A lot of this is very fair, I'd just add that unless we want to scrap most of the social safety net, or eliminate things like state education, the big majority of people born in the UK will be a net cost to the state.The problem has been low wage migrants are a constant cumulative net cost (financially speaking) and I think even some average wage migrants will become a cumulative net cost if they remain here into old age. This is the same as a lot of lower paid Uk born…they’re a cumulative net cost to the state. An additional problem is if we’re replacing UK workers with foreign born and U.K. born then just go onto welfare we’re creating an even bigger mess
Said it before, we’re running the country like a giant scheme ponzu scheme with short term thinking, no longer term vision and just kicking the can. Increasing a population, who ultimately will get old themselves yet productivity and GDP per capita decreasing.
To answer the question, we should’ve been encouraging child birth rates with better assistance around child care etc (it’s finally improving) and also accept that we will need net positive migration for both jobs/skills and financial contribution but this has to be controlled/managed properly….just having net ‘000s per annum is impossible to absorb without proper planning
Ps Before any meltdowns off anyone I’m fully aware that people (UK and foreign born) offer more than just a financial input to the state/country. I’m just explaining purely on financial terms
A lot of this is very fair, I'd just add that unless we want to scrap most of the social safety net, or eliminate things like state education, the big majority of people born in the UK will be a net cost to the state.
Tax and abiding by the law are people fulfilling their side of the bargain to the state to provide a functioning country to live in. Understandably when you keep doing those two things, but the state doesn't seem to be upholding its own side of the bargain, you get people like Reform knocking on No. 10's door.Depends how you count it. If you don’t become an AI researcher but do not commit loads of crimes thanks to your education what’s the impact of that cost?
There’s always an element of paying people not to be cunts/tramps in civilisation. One of the problems with right wing thinking is that you could just leave everyone to rot and they won’t fuck your life up too.
Tax and abiding by the law are people fulfilling their side of the bargain to the state to provide a functioning country to live in. Understandably when you keep doing those two things, but the state doesn't seem to be upholding its own side of the bargain, you get people like Reform knocking on No. 10's door.
I do share the concerns of some of the anti-immigration crowd on here. The cost of living feels absurdly high, be it the mortgage, food, utilities or just getting around, while pay in real terms is miles behind where it was in 2010. Meanwhile the quality of public services feels like it's getting continually worse, there's huge backlogs causing hotels to be full of asylum seekers with nothing to do, and it takes an age for new infrastructure or indeed anything to get built. I say 'feels like' because that's ultimately what matters when it comes to elections and which politicians you look to for answers.As I’ve been saying throughout I think it’s more when you don’t recognise the demographic issues we’ve got you make silly demands like zero immigration lower taxes or higher welfare spending and insist it’s all down to government competence that we can’t have our cake and eat it.
Not sure you need to rename the thread, you don’t want to brush shocking stories like this under the carpet. But clearly there’s an appetite to talk more broadly about immigration and a thread like this one probably doesn’t feel like the right place.@Nick, can you rename the thread? It’s become a pretty interesting debate on immigration but not particularly pleasant to see the thread title keep popping up.
I do share the concerns of some of the anti-immigration crowd on here. The cost of living feels absurdly high, be it the mortgage, food, utilities or just getting around, while pay in real terms is miles behind where it was in 2010. Meanwhile the quality of public services feels like it's getting continually worse, there's huge backlogs causing hotels to be full of asylum seekers with nothing to do, and it takes an age for new infrastructure or indeed anything to get built. I say 'feels like' because that's ultimately what matters when it comes to elections and which politicians you look to for answers.
Someone comes along and points the finger at Johnny Foreigner and says if we stopped letting him in things would be easier, it sounds simple and there's a visible scapegoat you can latch onto. The vast, vast majority of immigrants are law abiding people who pay their taxes and contribute to the economy and society. Blaming them for the state of the country is in my view a mistake.
We need to have a serious conversation about right to die, and not the weak version that's been talked about in parliament recently.
I agree. Trouble is it's easier to get/show results with drugs/treatement that increase quantity of life, much harder for anything that improves quality of life.We need to have a serious conversation about right to die, and not the weak version that's been talked about in parliament recently.
When dealing with my Dad I hear the same thing over and over from every relative of people in the care home, "they wouldn't want to live like this", while most healthcare professionals will tell you the same thing, that science has reached a point where we are keeping people alive past the point their bodies and brains can reasonably stand.
I can't imagine there's many people who have had years watching the decline and distress of a loved one who think there's anything beneficial in keeping them alive.
Obviously not talking about culling old people when they're no longer economically active but I don't see any benefit in spending huge amounts of money keeping people alive against their will.
