I put it in quotation marks because someone else said it, calm down.
If you think this problem is a direct result of increased immigration, but you don’t want to limit the minorities that you see as responsible, then what’s your solution?
Israel - Palestinian Conflict (19 Viewers)
- Thread starter napolimp
- Start date
If you think this problem is a direct result of increased immigration, but you don’t want to limit the minorities that you see as responsible, then what’s your solution?
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Of all the clubs in Europe, do you think Tel Aviv have the worst hooligans?
You’re defending the indefensible here. We didn’t ban Turkish teams from visiting who had literally killed English footballs fans abroad.
If we had, would it have been Islamaphobic?
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
It’s a failure of integration, for sure.
Anyone calling for ‘globalise the intifada’, ‘jihad’ or ‘putting zios in the ground’ clearly does not believe in British values and parliamentary democracy.
Anyone who supports extremism should be deported and this is ordinary thing for countries to do.
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
IDF would mean those willingly taking part in the genocide no? Nothing against being Jewish
Crazy talk of course saying they visit Birmingham to watch football. We know what he means. But strictly speaking what he said is not anti semetic is it?
So you are quite clearly calling to limit minorities then? Unless of course you’re suggesting native British extremists should also be deported - not sure if that’s an “ordinary thing for countries to do”.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
No.
The Tel Aviv fans haven’t been banned because of the risk of violence with Villa fans. It’s the wider risk of disorder on the streets with ‘counter protestors’ and from Amsterdam, clashes with local residents because of Birmingham’s demographics.
It’s a failure of policing if they feel the need to ban travelling supporters because of hooliganism. The authorities have a grip on the situation.
It would be national disgrace if the authorities could not guarantee the safety of any minority group.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Israel’s civilian to combatant ratio in the death toll is lower than almost any war in recent history. So unless you consider all war as genocide, I disagree with your opening statement.
The IDF is the Israeli military so it’s a byword for Israeli and Jew. The cleric chose his words carefully enough but the meaning is explicit: that ‘true Islamic’ values are not afforded to ‘enemies of Islam’ i.e. Israel, the Jewish state. It’s clear and obvious incitement.
The example of usury is telling because it is considered ‘haram’ (i.e. a cardinal sin) in Islamic law.
Otis
Well-Known Member
I think you’re drawing an artificial distinction in order to simplify what is quite a complex story with a lot of unknowns. To reduce this story down to ‘apolitical football fans vs sectarian Muslim immigrants’ might be a convenient narrative, but I don’t think it fully reflects everything going on behind the scenes here.
“How dare you say I want to limit minorities - I just want to deport people who don’t share what I deem to be British values”
Otis
Well-Known Member
IDF IS the Israeli military. I don't think it's a byword for Jew though.
It's the military arm of the Israeli government and it's a military arm that's committed genocide.
There are a lot of Jewish people who are totally against what is happening and who are not at all happy with what Netanyahu has been doing.
I don't think you can just say IDF - Jew.
Of course. I'm not saying that 30% of Birmingham (i.e. all Muslims) are looking for trouble. If any are, it will be an absolutely tiny minority. Same as with the Tel Aviv fans.
I'm just saying, with such a large population of Muslims there is a good chance there would be anti Israel protests - which is fine of course, they are perfectly entitled to do so.
And that combined with with the Tel Aviv fans just seems like a recipe for disorder and violence that could kick off in quite a nasty way, regardless of intentions at the outset, if tensions rise.
To be clear, I'm not pinning the blame on the Muslim population of Birmingham - I'm saying it's a factor.
It's an incredibly difficult situation, with an awful lot going on, at a very sensitive time. I can see why the decision was made.
I agree with you about Ayoub Khan, the bloke is a prick.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Weird? Fuck me, have you seen what your nonce boy hero looks like.
Anyone who brainlessly cheers on a sex pest nonce is clearly a bit odd too. And I'm afraid you're the one who hates people.... Ooh the left, ooh immigrants, ooh brown people, ooh people with strange hair. They're all so horrible. Waah, can't we lock them all up.
What's also weird is suddenly faking an interest in Gaza, when for the last two years you couldn't give a shit about it. Or is that just odiously hypocritical. Probably both.
