19/20 Accounts (3 Viewers)

[SBAndy]

Well all they ever want is a return for their investors

In relative terms the season before promotion was a sign of this with recovery on interest payments

Almost certainly the move to St Andrews was an engineered attempt to bring wasps down. As usual the plan failed

You only have to look at the post OSB made regarding income in the season - we were comfortably top 6 but I’m sure Boddy mentioned somewhere were were 11th in terms of spend capacity. The owners were not intending any funding and ended up being caught out with the pandemic and more poor planning

The balance sheet liabilities are ratcheting up. We’ve had to take a £3.2 m loan to cover tax liabilities (again I’m sure Boddy said we didn’t need it) and despite an unexpected windfall with the Wilson sale I’d assume a further £7 - £8 million deterioration

Let’s forget the notion the owners have funded gaps - the figures are there in public record - they have not

What they will now do I’m afraid is look again at recovery through re payments. So starving of an already poor budget, interest repayments and I suspect 5-7 more years to recover fund holder investment

Generally agree with what you’re getting at, but there’s some rubbish included in here:

- Can’t really be having the insinuation of poor planning because they were caught out by the pandemic. Wouldn’t have made the blindest bit of difference what they’d done, the impact would have been the same regardless of decisions made.

- The £3.2m loan, it said in the accounts, can be used for tax liabilities and working capital requirements “as presented in the business plan”. I know that the tax option was always there but can’t remember WC being mentioned earlier on. This could potentially be used for wages, lease costs, transfer instalments, anything. May even possibly, albeit very unlikely, be permitted to be used to refinance some of the interest-bearing loan(s).

- They are literally funding the gap, albeit with loans. Not wholly unsurprising, and is clearly their strategy; can’t imagine they’d get sign off to inject funds with no recourse.

I don’t think you’re far off in terms of their strategy but don’t embellish stuff to fit your argument.

 

---

[slowpoke]

Compared to a lot of other clubs we have very few assets.

From what I have seen over time most clubs that get sold are in debt of some sort. Our assets are not lot of diffence to others are they ? I know we only rent our ground but that seems sorted now for a few years. Our assets ? our name, fan base, the division we are in, players obviously what else is there others have and we don’t ?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Do you think they should just put money in and not look to get it back?
If the 5-7 years coincided with mid table championship finishes would that be ok?

To even be vaguely competitive budget wise requires around a £15-20 million commitment. Given that we will not hit that without a bumper transfer fee each year or average crowds north of 25k you would be needing additional investment to stay in the division, not money going back out.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Do you think they should just put money in and not look to get it back?
If the 5-7 years coincided with mid table championship finishes would that be ok?

In what world are investors guaranteed a return other than these horrible high finance scumbags

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

My memory isn’t great I think she didn’t really answer but repeated that it wasn’t fair and Eu understand state aid law much better than the uk. Like Mark says we disagree as do many on here but to say that shows that she doesn’t give a shit about the success of ccfc or that she doesn’t care full stop I think is wrong but henny is entitled to his opinion. He’s not wrong that over the 11 years Sisu have not done things well. Success has helped everything but that shouldn’t overshadow that there is a reason we have had the success and to rightly give them shit as we went down to league 2 it seems churlish to say it’s luck or fluke or in spite of Sisu that we have had success

What the overall plan is who knows?
What is the plan to reduce the loan amounts?
Is it possible to compete in the championship - who knows?

Pete I don't want to rain on your parade - and I'm asking sincerely here - but what do you actually gain from meeting Joy? I have a contact who's regularly in the boardroom who used to meet Joy often as they are friends (not sure if he still does I haven't seen him in a while due to the pandemic) and said in the past he'll only ever be told what she wants him to hear and would rarely receive whole truths - something he was frustrated by but accepted.

With respect and I don't mean to sound condescending in any way but why would she be any different with you? Understandably some contact is better than none but from a personal standpoint I just don't see the value. As if she cannot answer fundamental questions such as those you've outlined, any contact with her at all is, in my opinion, utterly meaningless.