I agree with the short term thinking, no longer term vision and kicking the can aspect, but then you start talking about encouraging increased child birth rates when you've pointed out yourself that immigrants that are economically active now could become a net cost if they stay here in old age.The problem has been low wage migrants are a constant cumulative net cost (financially speaking) and I think even some average wage migrants will become a cumulative net cost if they remain here into old age. This is the same as a lot of lower paid Uk born…they’re a cumulative net cost to the state. An additional problem is if we’re replacing UK workers with foreign born and U.K. born then just go onto welfare we’re creating an even bigger mess
Said it before, we’re running the country like a giant scheme ponzu scheme with short term thinking, no longer term vision and just kicking the can. Increasing a population, who ultimately will get old themselves yet productivity and GDP per capita decreasing.
To answer the question, we should’ve been encouraging child birth rates with better assistance around child care etc (it’s finally improving) and also accept that we will need net positive migration for both jobs/skills and financial contribution but this has to be controlled/managed properly….just having net ‘000s per annum is impossible to absorb without proper planning
Ps Before any meltdowns off anyone I’m fully aware that people (UK and foreign born) offer more than just a financial input to the state/country. I’m just explaining purely on financial terms
I agree with the short term thinking, no longer term vision and kicking the can aspect, but then you start talking about encouraging increased child birth rates when you've pointed out yourself that immigrants that are economically active now could become a net cost if they stay here in old age.
The same is true of increased birth rates. At some point those children will get old and require care, probably an even higher percentage than now. So that's just kicking the can down the road as well, just kicking it a bit further (although you have to also factor in they will be a cost burden for the first couple of decades of their life too)
Increased birth rates isn't an answer, it's a sticking plaster on a gushing wound.
JapanEither we’re growing as a species or we’re declining. I’m not sure there’s such a thing as a steady state. The idea is each generation keeps having kids not a one off baby boom so it’s not really a sticking plaster.
I know you’re a fan of a degrowth economy I’ve just never seen anyone even come close to explaining how it would work.
Would universal childcare have helped?It's ok saying have more kids but we need to be able to afford them. That means nurseries, houses on one wage etc. We only have 1, we would have liked more but live in a small house and at the time could only afford bigger in less desirable areas.
Japan
Too long past now tge clock isnt ticking, would've been more for my daughter than us, ideally 2 close together, she's 17 now so hopefully she'll be lucky enough to give us grandchildren at some point.Would universal childcare have helped?
Housing affordability and/ or wages are an issue to be addressed.It's ok saying have more kids but we need to be able to afford them. That means nurseries, houses on one wage etc. We only have 1, we would have liked more but live in a small house and at the time could only afford bigger in less desirable areas.
It gets to a tipping point whereby you're taking more than is sustainable and once you're doing that you're setting yourself up for a huge cataclysmic ending. That is where we are.Either we’re growing as a species or we’re declining. I’m not sure there’s such a thing as a steady state. The idea is each generation keeps having kids not a one off baby boom so it’s not really a sticking plaster.
I know you’re a fan of a degrowth economy I’ve just never seen anyone even come close to explaining how it would work.
Perhaps better to address the "taking more than is sustainable" than to wind down the human raceIt gets to a tipping point whereby you're taking more than is sustainable and once you're doing that you're setting yourself up for a huge cataclysmic ending. That is where we are.
I think of it as a cancer. If the tumour is growing for the cancer it all seems good. Until the body it's in can't sustain it, the body dies and so the cancer ends up dying too. Now if you have a benign growth then it and the body sustaining it can both co-exist.
We're in a symbiotic relationship with the planet around us and we disrupt that we're just causing problems for ourselves. If we keep on adding more and more people then we're just speeding up our own demise, be it via disease, conflict for ever diminishing resources or huge natural disasters our own behaviour has worsened.
No-one's saying wind down the human race.Perhaps better to address the "taking more than is sustainable" than to wind down the human race
That’s a pretty bleak view of humankind manIt gets to a tipping point whereby you're taking more than is sustainable and once you're doing that you're setting yourself up for a huge cataclysmic ending. That is where we are.
I think of it as a cancer. If the tumour is growing for the cancer it all seems good. Until the body it's in can't sustain it, the body dies and so the cancer ends up dying too. Now if you have a benign growth then it and the body sustaining it can both co-exist.
We're in a symbiotic relationship with the planet around us and we disrupt that we're just causing problems for ourselves. If we keep on adding more and more people then we're just speeding up our own demise, be it via disease, conflict for ever diminishing resources or huge natural disasters our own behaviour has worsened.
No-one's saying wind down the human race.
