The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (5 Viewers)

[dutchman]

SEPECAT Jaguar - Wikipedia

If it was possible to build multi-national aircraft projects before Britain joined the Common market then it's also possible after Britain leaves.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

What is reform for the better in your opinion? They are tackling undercutting wages. They are trying to get a European policy on immigration, including in countries of origin. This is a benefit of the EU. Without the EU it would be even more difficult to solve the problem and would probably end in bloodshed or borders or concentration camps. Trying to stabilise the main currency in Europe is also an aim "for the better".

What is the UK doing in Europe to create stability, apart from annoying everyone so much that they are united in their approach to Brexit, and what on earth is an "EU puppeteer"? - sounds like meaningless Brexit crap.

The EU is functional. The problem is that the UK is limping from government crisis to crisis and is not functional. We are just negotiating with ourselves, much to the amusement of the rest of the EU.

The 2 economically most powerful countries, now that we have recused ourselves from Europe, are Germany and France. They will set the agenda and the rest will either agree, amend or reject through the European Council and Parliament. It is called democracy, get over it.

You are laughable at times. Democracy as best it can be was the referendum itself- whether you agree with the outcome or how it was achieved matters not!
France & Germany setting the agenda...so it isn't run for the benefit of all the nations really is it. The Germans smooth talk the French & both agree an agenda, then they pull strings left right & centre to get as close to what THEY want...to benefit themselves. 'What's in if for me?' That is what has to be satisfied to change anyone's behaviours.
UK government crisis to crisis? There is now talk of another German election (i.e. ypu exemplary model of democratic government...a coalition...failing...because of? Yep, immigration policy. The Nazi element will be rubbimg their hands with glee) Plus...current policy & enforcement could yet result in widespread bloodshed on our streets instead of the borders!
The UK Govenrnment is now doing what you have applauded the EU for - finding the best way to protect it's citizens interests. So.e things will hurt, some will provide a benefit & nice cozy feeling. Stability in the UK is our Government's primary concern...not EU stability, you seem convinced they can achieve that with out us anyway.
Reform for the better would imo be to focus solely on free trade...not throw free people movement & monetary union into the mix. Obviously, some don't want that - so the democratic decision was made to plough ahead regardless for those that did want it. So, as with most things EU - what Germany wants, Germany gets..all be it a watered down version for the short term. Probably with the thought to making the dissenters suffer in some way - until they beg to join further down the line.
Currency union aim is probably a good idea...but it is something that would be most successful somewhere further down the line...when economies are more closely related & proportioate...which is progressing, but it's too soon imo.

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[SkyblueBazza]

Did the government allow businesses to ignore the minimum wage? If the minimum wage is below the normal wage, which allows immigrants to undercut unskilled British workers, why haven't the government increased the minimum wage or attempted to retrain unskilled labour? We have full employment, so in theory we should all be getting higher wages - immigrant or not. I suspect that a problem is lax employment regulation or enforcement.

Who is a straight talker? And does straight talking mean bullshitting? I prefer listening to reasoned "talking" instead of Farage crap.

I don't know of any businesses ignoring the minimum wage (think you misunderstood or I was not clear on something?)
If the minimum wage was proportionally the same in every country, maybe there would be very little immigration? I doubt anyone (except yourself probably) knows really. Many of the jobs I was referring to were not 'unskilled' Mart. They were skilled...carpenters, bricklayers etc. (Maybe ALL of us even?) EU policy meant their work could be performed for less pay. The migrants from less well off countries would definitely come here to earn more money & a better quality of life than they were getting...which would surely be to the detriment of those countries? Hence EU funding policy...but surely the biggest beneficiaries are fatcats who have no care for the quality of life of the employees in the companies which they reap the dividends from.

In reality...Farage is a very engaging speaker (you certsinly hang on his every word!) & yes that means some take what he says as gospel, others like ypu (& I) take it with a pinch of salt at the very least. BUT even though - he achieved his aim!

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[SkyblueBazza]

What was his stance? What has he got to do with Schengen negotiations? I doubt whether anyone in the EU has sympathy for the bullshitter Farage.

According to you - 51.9% of the UK (part of the EU) had sympathy for him. And had the remain campaigners not had such sympathy for him, they might have presented more emotional & logical compelling reasons to stay!