The fact she didn't answer your question (I assume she didn't) is fairly synonymous with her character - keeping her cards incredibly close to her chest and willing to share little or nothing at all.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Question of how much it would take for them to go anyone have any idea ?

I would think their current expectation is north of £20m. That would cover the capital & interest they are owed. In their mind there will be a premium for the club being in the Championship. But i don't think it is for sale at the moment

I am still of the mind that they want to manage the budget to create sufficient cash flow each year to actually pay down the interest & capital outstanding to them. That's going to take a few years and the strategy still is based on the club being allowed to find its own level with the minimum additional funding of the owners. The pandemic got in the way of that, as did promotion to the Championship where things are much more expensive.

What is also interesting is that in 2019 when they repaid £1.7m (whilst in L1) they repaid £1.4m of that in interest rather than paid down more capital which would have decreased future interest payments. Suggests to me that they are focussing on income extraction first.

If they don't pay down their loans and interest then they could be left with substantial losses in any deal. In my opinion no new owner is going to take on the shares of Otium.

Net interest & loans in and out from owner related entities
2015 £0
2016 £530k
2017 £388k
2018 £255k
2019 £(1.731m) extracted
2020 £ 1.510m

over those 6 years a net investment of £952k or an average of 158K pa. Squad building has and will remain in my opinion based entirely player trading. SISU will be the bank of last resort for day to day cashflow requirements not major capital investors

I think the only reason there was the large amount in 2020 is because of the bonuses that needed to be paid, but bear in mind most of that £1.51m still sat in the CCFC bank 31/05/2020 (£1.14m of it). Had promotion not been achieved then most of that funding would not have been needed.

I don't see the basic strategies of letting club find its own level, income extraction, and no major capital funding changing

Just my opinion

 

[oldskyblue58]

A friend who I trust was part of a group who were involved in an offer probably 2 years ago now said that their offer was way more than the club was worth. It sounded like it was all going to happen but then Sisu changed their mind. I don’t think their offer was more than £10m

obviously not party to your friends group bid but that looks like standard SISU operating practice to me. If someone comes half close to what they want they engage, collect the data, move the goal posts.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I would think their current expectation is north of £20m. That would cover the capital & interest they are owed. In their mind there will be a premium for the club being in the Championship. But i don't think it is for sale at the moment

I am still of the mind that they want to manage the budget to create sufficient cash flow each year to actually pay down the interest & capital outstanding to them. That's going to take a few years and the strategy still is based on the club being allowed to find its own level without the minimum additional funding of the owners. The pandemic got in the way of that, as did promotion to the Championship where things are much more expensive.

What is also interesting is that in 2019 when they repaid £1.7m (whilst in L1) they repaid £1.4m of that in interest rather than paid down more capital. Suggests to me that they are focussing on income extraction first.

If they don't pay down their loans and interest then they could be left with substantial losses in any deal. In my opinion no new owner is going to take on the shares of Otium.

Net interest & loans in and out from owner related entities
2015 £0
2016 £530k
2017 £388k
2018 £255k
2019 £(1.731m)
2020 £ 1.510m

over those 6 years a net investment of £952k or an average of 158K pa. Squad building has and will remain in my opinion based entirely player trading. SISU will be the bank of last resort for day to day cashflow requirements not major capital investors

I think the only reason there was the large amount in 2020 is because of the bonuses that needed to be paid, but bear in mind most of that £1.51m still sat in the CCFC bank 31/05/2020 (£1.14m of it). Had promotion not been achieved then the funding would not have been needed.

I dont see the basic strategies of letting club find its own level, income extraction, and no major capital funding changing

Just my opinion

In your view what is the exit strategy, if one exists?

 

[edgy]

I would think their current expectation is north of £20m. That would cover the capital & interest they are owed. In their mind there will be a premium for the club being in the Championship. But i don't think it is for sale at the moment

I am still of the mind that they want to manage the budget to create sufficient cash flow each year to actually pay down the interest & capital outstanding to them. That's going to take a few years and the strategy still is based on the club being allowed to find its own level without the minimum additional funding of the owners. The pandemic got in the way of that, as did promotion to the Championship where things are much more expensive.

