Appeal Dismissed

Discussion in 'Coventry City General Chat' started by Fishy Tim, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. Magwitch

    Magwitch Well-Known Member

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    I was told the other day the cut off is this week, however I was also told they(sisu) can if they wish take this matter through the civil courts don’t know how long that would take bloody ages I’d expect.
     
  2. Captain Dart

    Captain Dart Well-Known Member

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    Civil courts on what basis? Last I heard the civil courts option was only for damages if the JR found in their favour.
     
  3. Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon

    Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon Active Member

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    I'd have to look into it to give an informed response but given that there have been fines dished out to people who were not found guilty in a criminal court I suspect SISU could take this to them regardless of the JR outcome.
     
  4. HuckerbyDublinWhelan

    HuckerbyDublinWhelan Well-Known Member

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    Given Wasps current state, I’d imagine tying them up in litigation for a few more years would be the game plan. Didn’t someone say that the value of the ricoh relies on the sports teams there?

    If we’re kicked out, surely it would lose value, thus making their liabilities bigger than their assets?

    Not saying I want 5 more years of court battles, but maybe the end game isn’t beat them in court, just merely wait for them to fold or leave?
     
  5. smileycov

    smileycov Facebook User

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    Didn't work the first time they tried it with ACL though!!
     
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  6. Magwitch

    Magwitch Well-Known Member

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    What if and don’t rule this out a financially struggling Wasps sold the Ricoh off to a third party ?
     
  7. HuckerbyDublinWhelan

    HuckerbyDublinWhelan Well-Known Member

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    Not saying it’s a good idea, just wondering if that’s the plan.

    The freehold is not up for sale though is it. So you’d be buying a debt ridden company (ACL) who has litigation being ran against it, with 2 sports teams teetering on the edge of oblivion. Not really attractive is it,

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The best thing for any owners of ACL is let it go bust all contracts become broken and then you get a brand new lease from the council, as a clean slate

    Someone somewhere is making a load of money from ACL still existing, it isn’t Wasps or CCFC
     
  8. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    Just a couple of points

    The litigation has been against CCC, with Wasps Holdings and Higgs Charity as interested parties. ACL has been "involved" in that it was the asset purchased by Wasps Holdings

    ACL owns the lease valued at £60m and as such is a company you wouldnt want to go bust

    ACL has a positive balance sheet of £28m. It made a loss in 2017 (after its share of the interest charges) of £509k. That loss would be mitigated by the profit / (loss) shown on its 100% subsidiaries ACL (2006) Ltd £709k and IEC Experience Ltd (£258k)loss (depending on accounting consolidation amendments). That sub group does or did all the trading other than the Rugby side of things, and doesnt appear to be making big losses

    Selling ACL to a third party could free up cash flow but cost the group an annual rent. Depends if that annual rent is bigger than the interest charges each year. It also depends what you buy..... the lease or the company

    The biggest loss making part of the group is the Rugby side of things.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
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  9. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    Are the bonds even secured on anything?
     
  10. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

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    There is a £35m charge on ACL'S leases, which include the lease for the footbridge over the A444 and the land surrounding the Arena (I think). Interesting to see what any would be hotel developer thinks of that.
     
  11. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    How would it work somebody potentially buying half the lease with a charge over it? Obviously could buy half of it, bonds go to shit and they call it in and whoever bought the other half still loses out.
     
  12. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

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    That's it
     
  13. HuckerbyDublinWhelan

    HuckerbyDublinWhelan Well-Known Member

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    You say ACL is worth 60m if it went bust, and the council issued a new 250 year lease, surely the value would be similar.

    Isn’t ACL a tangled web of IEC, wasps holdings and Compass?
     
  14. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    actually i didnt. The lease is worth £60m in the current trading set up ie as a going concern. If it all went bust then it would have no worth to Wasps because it would be Wasps going bust. The 250 years reverts to whatever is left on the original lease which would still be owned by ACL. Where that leaves the bond security who knows. As it stands the major asset available for sale either now or in the case of insolvency lays within ACL. An insolvency practitioner would look to sell it on to be able to raise funds i would have thought

    The value of the lease would then depend on the lease owner, the business plan, the usage. It might be £60m to the new leaseholder it could be very different. It would be worth not a lot to the council and only really attain value once in the hands of the new leaseholder. In much the same way as it happened with the current owners. The lease loses some of its value when there is no one to run the site as a going concern then regains a value in the hands of the new leaseholder. The values in the old ACL accounts (pre Wasps) and the current depend on ACL being a going concern

    It isnt that tangled IEC & Arena Coventry 2006 are now separate wholly owned subsidiaries of ACL which is itself wholly owned by Wasps Holdings. Not really in the scheme of things an intricate set up. The set up could actually allow for selling different bits off without affecting others

    Wasps are owned by Moonstone holdings which is owned by Richardson

    Compass are not involved anymore and when they were had a 23% minority holding in IEC. They stopped being involved 14 July 2018
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
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  15. cc84cov

    cc84cov Active Member

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    Talking to a guy today who works with Tim Fisher told me Joy’s aim is to get the club to the championship then sell stil not sure how it works with no stadium.Wasps accounts show a loss of 10m last year he thinks they might be waiting for them to break.Also wasps got thr ground through lending money through a bond scheme and they have till 2021 to pay back they can’t see how they can do that.
     