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[SkyblueBazza]

Doesn't read like that to me. Sounds more like the stance taken by many of Farage's critics. That the rules we already have are sufficient they just aren't enforced correctly.

We have a border in to Europe, people should be processed there whether immigrants, asylum seekers or refugees. The problem is we go and bomb counties like Syria with no plan for handling the inevitable displaced population. Huge numbers flee and the borders to Europe can't cope.

If the system quickly and fairly dealt with people and they were distributed evenly throughout Europe you'd still have a large number of people coming in which is not what Farage wants.

Agree with your sentiment on bombing. If we go in to sort things we should do it fully & properly over many generations...or not go at all.
Why do so many flee to Europe though? Don't know the numbers to compare, but do they flee to Russia? Turkey? We must be so much more welcoming than other parts...then we beat purselves up for not doing enough - too many with disregard for the consequences on infrastructure & quality of life for ourselves.

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[chiefdave]

Why do so many flee to Europe though? Don't know the numbers to compare, but do they flee to Russia? Turkey?

They don't. The numbers don't back that up. For example look at people pouring out of Syria. 3.6m in Turkey, 2.5m Saudi, 2.2m Lebanon, 1.3m Jordan, 600K Germany, 242K UAE, 230K Iraq, Kuwait 155K, Egypt 118K, Sweden 110K, Sudan 100K, Yemen 100K. Its a long way down the list to the UK with 9K. Russia is 7K.

But people don't look at the bigger picture and the total number of people being displaced they just look at the number moving to their country or city.

 

[martcov]

SEPECAT Jaguar - Wikipedia

If it was possible to build multi-national aircraft projects before Britain joined the Common market then it's also possible after Britain leaves.

Yes, but it’s easier as it is now.

 

[martcov]

According to you - 51.9% of the UK (part of the EU) had sympathy for him. And had the remain campaigners not had such sympathy for him, they might have presented more emotional & logical compelling reasons to stay!

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No they didn’t. Some on here can’t stand Farage or say he is irrelevant and are super leavers. The EU is 500 million, 17,4 voted leave and not all of those liked Farage‘s views. I think Farage is regarded as an idiot or annoying twat by the vast majority of EU citizens who actually know who he is.

 

[martcov]

I don't know of any businesses ignoring the minimum wage (think you misunderstood or I was not clear on something?)
If the minimum wage was proportionally the same in every country, maybe there would be very little immigration? I doubt anyone (except yourself probably) knows really. Many of the jobs I was referring to were not 'unskilled' Mart. They were skilled...carpenters, bricklayers etc. (Maybe ALL of us even?) EU policy meant their work could be performed for less pay. The migrants from less well off countries would definitely come here to earn more money & a better quality of life than they were getting...which would surely be to the detriment of those countries? Hence EU funding policy...but surely the biggest beneficiaries are fatcats who have no care for the quality of life of the employees in the companies which they reap the dividends from.

In reality...Farage is a very engaging speaker (you certsinly hang on his every word!) & yes that means some take what he says as gospel, others like ypu (& I) take it with a pinch of salt at the very least. BUT even though - he achieved his aim!

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Having full employment and needing both skilled and unskilled workers is a good problem to have. Certainly not detrimental to have a reciprocal free movement arrangement.

In reality Farage is a smarmy populist and his lies and propaganda appeal to some who find him engaging, but revolt others who see through him.

 

[Westendlad]

Having full employment and needing both skilled and unskilled workers is a good problem to have. Certainly not detrimental to have a reciprocal free movement arrangement.

In reality Farage is a smarmy populist and his lies and propaganda appeal to some who find him engaging, but revolt others who see through him.

Bit like corbyn then yeah....

