Immigration and Asylum (19 Viewers)

[PVA]

People on this forum have a tendency to try and make those aged between 16-35 the bad guy.

Not just this forum, it's a general issue.

The worst kind are those who seem to want younger generations to go through hardship, as some sort of moral life lesson, rather than wanting better for future generations.

 

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[Mucca Mad Boys]

You seem to be suggesting reducing pensions that are already being paid out.

The statement is not incorrect either

It’s a huge own goal too because a massive % of the pension bill is public sector pensions. IIRC, BSB and others have argued against reforming public sector pensions.

Without being too harsh, there’s a certain cowardice to reform various systems that obvious dysfunctional. Labour was founded as a party for trade unionist, working people… not the underclass for do not work. Loss of this focus is why centre-left parties across Europe are being decimated, priorities are all over the place.

1m UC claimants had no requirement to work in 2021, that’s no 4m in 2025. In 4 years it’s quadrupled...

Of course, let’s go after pensioners who have by and large, paid into the system their entire lives.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You seem to be suggesting reducing pensions that are already being paid out.

The statement is not incorrect either

Are you saying that people can receive the state pension if they've never paid into the system? I've not written anywhere that the pension should be reduced.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Of course, let’s go after pensioners who have by and large, paid into the system their entire lives.

And it's emotional lines like this which prevent meaningful discussion. We can't and won't ever have a serious discussion on pensions because it's too uncomfortable, so instead we'll focus on smearing the group that contributes a much smaller proportion of the total.

 

[LarryGrayson]

underclass huh

 

[Grendel]

And it's emotional lines like this which prevent meaningful discussion. We can't and won't ever have a serious discussion on pensions because it's too uncomfortable, so instead we'll focus on smearing the group that contributes a much smaller proportion of the total.

I assume you are also referring to public sector workers here so would want doctors teachers etc to have reduced pensions?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I assume you are also referring to public sector workers here so would want doctors teachers etc to have reduced pensions?

I want everyone to have a strong pension.

Out of interest where have you and MMB got the idea from that anyone can get the state pension even if they haven't paid in? That's simply wrong.

 

[PVA]

underclass huh

Open up the workhouses again!

 

[Grendel]

I want everyone to have a strong pension.

Out of interest where have you and MMB got the idea from that anyone can get the state pension even if they haven't paid in? That's simply wrong.

Unemployment still gives you pension credits. Stay at home parents and carers also get pension contributions included

You say you want strong pensions but you are aware the biggest burden on the state regarding pensions is the public sector pension arrangement which is massively in debt?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Unemployment still gives you pension credits. Stay at home parents and carers also get pension contributions included

You say you want strong pensions but you are aware the biggest burden on the state regarding pensions is the public sector pension arrangement which is massively in debt?

Pension credit is separate to the state pension.

The way we finance pensions and the big problems we have on the horizon related to that are what I think should be our biggest focus since we're spending half our welfare bill on it. It's curious to call wanting to discuss how we solve these problems an 'own goal' as he put it.

 

[Grendel]

Pension credit is separate to the state pension.

The way we finance pensions and the big problems we have on the horizon related to that are what I think should be our biggest focus since we're spending half our welfare bill on it. It's curious to call wanting to discuss how we solve these problems an 'own goal' as he put it.

My wife as an example will get a state pension despite not working for the period we were able to clam child benefit as it qualifies you for NI credits (as does carers allowance and unemployment benefit)

Given we have Public Sector strikes in the Health Service already then its hardly realistic to suddenly start slashing their pensions - I am amazed you are suggesting it as its pretty right wing!

Also you were in favour of paying doctors more money as they demand? You do realise that this also down the line adds to the State Sector Pension Burden?

 

[Grendel]

To clarify on NI credits

National Insurance credits​

National Insurance credits are essential for protecting your future entitlement to state benefits and the state pension. These credits can be received even if you are not working, and they count towards some, but not all entitlements. The main benefit they count towards is the state pension. To be eligible for National Insurance credits, you must be aged 16 or over and below state pension age for the year in which you may be credited. There are different types of National Insurance credits, and the type you might receive depends on your individual circumstances. For example, if you are responsible for a child or children, you may be able to get National Insurance credits that count towards the state pension. If you are aged 16 or over and claim child benefit for looking after a child under the age of 12, you will automatically receive class 3 National Insurance credits.

Acumen Financial Partnership™

 

[fernandopartridge]

Children don’t get state handouts and pensioners qualify for state pension based on tax they’ve paid. As for severely disabled people who can’t work, they need state support. Not people with low level ADHD and Austin’s/Aspergers.

