they(sisu) can if they wish take this matter through the civil courts don’t know how long that would take bloody ages I’d expect.Anyway, sorry to interrupt the in house bickering, but when is the actual cut off date for SISU to appeal the appeal. I though it was 12 November but I heard Clive on CWR mention he thought it was 16th. Anyone know for sure ?
I was told the other day the cut off is this week, however I was also told they(sisu) can if they wish take this matter through the civil courts don’t know how long that would take bloody ages I’d expect.
Civil courts on what basis? Last I heard the civil courts option was only for damages if the JR found in their favour.
Didn't work the first time they tried it with ACL though!!Given Wasps current state, I’d imagine tying them up in litigation for a few more years would be the game plan. Didn’t someone say that the value of the ricoh relies on the sports teams there?
If we’re kicked out, surely it would lose value, thus making their liabilities bigger than their assets?
Not saying I want 5 more years of court battles, but maybe the end game isn’t beat them in court, just merely wait for them to fold or leave?
Not saying it’s a good idea, just wondering if that’s the plan.Didn't work the first time they tried it with ACL though!!
The freehold is not up for sale though is it. So you’d be buying a debt ridden company (ACL) who has litigation being ran against it, with 2 sports teams teetering on the edge of oblivion. Not really attractive is it,What if and don’t rule this out a financially struggling Wasps sold the Ricoh off to a third party ?
Are the bonds even secured on anything?
How would it work somebody potentially buying half the lease with a charge over it? Obviously could buy half of it, bonds go to shit and they call it in and whoever bought the other half still loses out.There is a £35m charge on ACL'S leases, which include the lease for the footbridge over the A444 and the land surrounding the Arena (I think). Interesting to see what any would be hotel developer thinks of that.
How would it work somebody potentially buying half the lease with a charge over it? Obviously could buy half of it, bonds go to shit and they call it in and whoever bought the other half still loses out.
You say ACL is worth 60m if it went bust, and the council issued a new 250 year lease, surely the value would be similar.Just a couple of points
The litigation has been against CCC, with Wasps Holdings and Higgs Charity as interested parties. ACL has been "involved" in that it was the asset purchased by Wasps Holdings
ACL owns the lease valued at £60m and as such is a company you wouldnt want to go bust
ACL has a positive balance sheet of £28m. It made a loss in 2017 (after its share of the interest charges) of £509k. That loss would be mitigated by the profit / (loss) shown on its 100% subsidiaries ACL (2006) Ltd £709k and IEC Experience Ltd (£258k)loss (depending on accounting consolidation amendments). That sub group does or didall the trading other than the Rugby side of things, and doesnt appear to be making big losses
Selling ACL to a third party could free up cash flow but cost the group an annual rent. Depends if that annual rent is bigger than the interest charges each year. It also depends what you buy..... the lease or the company
The biggest loss making part of the group is the Rugby side of things.
Where does he work?Talking to a guy today who works with Tim Fisher told me Joy’s aim is to get the club to the championship then sell stil not sure how it works with no stadium.Wasps accounts show a loss of 10m last year he thinks they might be waiting for them to break.Also wasps got thr ground through lending money through a bond scheme and they have till 2021 to pay back they can’t see how they can do that.
Said he was a real estate adviser showed me Tim Fisher in his phone etc said the council pretty much give the ground away he was involved in valuing the ground.Wasps accounts came out today apparently for the last year.Where does he work?
To be honest, I could put a name in my phone as him and I bet it wouldn't be too hard to get hold of his numberSaid he was a real estate adviser showed me Tim Fisher in his phone etc said the council pretty much give the ground away he was involved in valuing the ground.Wasps accounts came out today apparently for the last year.
Huge pay out from sky should helpTalking to a guy today who works with Tim Fisher told me Joy’s aim is to get the club to the championship then sell stil not sure how it works with no stadium.Wasps accounts show a loss of 10m last year he thinks they might be waiting for them to break.Also wasps got thr ground through lending money through a bond scheme and they have till 2021 to pay back they can’t see how they can do that.
This is all public knowledgeSaid he was a real estate adviser showed me Tim Fisher in his phone etc said the council pretty much give the ground away he was involved in valuing the ground.Wasps accounts came out today apparently for the last year.
I've still got Mark tomato juice phone number in my phone no idea if he still owns it.To be honest, I could put a name in my phone as him and I bet it wouldn't be too hard to get hold of his number
I guess it saves paying for sexting!I've still got Mark tomato juice phone number in my phone no idea if he still owns it.
