Another terror attack in Europe. (1 Viewer)

[clint van damme]

Or you could argue that they were just ticking time bombs that would have blown up at some point in the future...
Which is also just as plausible

I think the figures pre and post Iraq prove that's not the case, (though maybe the Russian incursion into Afghanistan was a major driver as well).
Though as I said on another post, even if there's consensus that it was, it doesn't go anyway to providing a solution to what is going on now.

Also worth mentioning that ISIS killed 22 university students in Afghanistan yesterday, that's how much they love their fellow Muslims.

 

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[clint van damme]

Two big ones spring to mind. The church/centre and the Orlando gay nightclub. Combined I’m sure that’s around 100 dead.

what was the church one? You're right about the Orlando one, forgot about that.

 

[Evo1883]

I mean ultimately in the states gun crime / shootings is a much bigger problem for them... But that's alot to do with legislation and law

 

[clint van damme]

I mean ultimately in the states gun crime / shootings is a much bigger problem for them... But that's alot to do with legislation and law

yeah, I don't think the two issues should be conflated.

 

[Evo1883]

I think the figures pre and post Iraq prove that's not the case, (though maybe the Russian incursion into Afghanistan was a major driver as well).
Though as I said on another post, even if there's consensus that it was, it doesn't go anyway to providing a solution to what is going on now.

Also worth mentioning that ISIS killed 2 university students in Afghanistan yesterday, that's how much they love their fellow Muslims.

It's not really at all about isis being the dark side of the religion is it tbh...

There are 3 separate types of Muslims, 2 being the main ones Shia and sunni and they don't particularly like each other at all... And people have died because of this which is nothing to do with groups like isis... It's a religion already fractured within.

 

[clint van damme]

It's not really at all about isis being the dark side of the religion is it tbh...

There are 3 separate types of Muslims, 2 being the main ones Shia and sunni and they don't particularly like each other at all... And people have died because of this which is nothing to do with groups like isis... It's a religion already fractured within

but is that schism behind attacks like the one in Vienna? I don't believe it is. Or were you referring to the Afghanistan attack?

 

[shmmeee]

OK i take it back they’ve had a few.

 

[stay_up_skyblues]

what was the church one? You're right about the Orlando one, forgot about that.

Not a church, a social services centre (my shit memory).

2015 San Bernardino attack - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[shmmeee]

yeah, I don't think the two issues should be conflated.

It was more a “clearly it’s not hard to get a gun and do a mass shooting” thing rather than comparing the two.

 

[Evo1883]

but is that schism behind attacks like the one in Vienna? I don't believe it is. Or were you referring to the Afghanistan attack?

Muslims as a whole appear to be the most loyal to their religion and its scripture... This is concerning when the scripture is actually looked at.

Then obviously you have to distinguish between hard line Muslims and pacifists

The problem is terrorism in Islamic countries goes back much further than isis, and terrorism in Europe goes back further than 9/11 or the Iraq war...


I'm Doing my best to stay in line today



I dont want to argue, and my best wishes are with the people in Vienna ultimately

 

[shmmeee]

Muslims as a whole appear to be the most loyal to their religion and its scripture... This is concerning when the scripture is actually looked at.

Then obviously you have to distinguish between hard line Muslims and pacifists

The problem is terrorism in Islamic countries goes back much further than isis, and terrorism in Europe goes back further than 9/11 or the Iraq war...


I'm Doing my best to stay in line today

The thing is, there’s literally billions of Muslims world wide. And those you call “pacifists” are clearly the massive majority. So you’ve cast your net and only caught a minority it suggests you’ve cast your net too wide.

If it was just Islam itself that’s the problem, why do most adherents not take up arms?

I think the real problem in Europe is Internet radicalisation TBH. There’s a masculinity and mental health crisis that’s radicalising young men all over the political spectrum. So many of these terrorists aren’t massively religious they’ve just spent too long watching ISIS propaganda online.

There may have been terrorism before but this type of disconnected line wolf stuff has definitely risen with the internet the last 20 years.

 

[Evo1883]

The thing is, there’s literally billions of Muslims world wide. And those you call “pacifists” are clearly the massive majority. So you’ve cast your net and only caught a minority it suggests you’ve cast your net too wide.

If it was just Islam itself that’s the problem, why do most adherents not take up arms?

I think the real problem in Europe is Internet radicalisation TBH. There’s a masculinity and mental health crisis that’s radicalising young men all over the political spectrum. So many of these terrorists aren’t massively religious they’ve just spent too long watching ISIS propaganda online.

There may have been terrorism before but this type of disconnected line wolf stuff has definitely risen with the internet the last 20 years.

You won't get an argument from me about the Internet and social media I agree.

