Immigration and Asylum (2 Viewers)

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Really @Ccfcisparks ? I know you weirdos like to club together, but I'm dragged in by name a day after no post and labelled stupid, but you emoji poo me asking him about City? Strange, but not surprised.
I didn’t drag you in by name, I replied to a post you made with some facts as a favour because what you posted made you look stupid. As usual you can’t take that help gracefully so went to attack the man as you can’t attack the points being made. You always have the choice to not believe the lies you’re repeating. As I just said, no one thinks you’re more stupid than the politicians who you buy into. They know what they’re spouting is BS, they just think you’re stupid enough to buy into it. You don’t have to indulge them.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
I think this is the problem with the likes of Reform being far right and the likes of Labour being centre to centre right. Just because everyone (apart from the greens) seem to have moved to the right does not mean that is the new centre - we just have more right wing thinking (despite when asked about most issues the public tend to be more progressive). Tories are most definitely right wing in terms of economics and culture.

Just out of interest what about the Tories makes you think they aren't right wing in their ideology?
I dont think their policies are necessarily centrist and economically i agree, but with Greens moving one way and Reform/Restore the other, who between them are likely to collect about 60% of the vote between them if polls are to be believed, then anything left by definition is more central. The general direction might have moved, but if you go back to your school days for mean, mode and median, it would be interesting to see where they all fall.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
I didn’t drag you in by name, I replied to a post you made with some facts as a favour because what you posted made you look stupid. As usual you can’t take that help gracefully so went to attack the man as you can’t attack the points being made. You always have the choice to not believe the lies you’re repeating. As I just said, no one thinks you’re more stupid than the politicians who you buy into. They know what they’re spouting is BS, they just think you’re stupid enough to buy into it. You don’t have to indulge them.
Wrong again Tony, you replied to Dougins post about Ball Hill which had nothing to do with me and mentioned me 24 hours after my last post and brought me in again. You did the same on Grenners post the day before which I let slide as it was more timebound. I still disagree with your 'facts' because again you chose a specific period of time to suit your argument as always.

Eccles or Torp?
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
I think this is the problem with the likes of Reform being far right and the likes of Labour being centre to centre right. Just because everyone (apart from the greens) seem to have moved to the right does not mean that is the new centre - we just have more right wing thinking (despite when asked about most issues the public tend to be more progressive). Tories are most definitely right wing in terms of economics and culture.

Just out of interest what about the Tories makes you think they aren't right wing in their ideology?

There is no way the current Labour government is centre right. This is just a social media driven misconception by many on the left, which Polanski is also trying to leverage.

Here’s a few centre left/left policies and decisions off the top of my head; increasing resident docs pay without any prerequisites/commitments immediately following election, increasing taxes on all (even stricter tax on non doms), freezing tax thresholds for higher earners, removing two child benefit cap, substantial minimum wage increases especially for youth, workers rights bill, free school meals, no attempt to reduce/reform welfare spending, increasing taxes on businesses and overall increasing borrowing/spending by tens of billions per annum.

I actually agree with a couple of the above but I literally could not name any centre right policies or decisions they’ve implemented
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
If wanting no net immigration whatsoever is moderate then…crikey. Don’t think even Reform have pushed that have they?
You're misquoting me again. As you very well know my net migration theory is purely economical and I've mentioned nothing about any repatriation and simply had a time limit. Its unsustainable. I said pause net migration until we have the infrastructure eg housing and services, we simply dont have enough resources currently for what we have, every additional headcount makes that worse. That's not left, right or anything else, but imo reasonable. Net zero also means we continue to accept but only based on the number who emigrate, which is currently stoll about 500k per year.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
You're misquoting me again. As you very well know my net migration theory is purely economical and I've mentioned nothing about any repatriation and simply had a time limit. Its unsustainable. I said pause net migration until we have the infrastructure eg housing and services, we simply dont have enough resources currently for what we have, every additional headcount makes that worse. That's not left, right or anything else, but imo reasonable. Net zero also means we continue to accept but only based on the number who emigrate, which is currently stoll about 500k per year.
How have you been misquoted? No net immigration is what I had you down as saying.

None of the parties with a chance of forming the next government are advocating that (currently), so it’s not a moderate position.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
There is no way the current Labour government is centre right. This is just a social media driven misconception by many on the left, which Polanski is also trying to leverage.