Why doesn’t it apply to migrants because the social contract is between British citizens and the British state? If a foreign national cannot sustain themselves, they should leave and if their circumstances change, reapply to enter the country. This is a v basic concept practiced globally. If I wanted to relocate to UAE, Australia and Thailand, do you think they’d be paying be benefits if I run out of money after 5 years?

You get a state pension based on national insurance contributions. If you claim job seekers allowance or employment and support allowance a national insurance contribution is made on your behalf.

I find it funny how you speak with such authority on subjects yet get a lot of things wrong.

 

[fatso]

I want everyone to have a strong pension.

Out of interest where have you and MMB got the idea from that anyone can get the state pension even if they haven't paid in? That's simply wrong.

Your correct, not everyone is paid the state pension, its not an automatic payment to everyone who reaches state retirement age.

However, for those who havnt paid any NI contributions (or stamp) and dont qualify for an automatic pension, they can claim almost the exact same amount of money through the benefits system. (Off the top of my head its about £1 a week less than the state pension)

 

[Captain Dart]

You get a state pension based on national insurance contributions. If you claim job seekers allowance or employment and support allowance a national insurance contribution is made on your behalf.

I find it funny how you speak with such authority on subjects yet get a lot of things wrong.

Then there is Pension Credits.
Pension Credit tops up: your weekly income to £227.10 if you’re single, your joint weekly income to £346.60 if you have a partner
The full rate of new State Pension is £230.25 a week.

Pension Credit

Pension Credit is extra money for pensioners to bring your weekly income up to a minimum amount - what you'll get, apply, eligibility.

www.gov.uk

So sod all difference.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

My wife as an example will get a state pension despite not working for the period we were able to clam child benefit as it qualifies you for NI credits (as does carers allowance and unemployment benefit)

Given we have Public Sector strikes in the Health Service already then its hardly realistic to suddenly start slashing their pensions - I am amazed you are suggesting it as its pretty right wing!

Also you were in favour of paying doctors more money as they demand? You do realise that this also down the line adds to the State Sector Pension Burden?

Why do you keep putting words in my mouth on wanting to slash pensions?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

underclass huh

The clue is in the name ‘Working class’…

I want everyone to have a strong pension.

Out of interest where have you and MMB got the idea from that anyone can get the state pension even if they haven't paid in? That's simply wrong.

This is a rabbit hole, but if we’re splitting hairs, the minimum state pensions eligibility is 10 years of NI contributions…

As @fernandopartridge points out, NI credits are paid on claimants behalf. In practice, it’s v difficult to not be eligible for state pensions if you’re UK born.

You get a state pension based on national insurance contributions. If you claim job seekers allowance or employment and support allowance a national insurance contribution is made on your behalf.

I find it funny how you speak with such authority on subjects yet get a lot of things wrong.

V much splitting hairs here rather than dealing with fundamentals. Eligibility for state pension is qualified through NI contributions for 10 years, as you point out, you get those credits even if you’re on various benefits.

You’ve actually not undermined my point at all, but took a pot shot because I weren’t aware NI credits were given on certain benefits. Whoopy doo, the picture is still the same as I presented in that post.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Why do you keep putting words in my mouth on wanting to slash pensions?

It’s because you keep mentioning the need for pension reform. An observation I’ve (and probably Grendel) made is that you seem unaware just how much of the 50% figure you mentioned earlier is made up of public sector worker pensions.

The current gap on public sector pension pay outs v contributions is £93.8bn over the last 20 years, 2006-2026.

 

[Grendel]

Why do you keep putting words in my mouth on wanting to slash pensions?

You said it’s the biggest cost therefore needs looking at?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s because you keep mentioning the need for pension reform. An observation I’ve (and probably Grendel) made is that you seem unaware just how much of the 50% figure you mentioned earlier is made up of public sector worker pensions.

The current gap on public sector pension pay outs v contributions is £93.8bn over the last 20 years, 2006-2026.

And that in turn links to a trend on the right to substitute 'reform' of something for when they actually mean 'cut'. I want to look at how we can sustainably fund a respectable standard of living for pensioners, not cut what is already a meagre sum if the figures G posted earlier are correct.

I've learned something new on NI credits and pension credits today, so thanks to the posters who've explained it and pointed it out anyway. It doesn't change the problem that I've said we're facing as a country though: people are living longer but having fewer children. It's a very dangerous combination that is going to cause a lot of pain (probably when you and I reach retirement age!) when it reaches a critical mass of not enough people paying in to support those who need the benefit.

Far from 'wanting to target pensioners' this strikes me as a huge threat to the social safety net that we can't avoid discussing just because unemployed people are a more politically convenient target.

 

[Grendel]

And that in turn links to a trend on the right to substitute 'reform' of something for when they actually mean 'cut'. I want to look at how we can sustainably fund a respectable standard of living for pensioners, not cut what is already a meagre sum if the figures G posted earlier are correct.