I dont agree that the huge majority are pacifist, I think that's a massive over estimate .. I think they are in Europe, especially the ones born here... But again that ultimately goes back to European values and the way we live our lives as opposed to Muslim majority countries.

 

[stay_up_skyblues]

Muslims as a whole appear to be the most loyal to their religion and its scripture... This is concerning when the scripture is actually looked at.

Then obviously you have to distinguish between hard line Muslims and pacifists

The problem is terrorism in Islamic countries goes back much further than isis, and terrorism in Europe goes back further than 9/11 or the Iraq war...


I'm Doing my best to stay in line today



I dont want to argue, and my best wishes are with the people in Vienna ultimately

In town the other day (I live in Brum these days) there were a few religion stalls pushing their “message” outside the bullring.

One stall appeared to be hard line Islam blaring music and messages bordering on IS propaganda.

Next to them was a stall called (something along the lines of) Friends in Islam and with livery promoting peace in the West etc.

Both Muslim obviously and both giving away free Qua-rans.

There was also the Christian stall with a guy barking out passages from the bible.

All of it is a waste of an afternoon to me (staunch atheist) but shows the possible divide on our own doorstep.

 

[Sky Blue Harry H]

Fucking cunts. Vienna is a great city. Big increase in attacks recently, I can't see why Austria is a target though.

Agreed re: Vienna. Great place. Spent second week of my honeymoon there and have been back for a week since. One of the safest cities you'll ever visit - walking around after midnight, and took me a while to get used to not having to look over your shoulder every couple of minutes. Only takes a handful of idiots out of many millions to create a disproportionate view of people/religions/the world. Sad, cruel and pointless.

 

[Evo1883]

In town the other day (I live in Brum these days) there were a few religion stalls pushing their “message” outside the bullring.

One stall appeared to be hard line Islam blaring music and messages bordering on IS propaganda.

Next to them was a stall called (something along the lines of) Friends in Islam and with livery promoting peace in the West etc.

Both Muslim obviously and both giving away free Qua-rans.

There was also the Christian stall with a guy barking out passages from the bible.

All of it is a waste of an afternoon to me (staunch atheist) but shows the possible divide on our own doorstep.

I mean ultimately the guy ringing the bell telling us all the rapture is coming is a fruit loop, but far less likely to walk into a city centre and shoot people... Just harmless.
Same goes for the muslim on the stall next to the isis careers centre... Why don't these people get shut down and arrested?

It's the little things like that, that baffle me and I'd imagine many of us

 

[shmmeee]

You won't get an argument from me about the Internet and social media I agree.

I dont agree that the huge majority are pacifist... I think they are in Europe, especially the ones born here... But again that ultimately goes back to European values and the way we live our lives as opposed to Muslim majority countries

Does that hold up though? Indonesia is the most Muslim country in the world and it’s hardly a failed state. Looking at this it’s pretty similar to the US, especially when you factor in poverty.

Indonesia vs United States: Crime Facts and Stats

Intentional homicide rate, Crime levels, Murder rate, Murder rate per million people, Guns per 100 residents and 52 More Interesting Facts and Stats

www.nationmaster.com

Albania is one of the most Muslim countries but looks like most European countries.

I think you’ve got to separate the standard stuff that leads to violent states (resource rich, poor civic infrastructure) from religion. Most Muslim countries are African or Middle Eastern and we know why those areas are fucked up.

 

[Evo1883]

Does that hold up though? Indonesia is the most Muslim country in the world and it’s hardly a failed state. Looking at this it’s pretty similar to the US, especially when you factor in poverty.

Indonesia vs United States: Crime Facts and Stats

Intentional homicide rate, Crime levels, Murder rate, Murder rate per million people, Guns per 100 residents and 52 More Interesting Facts and Stats

www.nationmaster.com

Albania is one of the most Muslim countries but looks like most European countries.

I think you’ve got to separate the standard stuff that leads to violent states (resource rich, poor civic infrastructure) from religion. Most Muslim countries are African or Middle Eastern and we know why those areas are fucked up.

I agree to an extent.

I always attached hard-line religion to education and poverty until I realised how fucking religious alot of Americans were

America is as religious as Britain was I imagine about 500 years ago

Would never have a godless president over there (or so the saying goes)

 

[shmmeee]

I agree to an extent.

I always attached hard-line religion to education and poverty until I realised how fucking religious alot of Americans were

I was reading a really interesting thing on America and it’s love of nonsense.

How the U.S. Lost Its Mind

Make America reality-based again.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Evo1883]

I was reading a really interesting thing on America and it’s love of nonsense.

How the U.S. Lost Its Mind

Make America reality-based again.

www.theatlantic.com

They do love a good dose of bollocks.

The USA is still only 246 years old, it has to have something to do with it

 

[SBT]

I agree to an extent.