Anyway, my dad had a good word for blokes like you. Gobshite. The approximate definition is completely full of shit, not worth listening too. Good advice.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Exactly that. Criticising the state of Israel and the actions of the IDF in Gaza is not anti-Semitism. That's just an attempt to stop people talking about the genocide in Gaza.
Which is, of course, exactly what it is. Genocide. Pursued not only by tanks, bombs and guns, but also by the intentional suppression of food, water, and medical aid to a civilian population.
Trying to deny this is a deliberate ignorance of the facts. Be honest enough to call it for what it is, and then decide whether you can accept it or not.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
In this context, it is because it’s specifically referring to people coming to Birmingham for the match. There is an equivalence
You wouldn’t accept it if Tommy Robinson referred to all Afghans crossing on small boats as ‘Taliban’. You would rightly denounce that as racists.
In the Middle East, specifically Lebanon and Palestine, relatively common to refer to Israeli’s as ‘Yahoud’. This is why the BBC panorama was landed in hot water because the translation change ‘Yahoud’ to IDF. Which changed the meaning significantly from the speaker.
More obfuscation.
Why would the SAG specifically designate this game as ‘high risk?’ There is no histoy of Israeli football fans kicking off in England.
The PM has come out and condemned the decision saying the police should be able to guarantee the safety of visiting fans. If he was briefed that the decision was because they cannot control unruly Tel Aviv fans, the narrative would be much different.
Yeah. This is what normal countries do.
Judging by your politics, you wouldn’t welcome sectarianism into the UK but that’s what is happening and your head is firmly buried in the sand.
It’s pretty clear cut case when people call for ‘jihad’ and ‘intifada’ on our streets.
We already deny entry to European right wingers who say things that don’t comply with our values. I don’t imagine you decry that.
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
But the blame Muslims in Birmingham not Israel commuting genocide lol.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Would be nice if the people of Gaza’s biggest complaint was not being allowed to fly somewhere to watch a game of football.
65,000 killed, most buildings destroyed, food and medical supplies withheld, the IDF taking pot shots at civilians. Some people can’t call that what it is, and don’t see why there might be some anger at Israelis who will chant in support of what their regime has done. Others don’t care because the victims of this crime are Muslims, the unpopular bogeymen of Europe.
It isn’t hard. Some of us can condemn Hamas as terrorists and Benjamin Netanyahu as a genocidal war criminal. Almost without exception the people on here who are so preoccupied with ‘pro Pal’ demonstrations can’t do the same. Oh, and conflating the Israeli state with representing Judaism is itself anti-Semitic. Maybe some of you forgot that, because maybe your concerns about anti-Semitism are a nice veil to cover more comments about Muslims.
65,000 killed, most buildings destroyed, food and medical supplies withheld, the IDF taking pot shots at civilians. Some people can’t call that what it is, and don’t see why there might be some anger at Israelis who will chant in support of what their regime has done. Others don’t care because the victims of this crime are Muslims, the unpopular bogeymen of Europe.
It isn’t hard. Some of us can condemn Hamas as terrorists and Benjamin Netanyahu as a genocidal war criminal. Almost without exception the people on here who are so preoccupied with ‘pro Pal’ demonstrations can’t do the same. Oh, and conflating the Israeli state with representing Judaism is itself anti-Semitic. Maybe some of you forgot that, because maybe your concerns about anti-Semitism are a nice veil to cover more comments about Muslims.
If you don’t think the recent actions of some Maccabi Tel Aviv fans combined with the recent political environment have changed the risk factors around this game, then I’m not surprised this decision comes as a shock to you.
How do you know what the PM has been briefed on? (I agree with him in this case though)
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
The pertinent question is why are these fans not guaranteed safe passage in our second biggest city? There wouldn’t be concerns if Tel Aviv were playing in Oxford.
The multicultural dream is that we become this melting pot with shared common values.
Two ironies here:
- Jenrick just got pilloried by some parts of the media for decrying lack of integration in Handsworth
- Polanski mae a heart warming video on multiculturalism is in Birmingham
The SAG and WMP have recommended against having away fans because they can’t guarantee the safety of a group of football fans who will mostly be Jewish because of the wider demographics of Birmingham.