  16. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    Where does he work?
     
  17. cc84cov

    cc84cov Active Member

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    Said he was a real estate adviser showed me Tim Fisher in his phone etc said the council pretty much give the ground away he was involved in valuing the ground.Wasps accounts came out today apparently for the last year.
     
  18. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    To be honest, I could put a name in my phone as him and I bet it wouldn't be too hard to get hold of his number ;)
     
  19. Sky Blue Pete

    Sky Blue Pete Well-Known Member

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    Huge pay out from sky should help
     
  20. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

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    This is all public knowledge
     
  21. letsallsingtogether

    letsallsingtogether Well-Known Member

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    I've still got Mark tomato juice phone number in my phone no idea if he still owns it. :)
     
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  22. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    I guess it saves paying for sexting!;)
     
  23. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Think its very poor of the council not to put an insolvency clause in the lease so they regain ownership. A situation where the lease is for sale with CCC, let alone those such as CCFC who would be impacted, having no say over who ends up with ownership is a massive oversight.
     
  24. cc84cov

    cc84cov Active Member

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    Council are the biggest crooks out there use Coventry tax payers money To build stadium thrnsell it to a London rugby firm...tossers as well
     
  25. Magwitch

    Magwitch Well-Known Member

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    Well if that’s true about what Joy’s aim is I would think she would rubber stamp more funds this January to help the promotion cause.
     
  26. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    For a striker?
     
  27. Skyblueweeman

    Skyblueweeman Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but then what do we talk about?!

    Football? Pah.....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  28. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    Just curious......but

    valuing the ground for who though? The freehold is valued at nil by CCC in the council accounts - has been for years. The lease was valued by KPMG for CCC and then by Strutt & Parker LLP and Gerald Eve LLP for Wasps...... was he from one of those?

    Didnt the recent court case confirm CCC adopted correct procedure and were entitled to sell at the value they did? They still own the freehold of course

    so Seppala has no real plan and is relying on a large slice of luck in getting to the Championship sometime to be able to sell the club then? Given the additional cost the promotion brings with it that have to be financed and the lack of assets or long term base how does the value of CCFC greatly increase from where it is now? What happens if we dont get promoted? what she has said in the past are values that bear no resemblance to the value of the business in any division has that changed?
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  29. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    But thats why i said you have to look at the group situation....... the ACL sub group could be a going concern and could be carved out of the Wasps holdings group.......Wasps going bust doesnt necessarily mean ACL has to, but if it did then the lease reverts to CCC. The freeholder of any site has the right of approval of a leaseholder.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  30. Captain Dart

    Captain Dart Well-Known Member

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    Most Championship clubs run at considerable loss so the problem here is that there is one season to swing the deal before the extra bills come home to roost and if expenditure is kept less than income then the club might just get relegated again.
     
  31. lapsed_skyblue

    lapsed_skyblue Active Member

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    The market for football clubs seems pretty soft of late. Granted somebody would probably buy say Man Utd, Liverpool or Chelsea at a premium but clubs like Aston Villa and Newcastle have been open for offers for quite a while now, admittedly at an over optimistic price. I suspect that quite a few other club owners would not be averse to offers either.
    I can't see SISU being able to sell CCFC unless it is priced more like a disposal than an asset sale.
     
  32. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

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    Civil courts can't award fines, that's for criminal courts. They can award damages, but I'm struggling to see on what grounds in this circumstance. Wasps haven't broken any contract with SISU that I know of, and there's no obligation in law for them to deal with SISU for (say) a new rental deal. Even if Wasps were sold the Ricoh undervalue, the remedy was between them and the council.

    If in law (rather than morally) via the JRs the Council are found to have done nothing wrong, there's not much chance of damages there either!

    If the appeal to the Supreme Court is turned down, I can't see how this isn't the end of the road for the legals. On what grounds could Wasps be brought back into court?
     
  33. Captain Dart

    Captain Dart Well-Known Member

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    So if the current litigation is not about damages or fines, it is about grinding the other parties down?
     
  34. Wiseoldfool

    Wiseoldfool Active Member

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    Compass ended their interest 12 years early and Delaware North took over the catering and hospitality,probably the only part that's making significant profit.Could they be the third party that takes over ACL.
     
  35. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it the case that the burden of proof is lower in a civil case? Moves from beyond reasonable doubt to more likely than not.
     

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