I always attached hard-line religion to education and poverty until I realised how fucking religious alot of Americans were

America is as religious as Britain was I imagine about 500 years ago

Would never have a godless president over there (or so the saying goes)

Ignoring the fact that Britain didn't exist 500 years ago, that's uhhhh quite a spicy take. You're literally talking pre-Reformation, Henry VIII-era levels of religiosity. Americans are a surprisingly religious bunch in places, but in fairness most of them would agree that the earth travels around the sun.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Two big ones spring to mind. The church/centre and the Orlando gay nightclub. Combined I’m sure that’s around 100 dead.

And that casino one

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I mean ultimately the guy ringing the bell telling us all the rapture is coming is a fruit loop, but far less likely to walk into a city centre and shoot people... Just harmless.
Same goes for the muslim on the stall next to the isis careers centre... Why don't these people get shut down and arrested?

It's the little things like that, that baffle me and I'd imagine many of us

Again not to argue but it’s something I admire so much in our grown up society. The ability to allow someone to shout at the top of their lungs something that I would spend my life campaigning against. It’s called freedom of speech. It has limits of course but I don’t know where the line must be drawn. And it comes with responsibility it shouldn’t be without limits but society should decide them and be consistent.

 

[SBT]

And that casino one

You mean Vegas? We don't know to this day if that was a terrorist attack, let alone an Islamic one (although I'm sure if the shooter had been a Muslim guy rather than a white atheist there wouldn't be much debate about it)

 

[fernandopartridge]

Does that hold up though? Indonesia is the most Muslim country in the world and it’s hardly a failed state. Looking at this it’s pretty similar to the US, especially when you factor in poverty.

Indonesia vs United States: Crime Facts and Stats

Intentional homicide rate, Crime levels, Murder rate, Murder rate per million people, Guns per 100 residents and 52 More Interesting Facts and Stats

www.nationmaster.com

Albania is one of the most Muslim countries but looks like most European countries.

I think you’ve got to separate the standard stuff that leads to violent states (resource rich, poor civic infrastructure) from religion. Most Muslim countries are African or Middle Eastern and we know why those areas are fucked up.

Malaysia, Singapore both Muslim countries

 

[stay_up_skyblues]

And that casino one

Wasn’t an Islamic one. Me and the missus were at Mandalay Bay a couple of months before. Frightening.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Wasn’t an Islamic one. Me and the missus were at Mandalay Bay a couple of months before. Frightening.

It was partly the point I was making to evo about uk and USA. It certainly wasn’t an Islamic one. Lots died though and it was probably terrifying

 

[Evo1883]

Ignoring the fact that Britain didn't exist 500 years ago, that's uhhhh quite a spicy take. You're literally talking pre-Reformation, Henry VIII-era levels of religiosity. Americans are a surprisingly religious bunch in places, but in fairness most of them would agree that the earth travels around the sun.

The America part.. Was ofcourse light Hearted poking.. Relax

 

[Macca]

Or you could argue that they were just ticking time bombs that would have blown up at some point in the future...
Which is also just as plausible

Yeh I worry about the approach that we have caused this every time something happens. I get the point but it somehow infers justification or revenge which is a dangerous precedent. I mean if some ultra right wing terrorist blew up a mosque in UK tomorrow it would be totally wrong to say something like “well yes it’s awful but they were kind of asking for it given all the stabbing and shooting they have been doing recently”
Awful isn’t it but then so is “oh but the cartoons, oh but the foreign policy, oh but the empire a century ago”

The bottom line is, it’s repulsive. France, Spain, Iraq, New Zealand, Oklahoma City. Whatever the excuses, causes, reasons it’s repulsive. It’s ordinary people who die, not politicians, decision makers or warmongers

 

[Otis]

I wonder what Austria have done to deserve it?

Lederhosen?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Again not to argue but it’s something I admire so much in our grown up society. The ability to allow someone to shout at the top of their lungs something that I would spend my life campaigning against. It’s called freedom of speech. It has limits of course but I don’t know where the line must be drawn. And it comes with responsibility it shouldn’t be without limits but society should decide them and be consistent.

I would say threats of violence and slander, everything else is fair game

 

[Otis]

Muslims as a whole appear to be the most loyal to their religion and its scripture... This is concerning when the scripture is actually looked at.

Then obviously you have to distinguish between hard line Muslims and pacifists

The problem is terrorism in Islamic countries goes back much further than isis, and terrorism in Europe goes back further than 9/11 or the Iraq war...


I'm Doing my best to stay in line today



I dont want to argue, and my best wishes are with the people in Vienna ultimately

That's much better than saying Islam is not a peaceful religion.

There are extreme elements within Islam and that is the problem that needs to be confronted.

 

[Evo1883]

That's much better than saying Islam is not a peaceful religion.

There are extreme elements within Islam and that is the problem that needs to be confronted.

