12 year old raped in nuneaton (1 Viewer)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The problem has been low wage migrants are a constant cumulative net cost (financially speaking) and I think even some average wage migrants will become a cumulative net cost if they remain here into old age. This is the same as a lot of lower paid Uk born…they’re a cumulative net cost to the state. An additional problem is if we’re replacing UK workers with foreign born and U.K. born then just go onto welfare we’re creating an even bigger mess

Said it before, we’re running the country like a giant scheme ponzu scheme with short term thinking, no longer term vision and just kicking the can. Increasing a population, who ultimately will get old themselves yet productivity and GDP per capita decreasing .

To answer the question, we should’ve been encouraging child birth rates with better assistance around child care etc (it’s finally improving) and also accept that we will need net positive migration for both jobs/skills and financial contribution but this has to be controlled/managed properly….just having net ‘000s per annum is impossible to absorb without proper planning

Ps Before any meltdowns off anyone I’m fully aware that people (UK and foreign born) offer more than just a financial input to the state/country. I’m just explaining purely on financial terms

A lot of this is very fair, I'd just add that unless we want to scrap most of the social safety net, or eliminate things like state education, the big majority of people born in the UK will be a net cost to the state.

 

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[chiefdave]

Was going to put this in the politics thread but really it belongs here in the immigration thread.

@Nick, can you rename the thread? Its become a pretty interesting debate on immigration but not particularly pleasant to see the thread title keep popping up.

 

[shmmeee]

A lot of this is very fair, I'd just add that unless we want to scrap most of the social safety net, or eliminate things like state education, the big majority of people born in the UK will be a net cost to the state.

Depends how you count it. If you don’t become an AI researcher but do not commit loads of crimes thanks to your education what’s the impact of that cost?

There’s always an element of paying people not to be cunts/tramps in civilisation. One of the problems with right wing thinking is that you could just leave everyone to rot and they won’t fuck your life up too.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Depends how you count it. If you don’t become an AI researcher but do not commit loads of crimes thanks to your education what’s the impact of that cost?

There’s always an element of paying people not to be cunts/tramps in civilisation. One of the problems with right wing thinking is that you could just leave everyone to rot and they won’t fuck your life up too.

Tax and abiding by the law are people fulfilling their side of the bargain to the state to provide a functioning country to live in. Understandably when you keep doing those two things, but the state doesn't seem to be upholding its own side of the bargain, you get people like Reform knocking on No. 10's door.

 

[shmmeee]

Tax and abiding by the law are people fulfilling their side of the bargain to the state to provide a functioning country to live in. Understandably when you keep doing those two things, but the state doesn't seem to be upholding its own side of the bargain, you get people like Reform knocking on No. 10's door.

As I’ve been saying throughout I think it’s more when you don’t recognise the demographic issues we’ve got you make silly demands like zero immigration lower taxes or higher welfare spending and insist it’s all down to government competence that we can’t have our cake and eat it.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

As I’ve been saying throughout I think it’s more when you don’t recognise the demographic issues we’ve got you make silly demands like zero immigration lower taxes or higher welfare spending and insist it’s all down to government competence that we can’t have our cake and eat it.

I do share the concerns of some of the anti-immigration crowd on here. The cost of living feels absurdly high, be it the mortgage, food, utilities or just getting around, while pay in real terms is miles behind where it was in 2010. Meanwhile the quality of public services feels like it's getting continually worse, there's huge backlogs causing hotels to be full of asylum seekers with nothing to do, and it takes an age for new infrastructure or indeed anything to get built. I say 'feels like' because that's ultimately what matters when it comes to elections and which politicians you look to for answers.

Someone comes along and points the finger at Johnny Foreigner and says if we stopped letting him in things would be easier, it sounds simple and there's a visible scapegoat you can latch onto. The vast, vast majority of immigrants are law abiding people who pay their taxes and contribute to the economy and society. Blaming them for the state of the country is in my view a mistake.

 

[SBT]

@Nick, can you rename the thread? It’s become a pretty interesting debate on immigration but not particularly pleasant to see the thread title keep popping up.

Not sure you need to rename the thread, you don’t want to brush shocking stories like this under the carpet. But clearly there’s an appetite to talk more broadly about immigration and a thread like this one probably doesn’t feel like the right place.

 

[shmmeee]

I do share the concerns of some of the anti-immigration crowd on here. The cost of living feels absurdly high, be it the mortgage, food, utilities or just getting around, while pay in real terms is miles behind where it was in 2010. Meanwhile the quality of public services feels like it's getting continually worse, there's huge backlogs causing hotels to be full of asylum seekers with nothing to do, and it takes an age for new infrastructure or indeed anything to get built. I say 'feels like' because that's ultimately what matters when it comes to elections and which politicians you look to for answers.