Here’s a few centre left/left policies and decisions off the top of my head; increasing resident docs pay without any prerequisites/commitments immediately following election, increasing taxes on all (even stricter tax on non doms), freezing tax thresholds for higher earners, removing two child benefit cap, substantial minimum wage increases especially for youth, workers rights bill, free school meals, no attempt to reduce/reform welfare spending, increasing taxes on businesses and overall increasing borrowing/spending by tens of billions per annum.

I actually agree with a couple of the above but I literally could not name any centre right policies or decisions they’ve implemented
Free school meals remain heavily means tested, they should be universal. There is however a big mischaracterisation of progressive tax policies which I think you’re guilty of here: the assumption that ‘the left’ want higher taxes across the board. That grinds my gears a fair bit.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
How have you been misquoted? No net immigration is what I had you down as saying.

None of the parties with a chance of forming the next government are advocating that (currently), so it’s not a moderate position.
By adding the word 'whatsoever', as I've clearly pointed out to you many times there is a difference between pause and being forever.

I also think that if many potential Reform voters didn't believe the answer was at least zero then they would lose a lot of credibility, but the grifters have never been brave enough to actually put a number to it, which is actually a smart thing to do since they are pretty much a one policy party.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
By adding the word 'whatsoever', as I've clearly pointed out to you many times there is a difference between pause and being forever.

I also think that if many potential Reform voters didn't believe the answer was at least zero then they would lose a lot of credibility, but the grifters have never been brave enough to actually put a number to it, which is actually a smart thing to do since they are pretty much a one policy party.
Whatsoever in the sense of the number zero rather than however long you see it going for.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
There is no way the current Labour government is centre right. This is just a social media driven misconception by many on the left, which Polanski is also trying to leverage.

Here’s a few centre left/left policies and decisions off the top of my head; increasing resident docs pay without any prerequisites/commitments immediately following election, increasing taxes on all (even stricter tax on non doms), freezing tax thresholds for higher earners, removing two child benefit cap, substantial minimum wage increases especially for youth, workers rights bill, free school meals, no attempt to reduce/reform welfare spending, increasing taxes on businesses and overall increasing borrowing/spending by tens of billions per annum.

I actually agree with a couple of the above but I literally could not name any centre right policies or decisions they’ve implemented
Their immigration approach is a bit right
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Free school meals remain heavily means tested, they should be universal. There is however a big mischaracterisation of progressive tax policies which I think you’re guilty of here: the assumption that ‘the left’ want higher taxes across the board. That grinds my gears a fair bit.

My point was more that those things listed aren’t centre right policies/decisions so the attempts by those on the more ideological left to portray the government as that are at best disingenuous. Polanski also smells blood so he’s leaning into that rhetoric in the hope of picking up disenchanted and ill informed Labour voters
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
Whatsoever in the sense of the number zero rather than however long you see it going for.
Semantics really, but adds a level as net zero is net zero and doesn't need anything adding, other than I've consistently said only for a time period until our own house is in order.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
My point was more that those things listed aren’t centre right policies/decisions so the attempts by those on the more ideological left to portray the government as that are at best disingenuous. Polanski also smells blood so he’s leaning into that rhetoric in the hope of picking up disenchanted and ill informed Labour voters
That makes sense and I agree it’s what Polanski is aiming for. I’d still characterise this government as centrist though.
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
Their immigration approach is a bit right

I’d not say so Pete. They need to get proper control of the asylum situation. By all accounts some of the stuff they’re looking to bring in isn’t dissimilar to Denmarks government (left leaning). Whether the PLP allows it, who knows

If you want further right, have a look at the recent EUs vote on asylum/deportations


or Merz (Germany) saying he expects 80% of Syrian refugees to return home within three years
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
There is no way the current Labour government is centre right. This is just a social media driven misconception by many on the left, which Polanski is also trying to leverage.

Here’s a few centre left/left policies and decisions off the top of my head; increasing resident docs pay without any prerequisites/commitments immediately following election, increasing taxes on all (even stricter tax on non doms), freezing tax thresholds for higher earners, removing two child benefit cap, substantial minimum wage increases especially for youth, workers rights bill, free school meals, no attempt to reduce/reform welfare spending, increasing taxes on businesses and overall increasing borrowing/spending by tens of billions per annum.

