Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (20 Viewers)

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TomRad85

TomRad85

Well-Known Member
Evo1883 said:
Yes they've really made this a very murky subject now haven't they .

Mental really
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From what I've seen the response of American Conservatives has generally not been favourable towards what's been said here. They are pretty consistent on the speech thing honestly.
It's the one thing I think America just bodies us at. 'Hate speech' is and always has been absolute drivel. Where is the line? Who decides?
 
Evo1883

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
TomRad85 said:
From what I've seen the response of American Conservatives has generally not been favourable towards what's been said here. They are pretty consistent on the speech thing honestly.
It's the one thing I think America just bodies us at. 'Hate speech' is and always has been absolute drivel. Where is the line? Who decides?
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Il shorten my response to this , the right seem to get offended by hurty wurty words too , unsurprisingly.
They dont actually believe in free speech , only the speech they want to pass as acceptable
 
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TomRad85

TomRad85

Well-Known Member
Evo1883 said:
Il shorten my response to this , the right seem to get offended by hurty wurty words too , unsurprisingly.
They dont actually believe in free speech , only the speech they want to pass as acceptable
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Offended sure but I don't think the police should be after people for words full stop really, or at least far far more rarely than they do. This is probably a separate topic as I am now really talking about the UK, but if people have been in favour of this shit they shouldn't really be surprised when it circles back around.
Politics goes in cycles after all and suddenly when the people at the top change and decide what is and isn't acceptable, people may find themselves in the firing line. Be careful what you wish for and all that.
 
Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
TomRad85 said:
Offended sure but I don't think the police should be after people for words full stop really, or at least far far more rarely than they do. This is probably a separate topic as I am now really talking about the UK, but if people have been in favour of this shit they shouldn't really be surprised when it circles back around.
Politics goes in cycles after all and suddenly when the people at the top change and decide what is and isn't acceptable, people may find themselves in the firing line. Be careful what you wish for and all that.
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Yeah, I can't see the police ever stopping acting over things people have said. Depends what is said doesn't it

Like, if someone said "I am going to rape your 10 year old daughter", you can't NOT police that. There has to be boundaries and that's why true free speech will never ever work.

We can have more free speech, but people cannot just say whatever they want any time they want.

You can't go round shooting racial abuse, such as the likes Kasey Palmer got

I know there are race laws and hate speech etc, but what I am saying is you can't ever have true free speech, as some are advocating. Free speech with zero consequence for what you say

Unfortunately, the police will always have to be involved in certain cases
 
K

KenilworthSkyBlue

Well-Known Member
Evo1883 said:
Il shorten my response to this , the right seem to get offended by hurty wurty words too , unsurprisingly.
They dont actually believe in free speech , only the speech they want to pass as acceptable
Click to expand...

I would caveat this by saying an overwhelming majority of either side doesn't seem to really understand what the actual definition of free speech is to be honest, or, perhaps more crucially, it's limitations.

I'd say the same applies to the UK though as well.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
TomRad85 said:
From what I've seen the response of American Conservatives has generally not been favourable towards what's been said here. They are pretty consistent on the speech thing honestly.
It's the one thing I think America just bodies us at. 'Hate speech' is and always has been absolute drivel. Where is the line? Who decides?
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Well, it used to. Then a fascist got in and was declared to be above the law, so he started filing lawsuits against the press and demanding the firing of anyone for criticising him.
 
chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Another outright lie to add to the list
US President Donald Trump has said he "didn't want" London Mayor Sir Sadiq Khan at the state banquet hosted by the King at Windsor Castle.

Speaking to reporters on Air Force One heading back the US, Trump described Sir Sadiq as "among the worst mayors in the world", saying he had wanted to attend the event, but "I asked that he not be there".