 

[martcov]

You are laughable at times. Democracy as best it can be was the referendum itself- whether you agree with the outcome or how it was achieved matters not!
France & Germany setting the agenda...so it isn't run for the benefit of all the nations really is it. The Germans smooth talk the French & both agree an agenda, then they pull strings left right & centre to get as close to what THEY want...to benefit themselves. 'What's in if for me?' That is what has to be satisfied to change anyone's behaviours.
UK government crisis to crisis? There is now talk of another German election (i.e. ypu exemplary model of democratic government...a coalition...failing...because of? Yep, immigration policy. The Nazi element will be rubbimg their hands with glee) Plus...current policy & enforcement could yet result in widespread bloodshed on our streets instead of the borders!
The UK Govenrnment is now doing what you have applauded the EU for - finding the best way to protect it's citizens interests. So.e things will hurt, some will provide a benefit & nice cozy feeling. Stability in the UK is our Government's primary concern...not EU stability, you seem convinced they can achieve that with out us anyway.
Reform for the better would imo be to focus solely on free trade...not throw free people movement & monetary union into the mix. Obviously, some don't want that - so the democratic decision was made to plough ahead regardless for those that did want it. So, as with most things EU - what Germany wants, Germany gets..all be it a watered down version for the short term. Probably with the thought to making the dissenters suffer in some way - until they beg to join further down the line.
Currency union aim is probably a good idea...but it is something that would be most successful somewhere further down the line...when economies are more closely related & proportioate...which is progressing, but it's too soon imo.

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The referendum was the best example of how not to do a referendum. Call it advisory and then promise to carry through with the result thus contradicting the purpose of an advisory referendum. People openly lying, exaggerating and even bragging that they led people up the garden path ( Arron Banks‘ own description of how he conned people such as yourself).

Currency union is common sense when you have a single market, as is free movement of capital and people. You are right that currency union cannot work as it is at present because there isn’t a level playing field ( e.g. there are different tax rates and it is difficult to control how governments budget).

Germany and France have influence because of their size, but other smaller countries have joined together to increase their power within the EU. The Parliament doesn’t vote as countries, but along party lines. Your claim that Germany gets all that it wants is just a Brexit Phrase. Meaningless.

Germany is actually in trouble with the EU right now because of the amount of nitrates in rivers.

If you class the UK as a dissenter, I think any suffering will be self inflicted as a result of this cocked up referendum.

 

[martcov]

Bit like corbyn then yeah....

Maybe. I am not a Corbyn fan, but prefer him to the toad Farage.

 

[dutchman]

Germany and France have influence because of their size, but other smaller countries have joined together to increase their power within the EU.

Germany and France don't give a rat's arse what smaller countries like mine think and never will. We are just a tiny vassal state within the new German Reich.

 

[martcov]

Germany and France don't give a rat's arse what smaller countries like mine think and never will. We are just a tiny vassal state within the new German Reich.

You do have a veto right on major issues so your country is not a vassal state. There are 27 other countries in the European Council and more than 600 MEPs from non German countries in the parliament. The parliament does not vote on a country basis anyway.

The vassal state of Holland doesn’t exist, neither does the German Reich. More Brexit terminology. Sad that it now comes from a Dutchman.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

They don't. The numbers don't back that up. For example look at people pouring out of Syria. 3.6m in Turkey, 2.5m Saudi, 2.2m Lebanon, 1.3m Jordan, 600K Germany, 242K UAE, 230K Iraq, Kuwait 155K, Egypt 118K, Sweden 110K, Sudan 100K, Yemen 100K. Its a long way down the list to the UK with 9K. Russia is 7K.

But people don't look at the bigger picture and the total number of people being displaced they just look at the number moving to their country or city.

Wonder how they get those nbrs? How accurate they are? And how many migrate further afterwards?

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[SkyblueBazza]

Having full employment and needing both skilled and unskilled workers is a good problem to have. Certainly not detrimental to have a reciprocal free movement arrangement.

In reality Farage is a smarmy populist and his lies and propaganda appeal to some who find him engaging, but revolt others who see through him.

Well I find him engaging, but accept nothing he says at face value. He is a politician after-all!
'Free movement' propogates cheap labour which some might say helps keep prices down...others might say it helps inflate senior management reward & dividends for shareholders.

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[SkyblueBazza]

You do have a veto right on major issues so your country is not a vassal state. There are 27 other countries in the European Council and more than 600 MEPs from non German countries in the parliament. The parliament does not vote on a country basis anyway.

The vassal state of Holland doesn’t exist, neither does the German Reich. More Brexit terminology. Sad that it now comes from a Dutchman.