I'm saying that this idea that we need to have more people every generation in perpetuity is clearly going to be taking more than is sustainable and far more likely to lead to the end of the human race.
Now for some like Musk that means spreading out into other planets, which at the moment is not feasible and I'd argue those that left for other planets would evolve and stop being homo sapiens anyway so we die out anyway. Of course those on Earth will eventually as well for whatever reason.
Anyway, for me survival means having a population level that is sustainable with the environment it exists in, not the economy it exists in.
Not the sharpest tool though is he. The silent MAJORITY mmmmmm loljust when you thought it couldn’t get any more embarrassing for the police
Embarrassed police officer knocks on 'anti-migrant' protester's door
Footage shows the Warwickshire officer hesitantly approaching the Nuneaton property before ringing the doorbell.www.dailymail.co.uk
our own coventry football cops are visiting people houses handing out leaflets
crime must not be an issue anymore if police can spend a whole day driving to a dozen houses issuing leaflets
I think you'll be surprised Pete. Whilst certainly not a majority, there could easily be a significant number and we know many will join the bandwagon to let off steam and cause major disorder up and down the country. With warmer weather, it'll only take another incident like Southport to ignite it and I don't think services could cope. Be shocked if we get through the summer without any riots. Hope I'm wrong.Not the sharpest tool though is he. The silent MAJORITY mmmmmm lol
Rigid 30% which is a sizeable minority not a majorityI think you'll be surprised Pete. Whilst certainly not a majority, there could easily be a significant number and we know many will join the bandwagon to let off steam and cause major disorder up and down the country. With warmer weather, it'll only take another incident like Southport to ignite it and I don't think services could cope. Be shocked if we get through the summer without any riots. Hope I'm wrong.
But there needs to be space for everything else as well as us. We can't just take over everywhere and build on it because we rely on nature ourselves for food and oxygen amongst other things. Then there's the problems with drainage, landslip etc. and areas that we're just not designed to cope very well with - desert (which is expanding rapidly and going to cause even more issue with migration in coming years), tundra, high altitude etc.Theres tons of room left and we could just go to space. Theres real reason to limit humankind. Anyway we’re mostly talking about not having a declining population.
Happy Saturday to one and all.But there needs to be space for everything else as well as us. We can't just take over everywhere and build on it because we rely on nature ourselves for food and oxygen amongst other things. Then there's the problems with drainage, landslip etc. and areas that we're just not designed to cope very well with - desert (which is expanding rapidly and going to cause even more issue with migration in coming years), tundra, high altitude etc.
We're already seeing the massive impact on our own health and ecosystems with how far we've spread already. It's widely believed our expansion is a major factor in what is effectively an extinction event going on right now. If we keep going there are going to be catastrophic effects..
But there needs to be space for everything else as well as us. We can't just take over everywhere and build on it because we rely on nature ourselves for food and oxygen amongst other things. Then there's the problems with drainage, landslip etc. and areas that we're just not designed to cope very well with - desert (which is expanding rapidly and going to cause even more issue with migration in coming years), tundra, high altitude etc.
We're already seeing the massive impact on our own health and ecosystems with how far we've spread already. It's widely believed our expansion is a major factor in what is effectively an extinction event going on right now. If we keep going there are going to be catastrophic effects..
It gets to a tipping point whereby you're taking more than is sustainable and once you're doing that you're setting yourself up for a huge cataclysmic ending. That is where we are.
I think of it as a cancer. If the tumour is growing for the cancer it all seems good. Until the body it's in can't sustain it, the body dies and so the cancer ends up dying too. Now if you have a benign growth then it and the body sustaining it can both co-exist.
We're in a symbiotic relationship with the planet around us and we disrupt that we're just causing problems for ourselves. If we keep on adding more and more people then we're just speeding up our own demise, be it via disease, conflict for ever diminishing resources or huge natural disasters our own behaviour has worsened.
He’s a c unit too smarmy rich fucker who only gives a shit about keeping it for himself and his croniesHe saw people in a boat, got excited and assumed it was more dirty asylum seekers to smear. Got the people of Great Yarmouth whipped up and ready for some more smearing…then had to stand down. Quite revealing about his mindset
Rupert Lowe MP mistook charity rowers as possible 'illegal migrants' - BBC News
Rupert Lowe says he will donate £1,000 to charity but makes "no apologies over being vigilant".www.bbc.co.uk
It's the prevailing attitude now. Make things up that you know your supporters will believe and then go 'oh FINE then' when proven wrong.He’s a c unit too smarmy rich fucker who only gives a shit about keeping it for himself and his cronies
We used to fight these people now we do his work for him utter disgrace
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