The BBC understands Sir Sadiq did not seek or expect an invite to the state banquet, and a source close to the mayor said Trump's politics sowed "fear and division".
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Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
TomRad85 said:
Offended sure but I don't think the police should be after people for words full stop really, or at least far far more rarely than they do. This is probably a separate topic as I am now really talking about the UK, but if people have been in favour of this shit they shouldn't really be surprised when it circles back around.
Politics goes in cycles after all and suddenly when the people at the top change and decide what is and isn't acceptable, people may find themselves in the firing line. Be careful what you wish for and all that.
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Yep that’s where I am now. You have to be free speech for all or no one
I’m deeply uncomfortable with criminal activity for saying something rather than doing something and no I can’t balance this up with causing someone to act either for suicide self harm or criminal activity
 
Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Otis said:
Yeah, I can't see the police ever stopping acting over things people have said. Depends what is said doesn't it

Like, if someone said "I am going to rape your 10 year old daughter", you can't NOT police that. There has to be boundaries and that's why true free speech will never ever work.

We can have more free speech, but people cannot just say whatever they want any time they want.

You can't go round shooting racial abuse, such as the likes Kasey Palmer got

I know there are race laws and hate speech etc, but what I am saying is you can't ever have true free speech, as some are advocating. Free speech with zero consequence for what you say

Unfortunately, the police will always have to be involved in certain cases
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It’s degrees once you say some words are bad and others are not
True free speech is the aim surely. No one should be criminalised for what they think or say!!?

I don’t know how you weigh it all up but I think one has to start with free speech abolitionist and when making laws you have to make them assuming you have to legislate for all those who may gain power using them.

I’ve seen videos from the USA saying imams are laughing at the USA for allowing Islam to use liberal democracies to get power as a minority to then use it to take ultimate power not only Islamophobic and deeply wrong but also what orban has done in Hungary and it feels like that’s what happening in the USA.
I also feel in a democracy that there’s always been a healthy tension between people power at the ballot box and representative democracy to pay people to think and make the right decisions for society

It’s such a difficult one
 
TomRad85

TomRad85

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete said:
Yep that’s where I am now. You have to be free speech for all or no one
I’m deeply uncomfortable with criminal activity for saying something rather than doing something and no I can’t balance this up with causing someone to act either for suicide self harm or criminal activity
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I think outside of libel, threats and more niche things like encouraging someone to suicide or whatever (which is much more targeted so more of a harassment issue than a free speech one) you should be allowed to say whatever, no matter how vile. Your employer can remove you if they think it damages their reputation sure, that's been the argument of many for years and i agree, not that i agree with grassing to an employer particularly... but people should not be getting knocks at their door with the regularity they are. The police are overstepping in this country, that is clear.
My hope would be a government would walk this back, so from my side a more right wing government, but as i've said above don't be surprised if it circles back. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
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B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
TomRad85 said:
I think outside of libel, threats and more niche things like encouraging someone to suicide or whatever (which is much more targeted so more of a harassment issue than a free speech one) you should be allowed to say whatever, no matter how vile. Your employer can remove you if they think it damages their reputation sure, that's been the argument of many for years and i agree, not that i agree with grassing to an employer particularly... but people should not be getting knocks at their door with the regularity they are. The police are clearing overstepping in this country, that is clear.
My hope would be a government would walk this back, so from my side a more right wing government, but as i've said above don't be surprised if it circles back. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Except that a more right wing government has got in the US and started cracking down on criticism against it. Be careful what you wish for.
 
Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
TomRad85 said:
I think outside of libel, threats and more niche things like encouraging someone to suicide or whatever (which is much more targeted so more of a harassment issue than a free speech one) you should be allowed to say whatever, no matter how vile. Your employer can remove you if they think it damages their reputation sure, that's been the argument of many for years and i agree, not that i agree with grassing to an employer particularly... but people should not be getting knocks at their door with the regularity they are. The police are clearing overstepping in this country, that is clear.
My hope would be a government would walk this back, so from my side a more right wing government, but as i've said above don't be surprised if it circles back. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
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There’s no way an authoritarian ppopulist anti Democratic Party walks this back. I don’t think the police are overstepping they are enacting the law

I agree about harassment and not as much but still do reputational risk for employers
 
TomRad85

TomRad85

Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete said:
There’s no way an authoritarian ppopulist anti Democratic Party walks this back. I don’t think the police are overstepping they are enacting the law

I agree about harassment and not as much but still do reputational risk for employers
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Sorry in what way would a right wing party here be anti democratic? They'll be voted in just like anyone else would and voted out if they are wank just as anyone else would, so i can't take that seriously. I know anything fronted by Farage is exceptionally scary for some, apart from Tony who was voting for him before it was cool, but his party is just filling up with career politicians, not Hitler Youth.
 
Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
TomRad85 said:
Sorry in what way would a right wing party here be anti democratic? They'll be voted in just like anyone else would and voted out if they are wank just as anyone else would, so i can't take that seriously. I know anything fronted by Farage is exceptionally scary for some, apart from Tony who was voting for him before it was cool, but his party is just filling up with career politicians, not Hitler Youth.
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I think that’s naive but you’re probably right (pun intended)
There’s some deeply uncomfortable people and ideas being emboldened as part of reform gaining traction
 
Sick Boy

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
AOM said:
I think it's only going to get worse tbh.
Wouldn't be surprised if there is murky funding coming in from the US to keep a lot of it going
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100%...probably from ultra-religious organisations. A lot of videos across social platforms have obvious bot comments underneath as well.
 
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chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Free speech seems to me one of those things that if you don't really think about it you just reply with of course we should have free speech.

But then when you think about it some more you quickly get lots of situations where you would question if it should apply. Do we want people on their way into abortion clinics being yelled at as we see in the US? Do we want hate preachers like Abu Hamza to be free to preach hate? Should you be able to mock things like the Munich air disaster when you play Man Utd? Should you be able to encourage hate and / or criminal activity.

The question for me is very much where you draw the line. Looking at what Kimmel actually said that comes nowhere close to crossing a line for me and censoring the media for the slightest hint of criticism is a worrying path to head down. Similarly compiling hit lists of people who had said anything you don't agree with on social media around Kirks death and pursuing their employers with the aim of getting people fired is in no way acceptable.
 
Sick Boy

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
chiefdave said:
Free speech seems to me one of those things that if you don't really think about it you just reply with of course we should have free speech.

But then when you think about it some more you quickly get lots of situations where you would question if it should apply. Do we want people on their way into abortion clinics being yelled at as we see in the US? Do we want hate preachers like Abu Hamza to be free to preach hate? Should you be able to mock things like the Munich air disaster when you play Man Utd? Should you be able to encourage hate and / or criminal activity.

The question for me is very much where you draw the line. Looking at what Kimmel actually said that comes nowhere close to crossing a line for me and censoring the media for the slightest hint of criticism is a worrying path to head down. Similarly compiling hit lists of people who had said anything you don't agree with on social media around Kirks death and pursuing their employers with the aim of getting people fired is in no way acceptable.
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Part of the US attacks on free speech in the UK is because they don't like the buffer zones to prevent protests around abortion clinics. We already have the Lord's Prayer and weird chanting of Christ is King before marches, so I wouldn't be surprised if this gets targeted next.
 
Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
Free speech seems to me one of those things that if you don't really think about it you just reply with of course we should have free speech.

But then when you think about it some more you quickly get lots of situations where you would question if it should apply. Do we want people on their way into abortion clinics being yelled at as we see in the US? Do we want hate preachers like Abu Hamza to be free to preach hate? Should you be able to mock things like the Munich air disaster when you play Man Utd? Should you be able to encourage hate and / or criminal activity.

The question for me is very much where you draw the line. Looking at what Kimmel actually said that comes nowhere close to crossing a line for me and censoring the media for the slightest hint of criticism is a worrying path to head down. Similarly compiling hit lists of people who had said anything you don't agree with on social media around Kirks death and pursuing their employers with the aim of getting people fired is in no way acceptable.
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Those are easy ones
 
tisza

tisza

Well-Known Member
“One of their political weapons is ‘cancel culture’ – driving people from their jobs, shaming dissenters and demanding total submission from anyone who disagrees. This is the very definition of totalitarianism, and it is completely alien to our culture and our values, and it has absolutely no place in the United States of America,” Trump said in a July 3 speech at Mount Rushmore. (2020)

So he's just a hypocrite with his usual convenient memory lapses.

Both sides have used "cancel culture" as a weapon. Neither side should be upset by the recent events because they are both as responsible as each other for its existence/use.
 
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