What is also interesting is that in 2019 when they repaid £1.7m (whilst in L1) they repaid £1.4m of that in interest rather than paid down more capital. Suggests to me that they are focussing on income extraction first.

If they don't pay down their loans and interest then they could be left with substantial losses in any deal. In my opinion no new owner is going to take on the shares of Otium.

Net interest & loans in and out from owner related entities
2015 £0
2016 £530k
2017 £388k
2018 £255k
2019 £(1.731m)
2020 £ 1.510m

over those 6 years a net investment of £952k or an average of 158K pa. Squad building has and will remain in my opinion based entirely player trading. SISU will be the bank of last resort for day to day cashflow requirements not major capital investors

I think the only reason there was the large amount in 2020 is because of the bonuses that needed to be paid, but bear in mind most of that £1.51m still sat in the CCFC bank 31/05/2020 (£1.14m of it). Had promotion not been achieved then the funding would not have been needed.

I dont see the basic strategies of letting club find its own level, income extraction, and no major capital funding changing

Just my opinion

Could a major transfer fee change all that? Say we get an extraordinary offer for a player next January or the following Summer. Let's say O'Hare finds his scoring boots. Has a fantastic season full of assists and goals. We manage to get £15m-£20m from Wolves.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I think we should always keep in mind a number of things

- The SISU investors always come first not CCFC
- The chronological time lines of specific events, are more often than not much longer than a couple of months
- There is without exception always a SISU plan, they have staff and associates with considerable skill & knowledge.
- They will always have assessed the risk to their investors first before any action is taken, and assessed any likely reaction from third parties

 

[oldskyblue58]

In your view what is the exit strategy, if one exists?

to pay down the loans & interest and to then sell the club is the strategy. The timelines on that have been pushed back because of the pandemic. There is always a strategy or plan the fact that they haven't shared it with us or we cannot see it clearly is irrelevant

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Could a major transfer fee change all that? Say we get an extraordinary offer for a player next January or the following Summer. Let's say O'Hare finds his scoring boots. Has a fantastic season full of assists and goals. We manage to get £15m-£20m from Wolves.

To follow up from this query OSB. Do you think even in the event that a significant transfer fee was received, that it's questionable whether SISU would sell?

They've seen that money is there to be earned from the interest on loans, so due to this - and even if in the event they received a significant transfer fee - would SISU even be interested in selling? Or do you think they'll just want rid and accept a nominal bid from whatever interested party?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Could a major transfer fee change all that? Say we get an extraordinary offer for a player next January or the following Summer. Let's say O'Hare finds his scoring boots. Has a fantastic season full of assists and goals. We manage to get £15m-£20m from Wolves.

I would think a large chunk would be used to accelerate their existing strategy

 

[oldskyblue58]

To follow up from this query OSB. Do you think even in the event that a significant transfer fee was received, that it's questionable whether SISU would sell?

They've seen that money is there to be earned from the interest on loans, so due to this - and even if in the event they received a significant transfer fee - would SISU even be interested in selling? Or do you think they'll just want rid and accept a nominal bid from whatever interested party?

wont consider selling until they reach an acceptable level in terms of their debt - 2020 accounts show Otium owed £19m in capital & interest.

If the interest is actually paid each year then less inclined to sell i would think especially if they are not required to fund the club. The rates of interest for their investors are very good.

If they can make the model work so it is profitable then potentially in time they could even extract dividends - long way off that right now. Which might mean they retain their interest in the club.

If the club stays in the Championship then its worth more, if it has little or no debt it is worth more, if it develops a squad of talented youngsters it is worth more, if Otium has history of paying its interest then that strangely makes the company more desirable to other investors.

It all points to them not selling any time soon in my opinion but i could well be wrong and they surprise me

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I definitely think better more progressive owners wouldn’t want returns for failure and certainly not 14% rates of interest

What would the club do. Do you think anyone would lend it money without charging interest? And probably much higher than Sisu are? I get you want them to be like other owners and put money in but that’s not what’s happening.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

To even be vaguely competitive budget wise requires around a £15-20 million commitment. Given that we will not hit that without a bumper transfer fee each year or average crowds north of 25k you would be needing additional investment to stay in the division, not money going back out.