I actually agree with a couple of the above but I literally could not name any centre right policies or decisions they’ve implemented
Going back to their election campaign their plan was 'growth', involving things like deregulation and more freedom for companies. It was the manifesto of a moderate Tory party.

Their stance on immigration is moving more and more to the right to try and appease the loud mouthed minority and the rise of Reform. Would a left wing PM use the phrase 'nation of strangers'?

They're trying to treat the economy like a household budget and 'balance the books', hence the tax rises because they basically they backed themselves into a corner with election pledges and even with that as you say yourself borrowing is still increasing. Although there has been increased budgets for a lot of councils there is still huge financial pressure on them as they can't afford everything they're supposed to provide. We're still not investing as much as we need to on our services with departments not replacing staff that are leaving/retiring and expecting those left to fill the gaps so they can claim no job losses. We've got paramedics being told to look abroad for jobs because there aren't enough here for them, despite everyone knowing ambulance and A+E waiting times being ridiculous.

Hence why I say their policies are centre to centre right.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Their stance on immigration is moving more and more to the right to try and appease the loud mouthed minority and the rise of Reform. Would a left wing PM use the phrase 'nation of strangers'?

If we are getting into semantics then the Labour Party under Michael Foot wanted out of the EEC as it was then and was committed to British jobs first - the Communist Party supported Brexit
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
My point was more that those things listed aren’t centre right policies/decisions so the attempts by those on the more ideological left to portray the government as that are at best disingenuous. Polanski also smells blood so he’s leaning into that rhetoric in the hope of picking up disenchanted and ill informed Labour voters
I’m curious Steve. What is it you think these Labour voters are ill informed about.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
As in believing the government are centre right when I’ve listed all the of the polices and decisions made to date that indicate they are anything but
I’ll address some of those points. British doctors are underpaid when comparing them to doctors in comparable countries. The UK is haemorrhaging doctors and other NHS staff and has been for decades. Paying them competitively is not left wing, it’s common sense.

They didn’t move any tax thresholds meaning that the burden of paying taxes was disproportionately put on lower earners. Very right wing, not in the slightest left wing.

They removed the two child benefit cap they did under duress. It was not volunteered by any stretch of the imagination. Then there’s other austerity measures on benefits that they’ve not reversed. If they were left wing at the bare minimum they would have turned the dial back to before the 2012 welfare reform act. They haven’t, very right wing.

Minimum wage has only gone up I think 25 times in 27 years so doesn’t even equate to an annual pay rise. There’s also the small issue that the cost of living has outpaced minimum wage increases for years now so in real terms it’s a wage cut keeping lots of hard working people in relative poverty. Couple that with the tax thresholds not moving meaning a lot of low earners started paying tax for the first time so a double whammy. Not very left wing by any stretch of the imagination.

The workers rights bill. Christ Steve you’re taking the piss now. It’s barely watering down what’s been happening to workers rights since Thatcher. If they were truly even centre left they’d have turned the dial back to pre thatcher, they haven’t even turned the dial back to the Blair/Brown government

Free school meals. A true left government wouldn’t means test free school meals.

Welfare state. I think it’s disingenuous to say that Labour have done nothing. If they hadn’t been forced to do U-turns they’d have gone a lot further. Plus look at who they’re targeting, disability benefits for instance. Existing claimants of UC health element has been frozen, new claimants are only entitled to half as much. They’ve changed the PIP eligibility criteria costing individuals something like £4K a year. Overall they’re predicted to push an extra 250k into abject poverty about a fifth of who will be children. You’re going to have to explain how that is anyway left wing.

Corporate/business tax. Our corporate taxes are not high compared to comparable countries and still lower than average compared with all OECD’s. They’re still lower than the USA for example and I think you’re be hard pressed convincing anyone that the USA is left wing.

Borrowing. You’re being disingenuous again. The key driver of borrowing in the UK is servicing existing debt in the face of increasing inflation and high interest rates. The other main drivers are just the state of the world effecting inflation especially. Coupled with weak growth not least because of the B word. You also contradict yourself. You want them to tackle borrowing but you don’t want them to raise taxes.