Recycling operatives...binmen as we used to call them...everyday role which has been given a puffed-up new name by employers - presumably in the hope of attracting applicants foolish enough not to see straight through the ruse. Trying to hide something...long term unspoken aim could well be German domination of Europe

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[SkyblueBazza]

The referendum was the best example of how not to do a referendum. Call it advisory and then promise to carry through with the result thus contradicting the purpose of an advisory referendum. People openly lying, exaggerating and even bragging that they led people up the garden path ( Arron Banks‘ own description of how he conned people such as yourself).

Currency union is common sense when you have a single market, as is free movement of capital and people. You are right that currency union cannot work as it is at present because there isn’t a level playing field ( e.g. there are different tax rates and it is difficult to control how governments budget).

Germany and France have influence because of their size, but other smaller countries have joined together to increase their power within the EU. The Parliament doesn’t vote as countries, but along party lines. Your claim that Germany gets all that it wants is just a Brexit Phrase. Meaningless.

Germany is actually in trouble with the EU right now because of the amount of nitrates in rivers.

If you class the UK as a dissenter, I think any suffering will be self inflicted as a result of this cocked up referendum.

You are saying Germany (with France in tow) sets the agenda & but suggest it doesn't get what it wants? If you set the agenda & make ANY progress (1st step) toward it - you are getting what you want! A watered down version yes...but a step toward your ultimate goal.

And as for "(Arron Banks‘ own description of how he conned people such as yourself)" shows either total disregard for what I have previously said to you on at least two occasions, or you think I am a liar, or you just don't listen to anything other than what you want to hear unless it allows you to have a bit of a rant.
So...
1. Debate with you is pointless
2. For the record AGAIN - I voted remain

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[Macca]

Recycling operatives...binmen as we used to call them...everyday role which has been given a puffed-up new name by employers - presumably in the hope of attracting applicants foolish enough not to see straight through the ruse. Trying to hide something...long term unspoken aim could well be German domination of Europe

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Not German domination per see but perhaps a bi product of

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Wouldn’t be surprised if Vauxhall is next.

Given what Peugeot did with Ryton and Linwood, I'd say membership of the EU or otherwise is pretty irrelevant, and it's inevitable they'll be gone from the UK in time.

(As an aside, JLR to buy the Vauxhall brand as a form of expansion would have made / would make sense? Cue Grendel as to why it wouldn't )

 

[martcov]

Recycling operatives...binmen as we used to call them...everyday role which has been given a puffed-up new name by employers - presumably in the hope of attracting applicants foolish enough not to see straight through the ruse. Trying to hide something...long term unspoken aim could well be German domination of Europe

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The binmen are part of Merkel’s 4. Reich dreams.

Yeah. Sure. Sounds really credible.

How’s Brexit panning out btw. Anything positive happening? 2 years today. Any celebrations or demonstrations showing the country‘s appreciation of Banks‘, BoJo‘s or Farage‘s wise and engaging leadership?

 

[martcov]

Not German domination per see but perhaps a bi product of

???

WTF

Just tell me what is happening today as a celebration of plucky Brits seeing through this appalling plot of giving binmen a flash title.

 

[martcov]

You are saying Germany (with France in tow) sets the agenda & but suggest it doesn't get what it wants? If you set the agenda & make ANY progress (1st step) toward it - you are getting what you want! A watered down version yes...but a step toward your ultimate goal.

And as for "(Arron Banks‘ own description of how he conned people such as yourself)" shows either total disregard for what I have previously said to you on at least two occasions, or you think I am a liar, or you just don't listen to anything other than what you want to hear unless it allows you to have a bit of a rant.
So...
1. Debate with you is pointless
2. For the record AGAIN - I voted remain

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Apologies if you didn’t fall for the bullshit at the time.

 

[Macca]

???

WTF

Just tell me what is happening today as a celebration of plucky Brits seeing through this appalling plot of giving binmen a flash title.

The key to power and shaping of political ideology in Europe is and will continue to come through Germany as it hold the biggest influence in the continent.

 

[Grendel]

Given what Peugeot did with Ryton and Linwood, I'd say membership of the EU or otherwise is pretty irrelevant, and it's inevitable they'll be gone from the UK in time.