If the police had intelligence that it could kick off with local Birmingham populations and when you have a local cleric inciting certain things, it’s really not a good look for Britain.
No, I don’t.
The Dutch authorities actually condemned what could be described as ‘Jew hunts’ from the local population. It’s only left wing journos/outlets who seem to place the blame on Tel Aviv fans.
The SAG and WMP have said that the
Of the arrests in Amsterdam last year, a small % were Tel Aviv fans. The majority that were arrested were locals. This narrative that it was Tel Aviv ultras tearing up the city is nonsense. Yes, there was bad behaviour and chanting on their side.
Back to this, we have hosted football fans with much worse reputations than Tel Aviv so it’s v apparent that this isn’t about football hooliganism.
You cryptically put the ‘recent political environment’. Be honest about what you mean here. The concerns over safety of Israeli football fans isn’t because of middle-class Palestine Action protestors you regularly see in Birmingham. Its concerns are with it kicking off with the locals who have cleric who called Tel Aviv footballs fans visiting Birmingham as ‘the IDF’ and that the usual rule of Islam are disapplied - which is incitement.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Believe it or not but it's not just Muslims who are angry with genocide - Snipers on roof, Udine on max alert for Italy-Israel
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Not a clue mate, don't really keep a close watch on the behaviour of various teams around the world and, unlike many on here who seem to have been following their every move closely, Maccabi Tel Aviv hadn't registered on my radar at all before they came up on here. Having said that it didn't take much research to find several things of concern, not least that the owners of the club appear to endorse the racism in their fan base.
But nobody is claiming they are the worst hooligans in Europe are they? As has been pointed out on this thread they aren't the first, and no doubt won't be the last, club to have restrictions but on their supporters. They aren't even the first club to have visiting supporters banned this season, where's the hundreds of outraged posts about Eintracht fans being banned from Napoli?
The point I was making is I mind it highly unlikely that the SAG and WMP, who have been happily rounding up anti-genocide protesters, have suddenly decided that all jews should be banned from Villa Park. I think its far more likely, as we have experienced ourselves, that a risk assessment has been done and a decision made on that basis.
Do find it slightly odd that after people are making claims of anti-semitism being behind this decision while conflating all jews, Israel, the IDF and ultras. The favoured definition of anti-semitism that people have been pushed to be adopted states that is anti-semitic but increasing that seems to be getting ignored.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
This is more telling about Pro-Pal demos than Israeli football fans.
There’s more Italians worried about protesting the Israeli football team than actually going to the match…
October 7th was an attack with genocidal intent so anyone at these demos is implicitly supporting genocide themselves. One things I’ve seen in London a Birmingham is that these Pro-Pal demonstrators like to wear merchandise/necklaces that depicts the entire area of ‘Israel’ as Palestine. These aren’t people who want a two-state solution, particularly the people who shout for ‘jihad’ or ‘global intifada’ and a lot of people on this thread just ignore that or don’t don’t actually care.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Revealed: Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war
Figures from classified IDF database listed 8,900 named fighters as dead or probably dead in May, as overall death toll reached 53,000
Get a grip.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It's hardly a surprise there are more people angry at genocide than interested in attending a football match, FFS.
This is absolutely mental.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Do you think that what Israel has done qualifies as attempted genocide, ethnic cleansing, or both (or neither)?
“Bad behaviour and chanting” is certainly one way to describe it. But I’m not interested in trying to maintain that one ‘side’ is worse than the other here - clearly you are.
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
I like @Mucca Mad Boys as a posterm I agree on nearly everything with you ccfc wise
But your clearly a very angry/frightened man and it's effecting your views
But your clearly a very angry/frightened man and it's effecting your views
pusbccfc
Well-Known Member
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Twitter rabbit holes have a lot to answer for.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Where are you finding the meeting minutes, risk assessment and reports from these meetings publicly available, I've got nothing coming up in searches. Our SAG wouldn't even give any details of the fucking stupid fence or why we needed multiple blocks empty between home and away fans so it seems a bit odd that all the intelligence on something as sensitive as this has been released.
btw the Israel foreign office has also advised against travel overseas to sporting and cultural events.