Literally the only thing Labour policy that’s remotely left you haven’t even mentioned. Nationalising the railways. Even then it’s only partially. Even the way they’re doing it isn’t left. They’re not borrowing the money to buy out private rail operators, they’re letting the the franchises running out and falling into public ownership by default. A true left government would be renationalising a lot more, starting with the water companies. The only reason they’re renationalising the railways is because it’s a good business case. They’re not doing it through ideology.
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
I’ll address some of those points. British doctors are underpaid when comparing them to doctors in comparable countries. The UK is haemorrhaging doctors and other NHS staff and has been for decades. Paying them competitively is not left wing, it’s common sense.

They didn’t move any tax thresholds meaning that the burden of paying taxes was disproportionately put on lower earners. Very right wing, not in the slightest left wing.

They removed the two child benefit cap they did under duress. It was not volunteered by any stretch of the imagination. Then there’s other austerity measures on benefits that they’ve not reversed. If they were left wing at the bare minimum they would have turned the dial back to before the 2012 welfare reform act. They haven’t, very right wing.

Minimum wage has only gone up I think 25 times in 27 years so doesn’t even equate to an annual pay rise. There’s also the small issue that the cost of living has outpaced minimum wage increases for years now so in real terms it’s a wage cut keeping lots of hard working people in relative poverty. Couple that with the tax thresholds not moving meaning a lot of low earners started paying tax for the first time so a double whammy. Not very left wing by any stretch of the imagination.

The workers rights bill. Christ Steve you’re taking the piss now. It’s barely watering down what’s been happening to workers rights since Thatcher. If they were truly even centre left they’d have turned the dial back to pre thatcher, they haven’t even turned the dial back to the Blair/Brown government

Free school meals. A true left government wouldn’t means test free school meals.

Welfare state. I think it’s disingenuous to say that Labour have done nothing. If they hadn’t been forced to do U-turns they’d have gone a lot further. Plus look at who they’re targeting, disability benefits for instance. Existing claimants of UC health element has been frozen, new claimants are only entitled to half as much. They’ve changed the PIP eligibility criteria costing individuals something like £4K a year. Overall they’re predicted to push an extra 250k into abject poverty about a fifth of who will be children. You’re going to have to explain how that is anyway left wing.

Corporate/business tax. Our corporate taxes are not high compared to comparable countries and still lower than average compared with all OECD’s. They’re still lower than the USA for example and I think you’re be hard pressed convincing anyone that the USA is left wing.

Borrowing. You’re being disingenuous again. The key driver of borrowing in the UK is servicing existing debt in the face of increasing inflation and high interest rates. The other main drivers are just the state of the world effecting inflation especially. Coupled with weak growth not least because of the B word. You also contradict yourself. You want them to tackle borrowing but you don’t want them to raise taxes.

Literally the only thing Labour policy that’s remotely left you haven’t even mentioned. Nationalising the railways. Even then it’s only partially. Even the way they’re doing it isn’t left. They’re not borrowing the money to buy out private rail operators, they’re letting the the franchises running out and falling into public ownership by default. A true left government would be renationalising a lot more, starting with the water companies. The only reason they’re renationalising the railways is because it’s a good business case. They’re not doing it through ideology.

I’m not going to get into a long tooing and frooing on each point as we seem to disagree with what left and right leaning means so there’s no point. Ask yourself how many of the policies the Tories would’ve happily introduced in the first two years of government though.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
I’m not going to get into a long tooing and frooing on each point as we seem to disagree with what left and right leaning means so there’s no point. Ask yourself how many of the policies the Tories would’ve happily introduced in the first two years of government though.
Which version of the Tories? Thatcher always said her greatest achievement was New Labour. Major I think would have been proud and given that they haven’t turned the clock back to even the coalition government so would Cameron. Unless you’re talking about the pound shop reform that the Tories have been morphing into since 2016 even under May and certainly since Boris and the great cull of 2019 I think that the frontline traditional Tory governments of the past or indeed in opposition would have happily set out current labour policies in a manifesto. Indeed some policies would have gone too far given how workers rights would have been stronger under Thatcher.

You’re statement on it’s own is a great measurement of how much the dial has moved when you think that the Tories of the last decade are a reflection of Tory traditions. The party had a complete 180, their looney far right back benchers became their frontline. The Tories (or what’s left of it) is nothing like its predecessor. It’s pure folly to suggest otherwise.

I think you’ve lost sight of who the Tories were and what they’ve become. Maybe you aren’t as old as me so never experienced the Thatcher or Major government personally. But surely you can see the difference between Cameron’s government and the current Tory party. It’s quite a chasm.
 

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