I've learned something new on NI credits and pension credits today, so thanks to the posters who've explained it and pointed it out anyway. It doesn't change the problem that I've said we're facing as a country though: people are living longer but having fewer children. It's a very dangerous combination that is going to cause a lot of pain (probably when you and I reach retirement age!) when it reaches a critical mass of not enough people paying in to support those who need the benefit.

Far from 'wanting to target pensioners' this strikes me as a huge threat to the social safety net that we can't avoid discussing just because unemployed people are a more politically convenient target.

The biggest pension cost is the burden of public sector workers on pensions the private sector can never now fund.

Unfortunately your “strong unions” would just strike if any reduction even got new entrants into these positions was even suggested so it’s not a conversation governments can have.

 

[Grendel]

And that in turn links to a trend on the right to substitute 'reform' of something for when they actually mean 'cut'. I want to look at how we can sustainably fund a respectable standard of living for pensioners, not cut what is already a meagre sum if the figures G posted earlier are correct.

I've learned something new on NI credits and pension credits today, so thanks to the posters who've explained it and pointed it out anyway. It doesn't change the problem that I've said we're facing as a country though: people are living longer but having fewer children. It's a very dangerous combination that is going to cause a lot of pain (probably when you and I reach retirement age!) when it reaches a critical mass of not enough people paying in to support those who need the benefit.

Far from 'wanting to target pensioners' this strikes me as a huge threat to the social safety net that we can't avoid discussing just because unemployed people are a more politically convenient target.

People aren’t living that much longer than 35 years ago in reality

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The biggest pension cost is the burden of public sector workers on pensions the private sector can never now fund.

Unfortunately your “strong unions” would just strike if any reduction even got new entrants into these positions was even suggested so it’s not a conversation governments can have.

Which ironically, will bring down the entire system over time.

The treasury owes £5.8tn in future public sector pensions alone.

And that in turn links to a trend on the right to substitute 'reform' of something for when they actually mean 'cut'. I want to look at how we can sustainably fund a respectable standard of living for pensioners, not cut what is already a meagre sum if the figures G posted earlier are correct.

I've learned something new on NI credits and pension credits today, so thanks to the posters who've explained it and pointed it out anyway. It doesn't change the problem that I've said we're facing as a country though: people are living longer but having fewer children. It's a very dangerous combination that is going to cause a lot of pain (probably when you and I reach retirement age!) when it reaches a critical mass of not enough people paying in to support those who need the benefit.

Far from 'wanting to target pensioners' this strikes me as a huge threat to the social safety net that we can't avoid discussing just because unemployed people are a more politically convenient target.

Do you understand the differences between how public service pensions differ from the private sector?

Public sector pensions should be defined contributions plan rather than a guaranteed income. The problem the government faces is that public sector pensions aren’t fully funded, it’s a 10% deduction from your pay packet and the end pension is an IOU. It is effectively an accountancy trick to cook the treasury’s books and it’s a ticking time bomb.

Private pensions, I choose what % to contribute, employer matches it and it goes into a fund that is fully visible and to an extent, can choose what to invest in, for better or worse.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

People aren’t living that much longer than 35 years ago in reality

It's about 6 years longer from what I can see which adds up to over £70k extra per head of pension payments.

 

[Grendel]

It's about 6 years longer from what I can see which adds up to over £70k extra per head of pension payments.

not really as the retirement age then was 60 and 65

Do you think public sector pensions should be looked at before the state pension?

 

[Grendel]

It’s because you keep mentioning the need for pension reform. An observation I’ve (and probably Grendel) made is that you seem unaware just how much of the 50% figure you mentioned earlier is made up of public sector worker pensions.

The current gap on public sector pension pay outs v contributions is £93.8bn over the last 20 years, 2006-2026.

The biggest con job is PIP which is just handing people money who can already pay what is covers. It should just be scrapped

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Do you understand the differences between how public service pensions differ from the private sector?

Public sector pensions should be defined contributions plan rather than a guaranteed income. The problem the government faces is that public sector pensions aren’t fully funded, it’s a 10% deduction from your pay packet and the end pension is an IOU. It is effectively an accountancy trick to cook the treasury’s books and it’s a ticking time bomb.

Private pensions, I choose what % to contribute, employer matches it and it goes into a fund that is fully visible and to an extent, can choose what to invest in, for better or worse.

The government have offered a defined contribution scheme for the last 25 years alongside the 'alpha' scheme to be clear.

What is also missing from this is that for similar roles, private sector jobs will typically pay a fair bit better than public sector ones. The more generous pension scheme offsets some of that difference so if you make both the pay and pension less attractive, you can't be surprised if what you're left with are at best demotivated and at worst both demotivated and incompetent staff.