So I think that’s you saying mid table would be ok and enjoyable but with these owners unlikely so let’s hope they sell to someone who is willing to put their own money in without wanting it back

Fingers crossed

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

In what world are investors guaranteed a return other than these horrible high finance scumbags

Most financial institutions only take on investments where a return is guaranteed and as the interest rates increase there is more of a risk. Would you lend money to ccfc?

 

[Grendel]

What would the club do. Do you think anyone would lend it money without charging interest? And probably much higher than Sisu are? I get you want them to be like other owners and put money in but that’s not what’s happening.

The point you seem to not grasp though is the owners take money out as interest when they can not capital - so this effectively will become a dividend for the investors and the capital remains so the interest again then increases

The other big issue on selling is she isn’t trusted by anyone due to her reputation and behaviours so even trying to buy is very problematic

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Pete I don't want to rain on your parade - and I'm asking sincerely here - but what do you actually gain from meeting Joy? I have a contact who's regularly in the boardroom who used to meet Joy often as they are friends (not sure if he still does I haven't seen him in a while due to the pandemic) and said in the past he'll only ever be told what she wants him to hear and would rarely receive whole truths - something he was frustrated by but accepted.

With respect and I don't mean to sound condescending in any way but why would she be any different with you? Understandably some contact is better than none but from a personal standpoint I just don't see the value. As if she cannot answer fundamental questions such as those you've outlined, any contact with her at all is, in my opinion, utterly meaningless.

The fact she didn't answer your question (I assume she didn't) is fairly synonymous with her character - keeping her cards incredibly close to her chest and willing to share little or nothing at all.

Our fan base needs some influence at board level and that is the overall aim of being involved. Without skin in the game this is difficult as supporters don’t risk their money at the level bsb refers to but we risk the history of our city and our club and that stands for a lot
Pretty sure I was used to ensure the narrative was changed around Sisu ccfc moving to Birmingham was completely their fault. I’m happy being used in that way cause I think it was important. Why do we have relationships with anyone? To hopefully get opportunities to influence mate. I hope I’ve done my bit with ccc wasps ccfc and Sisu and at least that’s something rather than nothing

In terms of currently the supporters forum enables a link between ccfc and supporters groups and we are part of that. Surely that’s a good thing ? No?

Mark and Tynan have an excellent relationship with many supporters and are very willing to listen and take action where they can to progress the club. We need to pull together. That’s a good thing? No?

I know I’m naive compared to many of you but if I want to talk to many of these people about concerns I have or ideas for change then I pick up the phone and ask them as I’ve built up a relationship. They all bleed they all hurt they all have desires and it would be good to think of people as people rather than monsters or angels.

I’m a people person and I think when you’re in relationship you can ask and say things you can’t when you’re not. Will I get joy to sell for lower than she wants? Maybe. Will I get her to care more for decisions she takes that affect nameless thousands by being polite and friendly and caring? Maybe not but I can try.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The point you seem to not grasp though is the owners take money out as interest when they can not capital - so this effectively will become a dividend for the investors and the capital remains so the interest again then increases

The other big issue on selling is she isn’t trusted by anyone due to her reputation and behaviours so even trying to buy is very problematic

I’m not disagreeing given my friends experience but how do you know no one trusts her? I know people that do

 

[SlowerThanPlatt]

Our fan base needs some influence at board level and that is the overall aim of being involved. Without skin in the game this is difficult as supporters don’t risk their money at the level bsb refers to but we risk the history of our city and our club and that stands for a lot
Pretty sure I was used to ensure the narrative was changed around Sisu ccfc moving to Birmingham was completely their fault. I’m happy being used in that way cause I think it was important. Why do we have relationships with anyone? To hopefully get opportunities to influence mate. I hope I’ve done my bit with ccc wasps ccfc and Sisu and at least that’s something rather than nothing

In terms of currently the supporters forum enables a link between ccfc and supporters groups and we are part of that. Surely that’s a good thing ? No?