Someone comes along and points the finger at Johnny Foreigner and says if we stopped letting him in things would be easier, it sounds simple and there's a visible scapegoat you can latch onto. The vast, vast majority of immigrants are law abiding people who pay their taxes and contribute to the economy and society. Blaming them for the state of the country is in my view a mistake.

Yeah, I think purely economically the maths changes slightly post Brexit now we have shit off a source of well paid and better integrated immigration. I think it’s fair democratically to say you want some immigration reduced.

But you’ve got to live in reality. There’s people on here talking about mass murder or invading France FFS. Others who think we can stop 100% of illegal immigration, or that fewer people will mean better services.

 

[chiefdave]

View attachment 45050

Once you hit 70 you start costing a lot and contributing a little on average.

We need to have a serious conversation about right to die, and not the weak version that's been talked about in parliament recently.

When dealing with my Dad I hear the same thing over and over from every relative of people in the care home, "they wouldn't want to live like this", while most healthcare professionals will tell you the same thing, that science has reached a point where we are keeping people alive past the point their bodies and brains can reasonably stand.

I can't imagine there's many people who have had years watching the decline and distress of a loved one who think there's anything beneficial in keeping them alive.

Obviously not talking about culling old people when they're no longer economically active but I don't see any benefit in spending huge amounts of money keeping people alive against their will.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

We need to have a serious conversation about right to die, and not the weak version that's been talked about in parliament recently.

When dealing with my Dad I hear the same thing over and over from every relative of people in the care home, "they wouldn't want to live like this", while most healthcare professionals will tell you the same thing, that science has reached a point where we are keeping people alive past the point their bodies and brains can reasonably stand.

I can't imagine there's many people who have had years watching the decline and distress of a loved one who think there's anything beneficial in keeping them alive.

Obviously not talking about culling old people when they're no longer economically active but I don't see any benefit in spending huge amounts of money keeping people alive against their will.

I agree. Trouble is it's easier to get/show results with drugs/treatement that increase quantity of life, much harder for anything that improves quality of life.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The problem has been low wage migrants are a constant cumulative net cost (financially speaking) and I think even some average wage migrants will become a cumulative net cost if they remain here into old age. This is the same as a lot of lower paid Uk born…they’re a cumulative net cost to the state. An additional problem is if we’re replacing UK workers with foreign born and U.K. born then just go onto welfare we’re creating an even bigger mess

Said it before, we’re running the country like a giant scheme ponzu scheme with short term thinking, no longer term vision and just kicking the can. Increasing a population, who ultimately will get old themselves yet productivity and GDP per capita decreasing .

To answer the question, we should’ve been encouraging child birth rates with better assistance around child care etc (it’s finally improving) and also accept that we will need net positive migration for both jobs/skills and financial contribution but this has to be controlled/managed properly….just having net ‘000s per annum is impossible to absorb without proper planning

Ps Before any meltdowns off anyone I’m fully aware that people (UK and foreign born) offer more than just a financial input to the state/country. I’m just explaining purely on financial terms

I agree with the short term thinking, no longer term vision and kicking the can aspect, but then you start talking about encouraging increased child birth rates when you've pointed out yourself that immigrants that are economically active now could become a net cost if they stay here in old age.

The same is true of increased birth rates. At some point those children will get old and require care, probably an even higher percentage than now. So that's just kicking the can down the road as well, just kicking it a bit further (although you have to also factor in they will be a cost burden for the first couple of decades of their life too)

Increased birth rates isn't an answer, it's a sticking plaster on a gushing wound.

 

[shmmeee]

I agree with the short term thinking, no longer term vision and kicking the can aspect, but then you start talking about encouraging increased child birth rates when you've pointed out yourself that immigrants that are economically active now could become a net cost if they stay here in old age.

The same is true of increased birth rates. At some point those children will get old and require care, probably an even higher percentage than now. So that's just kicking the can down the road as well, just kicking it a bit further (although you have to also factor in they will be a cost burden for the first couple of decades of their life too)

Increased birth rates isn't an answer, it's a sticking plaster on a gushing wound.

Either we’re growing as a species or we’re declining. I’m not sure there’s such a thing as a steady state. The idea is each generation keeps having kids not a one off baby boom so it’s not really a sticking plaster.

I know you’re a fan of a degrowth economy I’ve just never seen anyone even come close to explaining how it would work.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Either we’re growing as a species or we’re declining. I’m not sure there’s such a thing as a steady state. The idea is each generation keeps having kids not a one off baby boom so it’s not really a sticking plaster.

I know you’re a fan of a degrowth economy I’ve just never seen anyone even come close to explaining how it would work.

Japan

 

[rob9872]

It's ok saying have more kids but we need to be able to afford them. That means nurseries, houses on one wage etc. We only have 1, we would have liked more but live in a small house and at the time could only afford bigger in less desirable areas.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It's ok saying have more kids but we need to be able to afford them. That means nurseries, houses on one wage etc. We only have 1, we would have liked more but live in a small house and at the time could only afford bigger in less desirable areas.