I still don't think it's peaceful, sorry mate

 

[Evo1883]

The America part.. Was ofcourse light Hearted poking.. Relax

But apart from that... The USA is 246 years old... England Scotland Wales... Much older than 500 years.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

You won't get an argument from me about the Internet and social media I agree.

I dont agree that the huge majority are pacifist, I think that's a massive over estimate .. I think they are in Europe, especially the ones born here... But again that ultimately goes back to European values and the way we live our lives as opposed to Muslim majority countries.

Again this goes back to historic educational differences. In Europe we've had centuries of grinding down gospel and scripture with science and for much of that time the place was a warzone.

Islamic scripture has a Judeo-Christian basing and if you read things like the Bible and Torah much of the same stuff exists - the Bible is full of smiting people for the smallest deviation from the norm and death being the punishment for even the smallest of transgressions from the scripture - but is now largely ignored. They suggest people shouldn't be educated, shouldn't be taught to read, write or even draw and only holy men should be allowed to actually read the scriptures and society learns it from them. It's all about power and control over the populace and make them either live in fear or promise of a reward they can never prove exists based on our biggest fear - death.

Islam still largely follows those lines in places like the Middle East and Africa - education is not widely available or desired by those in charge and scripture is dictated to the people rather than interpreted by them. All so they can retain a stranglehold on power by making as many people as possible unable to question it because they're not told any different or are too afraid to question it. Why do you think they often target educational establishments - because they don't want people to become more intelligent and enquiring, questioning what they say and ultimately undermining their authority. So when you're brought up with that mindset and other places do question it it goes completely against what you've been brought up to believe is 'right' and those two are completely incompatible. When you get brought up in a country where such questioning is the norm, it becomes easier to accept that inquiring stance, especially over the generations when the influence of those original migrants has waned in the home environment.

 

[bezzer]

OK i take it back they’ve had a few.

Yes, quite a few since 9/11 -

• June 1, 2009 Little Rock recruiting office shooting, (Little Rock, AR): A Man shoots a local soldier to death inside a recruiting center explicitly in the name of Allah.
• November 5, 2009 Fort Hood shooting, Ft. Hood, Texas: A Muslim psychiatrist guns down thirteen unarmed soldiers while yelling praises to Allah.
• April 15, 2013 – Boston Marathon bombing (Boston, MA): Foreign-born Muslims detonate two bombs packed with ball bearings at the Boston Marathon, killing three people and causing several more to lose limbs.
• September 25, 2014 – Vaughan Foods beheading incident, (Moore, OK): A Sharia advocate beheads a woman after calling for Islamic terror and posting an Islamist beheading photo.
• July 16, 2015 Chattanooga shootings, Chattanooga, Tennessee: A Muslim commits a shooting spree at a recruiting center at a strip mall and a naval center, leaving five soldiers dead at the latter location.
• November 4, 2015 – University of California, Merced stabbing attack by Islamist extremist
• December 2, 2015 San Bernardino attack, San Bernardino, California: A couple opens fire at a Christmas party, leaving fourteen dead.
• January 7, 2016 - Shooting of Jesse Hartnett, Philadelphia police officer Jesse Hartnett is ambushed by a gunman who later pledged allegiance to ISIS.
• February 11, 2016 – Ohio restaurant machete attack by Islamist extremist
• June 12, 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting, Orlando, Florida: Omar Mateen shoots and kills 49 people and injures 58 more at a gay bar, the largest mass shooting in U.S. history at the time.
• November 28, 2016 – Ohio State University attack, Columbus, Ohio: A Somalian student, Abdul Artan, who came to the U.S. as a refugee, intentionally rammed a car into pedestrians on a busy campus sidewalk on Monday morning and then began slashing passers-by with a butcher knife, the authorities said, injuring 11 students and faculty and staff members.
• October 31, 2017 – 2017 New York City truck attack, New York City: 29-year-old Sayfullo Habibullaevich Saipov rented a Home Depot pickup truck and intentionally drove it through a bicycle path. He crashed into a school bus and then exited the vehicle wielding look-a-like weapons. He was shot by NYPD. 8 people were killed and 12 were injured.
• December 6, 2019 - Naval Air Station Pensacola shooting, Pensacola, Florida: A second lieutenant of the Saudi Royal Air Force training at the Naval Air Station in Pensacola opened fire in one of the classroom buildings killing 3 and wounding 8 others before being shot dead by responding police officers.
• May 21, 2020 - Corpus Christi, Texas: At the Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Adam Alsahi crashed through a northern perimeter gate at NAS Corpus Christi, activating vehicle barriers. The driver then got out and opened fire before being shot and killed. A Navy police officer was shot but was protected by a ballistic vest. Alsahi had expressed support for terrorist networks including ISIS. The FBI announced the incident as terrorism-related.[