Mark and Tynan have an excellent relationship with many supporters and are very willing to listen and take action where they can to progress the club. We need to pull together. That’s a good thing? No?

I know I’m naive compared to many of you but if I want to talk to many of these people about concerns I have or ideas for change then I pick up the phone and ask them as I’ve built up a relationship. They all bleed they all hurt they all have desires and it would be good to think of people as people rather than monsters or angels.

I’m a people person and I think when you’re in relationship you can ask and say things you can’t when you’re not. Will I get joy to sell for lower than she wants? Maybe. Will I get her to care more for decisions she takes that affect nameless thousands by being polite and friendly and caring? Maybe not but I can try.

Just a suggestion, do you send the questions over before a meeting to see whether they will be prepared to answer? Feels counterproductive to go in there with a list of questions they’re not going to answer.

 

[Grendel]

I’m not disagreeing given my friends experience but how do you know no one trusts her?

The council and her have no relationship. The wasps owners clearly have significant reservations and her constant ability to get to the dotted line and then change the rules. She has a reputation and seemingly enjoys living up to it

 

[Grendel]

Just a suggestion, do you send the questions over before a meeting to see whether they will be prepared to answer? Feels counterproductive to go in there with a list of questions they’re not going to answer.

The match day experience stuff is fine. Personally I’d stay well clear of boardroom discussions

 

[KenilworthSkyBlue]

Our fan base needs some influence at board level and that is the overall aim of being involved. Without skin in the game this is difficult as supporters don’t risk their money at the level bsb refers to but we risk the history of our city and our club and that stands for a lot
Pretty sure I was used to ensure the narrative was changed around Sisu ccfc moving to Birmingham was completely their fault. I’m happy being used in that way cause I think it was important. Why do we have relationships with anyone? To hopefully get opportunities to influence mate. I hope I’ve done my bit with ccc wasps ccfc and Sisu and at least that’s something rather than nothing

In terms of currently the supporters forum enables a link between ccfc and supporters groups and we are part of that. Surely that’s a good thing ? No?

Mark and Tynan have an excellent relationship with many supporters and are very willing to listen and take action where they can to progress the club. We need to pull together. That’s a good thing? No?

I know I’m naive compared to many of you but if I want to talk to many of these people about concerns I have or ideas for change then I pick up the phone and ask them as I’ve built up a relationship. They all bleed they all hurt they all have desires and it would be good to think of people as people rather than monsters or angels.

I’m a people person and I think when you’re in relationship you can ask and say things you can’t when you’re not. Will I get joy to sell for lower than she wants? Maybe. Will I get her to care more for decisions she takes that affect nameless thousands by being polite and friendly and caring? Maybe not but I can try.

Again I don't want to rain on your parade Pete. I really don't. But what value are you actually adding?

I was in a sponsors and ambassadors meeting just prior to the move to St Andrews where Tynan and Boddy allowed us to each air our grievances and ask questions about the future of the club - as well as share ideas as how to attract more fans/target demographics/raise commercial revenue etc and most of the ideas were pretty good.

Both Boddy and Tynan are incredibly receptive and personable but I felt more could've been achieved from that meeting (it ended up being a bit of a mud slinging match) so I feel if you're committed to adding value, wouldn't we be better getting a small group together to meet with both Boddy and Tynan together to discuss club operations and see if/how we could be of use. As with respect, and I hope you don't mind me speaking openly, but I hugely question what value you're adding by asking a few questions (which I can imagine are met with the same response) then heading on your way.

If we could organise something of this ilk and in these meetings ask what areas they are struggling with (whether it be in marketing, ideas how to better target a particular demographic, or introducing contacts to the club etc) and see how we could help then I feel we would be far better placed to be of use.