(As an aside, JLR to buy the Vauxhall brand as a form of expansion would have made / would make sense? Cue Grendel as to why it wouldn't )

Yes it would be great - jaguar flourished under badge engineering strategy with Ford and BMW and Rover were a match made in heaven.

Vauxhall is a tarnished brand with a poor reputation

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The binmen are part of Merkel’s 4. Reich dreams.

Yeah. Sure. Sounds really credible.

How’s Brexit panning out btw. Anything positive happening? 2 years today. Any celebrations or demonstrations showing the country‘s appreciation of Banks‘, BoJo‘s or Farage‘s wise and engaging leadership?

Well while you are sitting about filling ypur head with doom & gloom.. others are out there finding opportunities to make a handsome success of a future outside the EU.
My respect goes to them...not you.

And should BMW & Airbus desert us those people can be tempted into filling the posts EU citizens leave behind when they too exodus the UK.

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[Deleted member 5849]

Yes it would be great - jaguar flourished under badge engineering strategy with Ford and BMW and Rover were a match made in heaven.

Vauxhall is a tarnished brand with a poor reputation

Jaguar aren't exactly independent now either. Personally think had BMW had faith, then the FWD platform of ROver could have been just what they needed - they extricated Mini from it anyway, so it turned out alright. The stupidity was anybody taking on Rover *after* BMW without the R&D on new upcoming models coming with that takeover. Worked for VW to bring on tarnished brands like SEAT and Skoda.

Not the first to mention it as an option, anyway.

Is Jaguar Land Rover considering buying Vauxhall from PSA? AROnline blog

 

[SkyblueBazza]

???

WTF

Just tell me what is happening today as a celebration of plucky Brits seeing through this appalling plot of giving binmen a flash title.

Mart...think the binmen post through and stop being a fool

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[Grendel]

Jaguar aren't exactly independent now either. Personally think had BMW had faith, then the FWD platform of ROver could have been just what they needed. Worked for VW to bring on tarnished brands like SEAT and Skoda.

Not the first to mention it as an option, anyway.

Is Jaguar Land Rover considering buying Vauxhall from PSA? AROnline blog

Despite its aspirations VW isn’t a premium brand and used it as a way to expand production

Rover was a shambles

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The key to power and shaping of political ideology in Europe is and will continue to come through Germany as it hold the biggest influence in the continent.

Influence which without the UK will imo go largely unchecked...risking one day French, or Spanish or Italian people becoming upset at feeding that German ideology. And when the French in particular get upset - we all know what happens. They take to the streets & not for just a couple of hrs on a certain day

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[Deleted member 5849]

Despite its aspirations VW isn’t a premium brand and used it as a way to expand production

And any JLR future acquisition would be to move into new markets and to expand though. Why would they go for another premium brand other than to eliminate competition?

 

[Ashdown]

They don't. The numbers don't back that up. For example look at people pouring out of Syria. 3.6m in Turkey, 2.5m Saudi, 2.2m Lebanon, 1.3m Jordan, 600K Germany, 242K UAE, 230K Iraq, Kuwait 155K, Egypt 118K, Sweden 110K, Sudan 100K, Yemen 100K. Its a long way down the list to the UK with 9K. Russia is 7K.

But people don't look at the bigger picture and the total number of people being displaced they just look at the number moving to their country or city.

You are only talking about Syrians here, net migration to the UK generally runs at about 180,000 plus a year from all over the world.

 

[martcov]

Well while you are sitting about filling ypur head with doom & gloom.. others are out there finding opportunities to make a handsome success of a future outside the EU.
My respect goes to them...not you.

And should BMW & Airbus desert us those people can be tempted into filling the posts EU citizens leave behind when they too exodus the UK.

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You didn’t answer the question about how well Brexit is panning out.

Funny that.

 

[martcov]

Mart...think the binmen post through and stop being a fool

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Sorry, I just don’t get the connection between binmen and the 4. Reich.

Please explain how that works.

The 3. Reich got into gear with the reoccupation of the Rheinland. Are you suggesting that the 4. Reich is more low key and starting with the renaming of British binmen?

 

[Sick Boy]

Maybe. I am not a Corbyn fan, but prefer him to the toad Farage.

Come on, you're not fan of the far right so you're automatically a hard leftie.