Think its very poor of the council not to put an insolvency clause in the lease so they regain ownership. A situation where the lease is for sale with CCC, let alone those such as CCFC who would be impacted, having no say over who ends up with ownership is a massive oversight.The lease is worth £60m in the current trading set up ie as a going concern. If it all went bust then it would have no worth to Wasps because it would be Wasps going bust. The 250 years reverts to whatever is left on the original lease which would still be owned by ACL. Where that leaves the bond security who knows. As it stands the major asset available for sale either now or in the case of insolvency lays within ACL. An insolvency practitioner would look to sell it on to be able to raise funds i would have thought
Council are the biggest crooks out there use Coventry tax payers money To build stadium thrnsell it to a London rugby firm...tossers as wellThink its very poor of the council not to put an insolvency clause in the lease so they regain ownership. A situation where the lease is for sale with CCC, let alone those such as CCFC who would be impacted, having no say over who ends up with ownership is a massive oversight.
Well if that’s true about what Joy’s aim is I would think she would rubber stamp more funds this January to help the promotion cause.Talking to a guy today who works with Tim Fisher told me Joy’s aim is to get the club to the championship then sell stil not sure how it works with no stadium.Wasps accounts show a loss of 10m last year he thinks they might be waiting for them to break.Also wasps got thr ground through lending money through a bond scheme and they have till 2021 to pay back they can’t see how they can do that.
For a striker?Well if that’s true about what Joy’s aim is I would think she would rubber stamp more funds this January to help the promotion cause.
Easy thing to do is ban Wasps, Ricoh and SISU chat surely...
Said he was a real estate adviser showed me Tim Fisher in his phone etc said the council pretty much give the ground away he was involved in valuing the ground.Wasps accounts came out today apparently for the last year.
Talking to a guy today who works with Tim Fisher told me Joy’s aim is to get the club to the championship then sell stil not sure how it works with no stadium.Wasps accounts show a loss of 10m last year he thinks they might be waiting for them to break.Also wasps got thr ground through lending money through a bond scheme and they have till 2021 to pay back they can’t see how they can do that.
Think its very poor of the council not to put an insolvency clause in the lease so they regain ownership. A situation where the lease is for sale with CCC, let alone those such as CCFC who would be impacted, having no say over who ends up with ownership is a massive oversight.
cc84cov said:
Talking to a guy today who works with Tim Fisher told me Joy’s aim is to get the club to the championship then sell stil not sure how it works with no stadium.Wasps accounts show a loss of 10m last year he thinks they might be waiting for them to break.Also wasps got thr ground through lending money through a bond scheme and they have till 2021 to pay back they can’t see how they can do that.
I'd have to look into it to give an informed response but given that there have been fines dished out to people who were not found guilty in a criminal court I suspect SISU could take this to them regardless of the JR outcome.
Civil courts can't award fines, that's for criminal courts. They can award damages, but I'm struggling to see on what grounds in this circumstance. Wasps haven't broken any contract with SISU that I know of, and there's no obligation in law for them to deal with SISU for (say) a new rental deal. Even if Wasps were sold the Ricoh undervalue, the remedy was between them and the council.
If in law (rather than morally) via the JRs the Council are found to have done nothing wrong, there's not much chance of damages there either!
If the appeal to the Supreme Court is turned down, I can't see how this isn't the end of the road for the legals. On what grounds could Wasps be brought back into court?
Compass ended their interest 12 years early and Delaware North took over the catering and hospitality,probably the only part that's making significant profit.Could they be the third party that takes over ACL.actually i didnt. The lease is worth £60m in the current trading set up ie as a going concern. If it all went bust then it would have no worth to Wasps because it would be Wasps going bust. The 250 years reverts to whatever is left on the original lease which would still be owned by ACL. Where that leaves the bond security who knows. As it stands the major asset available for sale either now or in the case of insolvency lays within ACL. An insolvency practitioner would look to sell it on to be able to raise funds i would have thought
The value of the lease would then depend on the lease owner, the business plan, the usage. It might be £60m to the new leaseholder it could be very different. It would be worth not a lot to the council and only really attain value once in the hands of the new leaseholder. In much the same way as it happened with the current owners. The lease loses some of its value when there is no one to run the site as a going concern then regains a value in the hands of the new leaseholder. The values in the old ACL accounts (pre Wasps) and the current depend on ACL being a going concern
It isnt that tangled IEC & Arena Coventry 2006 are now separate wholly owned subsidiaries of ACL which is itself wholly owned by Wasps Holdings. Not really in the scheme of things an intricate set up. The set up could actually allow for selling different bits off without affecting others
Wasps are owned by Moonstone holdings which is owned by Richardson
Compass are not involved anymore and when they were had a 23% minority holding in IEC. They stopped being involved 14 July 2018
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