There's a tonne of ways I think fans would be able to help the club but I feel little point in getting on the phone to ring either Boddy or Tynan as realistically will they follow through given their work load? If something like I've mentioned is set up in a more formal manner however where we could follow up with an action report and a progress report I feel more could be achieved.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The point you seem to not grasp though is the owners take money out as interest when they can not capital - so this effectively will become a dividend for the investors and the capital remains so the interest again then increases

The other big issue on selling is she isn’t trusted by anyone due to her reputation and behaviours so even trying to buy is very problematic

Are the loans not compound interest, in which case doesn't matter if they're paying back the loan or the interest?

 

[COVKIDSNEVERQUIT]

We get that you want the manager gone? Well thank god you don’t decide on that one

For the last 4 years all your prophecies and opinions on where we are headed have been wrong and I understand that pisses you off. We are doing brilliantly on the pitch and we need more transparency from our owners about the plan but we also need to give robins and boddy some respect for what they have achieved and trust them to keep going rather than looking for every opportunity to prove how bad they are and how the sky is going to fall down

We should start to refer to you as Henny Penny

 

[Grendel]

An appropriate Gif for once but not for the reason you intended

 

[COVKIDSNEVERQUIT]

An appropriate Gif for once but not for the reason you intended

 

[Skyblueweeman]

The council and her have no relationship. The wasps owners clearly have significant reservations and her constant ability to get to the dotted line and then change the rules. She has a reputation and seemingly enjoys living up to it

A council whose conduct has been scrutinized and can be classed as questionable and owners of a rugby franchise who've moved a club 100 miles from it's current location on a permanent basis?

Jesus...that's like saying Saddam wouldn't talk to Pol Pot because of his human rights record....

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So I think that’s you saying mid table would be ok and enjoyable but with these owners unlikely so let’s hope they sell to someone who is willing to put their own money in without wanting it back

Fingers crossed

That's basically what this league is Pete, parachute payments allow crazy money at the top end, a few other clubs also spending what they haven't got means that we either have to seriously overperform every season, rake in a huge fee for someone or find a very charitable owner. If we could be assured of mid table every season I'd snap your hand off

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

That's basically what this league is Pete, parachute payments allow crazy money at the top end, a few other clubs also spending what they haven't got means that we either have to seriously overperform every season, rake in a huge fee for someone or find a very charitable owner. If we could be assured of mid table every season I'd snap your hand off

Yep agreed

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Just a suggestion, do you send the questions over before a meeting to see whether they will be prepared to answer? Feels counterproductive to go in there with a list of questions they’re not going to answer.

I think all questions are answered by the club. We have only met joy once but that’s hasn’t stopped ongoing conversation. Whether the club give the answers we want well you tell me.
A case in point was everyone on here wanted to ask are we in for Walsh are we giving contracts to Kelly or Mcfazdean. Fair question but the club won’t and err that not cause they aren’t being transparent but because it would hamper their ability and be pretty unprofessional

As you build up respect you can ask harder questions. Like where you said we have the 12th largest budget the year we went up when it was the 5th largest with income from player sales why did you do that?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

A council whose conduct has been scrutinized and can be classed as questionable and owners of a rugby franchise who've moved a club 100 miles from it's current location on a permanent basis?

Jesus...that's like saying Saddam wouldn't talk to Pol Pot because of his human rights record....

Yep I’m happy they are all pretty poor in the way they have acted. I have to say in their own way each of those groups are honourable and personable and I’ve spoken to them all and received information that’s useful. I know the council in particular many are marmite when it comes to their arrogance

 

[Grendel]

What would the club do. Do you think anyone would lend it money without charging interest? And probably much higher than Sisu are? I get you want them to be like other owners and put money in but that’s not what’s happening.

Well I assume Mr Boddy and co are more than willing to point to Stoke and £91 million losses - perhaps you’d like to show them the page on the accounts which shows the owners have provided interest free loans and commit to continue to do so

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well I assume Mr Boddy and co are more than willing to point to Stoke and £91 million losses - perhaps you’d like to show them the page on the accounts which shows the owners have provided interest free loans and commit to continue to do so

That would be because the gambling tycoon wankers who own them are fans of the club and filthy rich