 

[Grendel]

The government have offered a defined contribution scheme for the last 25 years alongside the 'alpha' scheme to be clear.

What is also missing from this is that for similar roles, private sector jobs will typically pay a fair bit better than public sector ones. The more generous pension scheme offsets some of that difference so if you make both the pay and pension less attractive, you can't be surprised if what you're left with are at best demotivated and at worst both demotivated and incompetent staff.

So when you are talking pensions it’s the state pension you want looking at?

Yet you think doctors should have an enormous pay rise AND the tax payer still funding their pensions?

What evidence is there that probate sector pays more? I thought you work in said private sector and said you weren’t rewarded enough?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Open up the workhouses again!

Snarky comments don’t wish the problem away unfortunately.

The biggest con job is PIP which is just handing people money who can already pay what is covers. It should just be scrapped

Yep, I know several people who have milked their diagnosis of mental health/behavioural disorders to get PIP.

^ not even a moral judgement, it’s what the individuals say themselves.

Again, plenty of people who actively choose to live on welfare benefits rather than work minimum wage. Why would work 30+ hours a week to earn marginally more on UC?

The only people who don’t seem to get that these people exist are middle-class lefty types whose exposure to real poverty is limited.

 

[fatso]

And that in turn links to a trend on the right to substitute 'reform' of something for when they actually mean 'cut'. I want to look at how we can sustainably fund a respectable standard of living for pensioners, not cut what is already a meagre sum if the figures G posted earlier are correct.

I've learned something new on NI credits and pension credits today, so thanks to the posters who've explained it and pointed it out anyway. It doesn't change the problem that I've said we're facing as a country though: people are living longer but having fewer children. It's a very dangerous combination that is going to cause a lot of pain (probably when you and I reach retirement age!) when it reaches a critical mass of not enough people paying in to support those who need the benefit.

Far from 'wanting to target pensioners' this strikes me as a huge threat to the social safety net that we can't avoid discussing just because unemployed people are a more politically convenient target.

The number of people paying in makes no difference what so ever. Its a complete myth to suggest that too many pensioners drawing cash out of the system and not enough workers paying in will bankrupt the economy.

The fact is there will always be a set amount of cash in the system.

That cash will circulate throughout the economy, and be taxed at various points.
That tax will always end up back at the treasurey, and the tax will always (eventually) be 100% of the amount of money available.

For example if you pay 25% income tax, you will also pay tax on fuel, tax on nearly all your purchases, and VAT on top.of that.
The companies you spend money with will use that money to pay wages which attracts tax, and then their overheads are subject to tax and so is their profits.

In short, 100% of all money in the "system" eventually ends up back at the treasury as tax.

When pensioners receive their payments, they buy food, petrol, gas, electricity, clothing etc etc etc. All of which are subject to tax which results in all their pension payments ending up back at the treasurey.

And guess what. When they die their estates are subject to tax!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The biggest con job is PIP which is just handing people money who can already pay what is covers. It should just be scrapped

Good that you think my wife is pulling a con with a visual impairment G

 

[Marty]

Just get rid of pensions for people currently under 40. Reduce NI contributions for those people effected and give them a lump sum too invest themselves.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yep, I know several people who have milked their diagnosis of mental health/behavioural disorders to get PIP.

^ not even a moral judgement, it’s what the individuals say themselves.

Again, plenty of people who actively choose to live on welfare benefits rather than work minimum wage. Why would work 30+ hours a week to earn marginally more on UC?

The only people who don’t seem to get that these people exist are middle-class lefty types whose exposure to real poverty is limited.

Rather than again going into anecdotes, put up some evidence about how many people are milking the system and choosing a life of unemployment.

There's no argument that some people do do this...but for the umpteenth time, make work pay and provide the opportunities to do it. Take former mining communities as one example, what if there really is no work going?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Rather than again going into anecdotes, put up some evidence about how many people are milking the system and choosing a life of unemployment.

There's no argument that some people do do this...but for the umpteenth time, make work pay and provide the opportunities to do it. Take former mining communities as one example, what if there really is no work going?

I have numerous times.

4m people are on UC with no requirement to work… this has quadrupled from 2021. Driven by 18-24 year olds claiming for mental health disorders.

With respect, I don’t think you or other have come to terms with this at all because it’s massively inconvenient to confront.

When I was lefty, the argument that most welfare benefits were paid to those in work was true, and they were people like my relatives who worked low paid jobs. Post-COVID, this trend has aggressively flipped and the UK is an outlier compared to all developed countries.

 

[PVA]

Snarky comments don’t wish the problem away unfortunately.

It was a joke. Are we not allowed any humour on here amongst the many arguments?