Would universal childcare have helped?

 

[shmmeee]

Japan

I mean that’s the model people want right?

Should be noted that even as the poster child for anti immigration they too have been sent crazy by Twitter and think they’re overrun with immigrants.

And what have they got? High suicide, overtime culture due to lack of workers, massive social isolation. And still have had to go back to immigration as the solution:

Improved Immigration: Japan’s Solution to Its Population Crisis

"Improved support for immigrants entering Japan will be crucial for the country's efforts to attract more youth from abroad and resolve its population crisis."

hir.harvard.edu

Also:

 

[rob9872]

Would universal childcare have helped?

Too long past now tge clock isnt ticking, would've been more for my daughter than us, ideally 2 close together, she's 17 now so hopefully she'll be lucky enough to give us grandchildren at some point.

UC would have helped with day to day costs but not necessarily housing unless we'd gone into rented.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It's ok saying have more kids but we need to be able to afford them. That means nurseries, houses on one wage etc. We only have 1, we would have liked more but live in a small house and at the time could only afford bigger in less desirable areas.

Housing affordability and/ or wages are an issue to be addressed.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Either we’re growing as a species or we’re declining. I’m not sure there’s such a thing as a steady state. The idea is each generation keeps having kids not a one off baby boom so it’s not really a sticking plaster.

I know you’re a fan of a degrowth economy I’ve just never seen anyone even come close to explaining how it would work.

It gets to a tipping point whereby you're taking more than is sustainable and once you're doing that you're setting yourself up for a huge cataclysmic ending. That is where we are.

I think of it as a cancer. If the tumour is growing for the cancer it all seems good. Until the body it's in can't sustain it, the body dies and so the cancer ends up dying too. Now if you have a benign growth then it and the body sustaining it can both co-exist.

We're in a symbiotic relationship with the planet around us and we disrupt that we're just causing problems for ourselves. If we keep on adding more and more people then we're just speeding up our own demise, be it via disease, conflict for ever diminishing resources or huge natural disasters our own behaviour has worsened.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It gets to a tipping point whereby you're taking more than is sustainable and once you're doing that you're setting yourself up for a huge cataclysmic ending. That is where we are.

I think of it as a cancer. If the tumour is growing for the cancer it all seems good. Until the body it's in can't sustain it, the body dies and so the cancer ends up dying too. Now if you have a benign growth then it and the body sustaining it can both co-exist.

We're in a symbiotic relationship with the planet around us and we disrupt that we're just causing problems for ourselves. If we keep on adding more and more people then we're just speeding up our own demise, be it via disease, conflict for ever diminishing resources or huge natural disasters our own behaviour has worsened.

Perhaps better to address the "taking more than is sustainable" than to wind down the human race

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Perhaps better to address the "taking more than is sustainable" than to wind down the human race

No-one's saying wind down the human race.

I'm saying that this idea that we need to have more people every generation in perpetuity is clearly going to be taking more than is sustainable and far more likely to lead to the end of the human race.

Now for some like Musk that means spreading out into other planets, which at the moment is not feasible and I'd argue those that left for other planets would evolve and stop being homo sapiens anyway so we die out anyway. Of course those on Earth will eventually as well for whatever reason.

Anyway, for me survival means having a population level that is sustainable with the environment it exists in, not the economy it exists in.

 

[shmmeee]

It gets to a tipping point whereby you're taking more than is sustainable and once you're doing that you're setting yourself up for a huge cataclysmic ending. That is where we are.

I think of it as a cancer. If the tumour is growing for the cancer it all seems good. Until the body it's in can't sustain it, the body dies and so the cancer ends up dying too. Now if you have a benign growth then it and the body sustaining it can both co-exist.

We're in a symbiotic relationship with the planet around us and we disrupt that we're just causing problems for ourselves. If we keep on adding more and more people then we're just speeding up our own demise, be it via disease, conflict for ever diminishing resources or huge natural disasters our own behaviour has worsened.

That’s a pretty bleak view of humankind man

 

[shmmeee]

No-one's saying wind down the human race.

I'm saying that this idea that we need to have more people every generation in perpetuity is clearly going to be taking more than is sustainable and far more likely to lead to the end of the human race.

Now for some like Musk that means spreading out into other planets, which at the moment is not feasible and I'd argue those that left for other planets would evolve and stop being homo sapiens anyway so we die out anyway. Of course those on Earth will eventually as well for whatever reason.

Anyway, for me survival means having a population level that is sustainable with the environment it exists in, not the economy it exists in.

Theres tons of room left and we could just go to space. Theres real reason to limit humankind. Anyway we’re mostly talking about not having a declining population.