What is going on with the Tory leadership contest? (15 Viewers)

CCFCSteve · Jul 24, 2019

clint van damme said:
If the debt needs serving why are we cutting taxes for the richest and cutting services for the vulnerable? I though we were all in this together as the slogan said?

Since the Tories came in in 2010, and this is just off the top of my head I'm sure there's more that could be added:

Crime through the roof
Homelessness through the roof
Use of food banks through the roof
A damning UN report on poverty in this country
Wealth inequality through the roof

But if you're happy with that fair enough.
But this country is failing and I doubt Boris is the man to turn it round.

Now I’m all for debate but why make sweeping unsupported comments to go alongside some accurate, fair points ?

Crime through the roof - factually incorrect, recorded crime has continued to fall. Violent crime has gone through the roof and needs addressing, with more police on the streets and also longer term plans around investment in poorer areas etc.

Homelessness through the roof - agreed. It shouldn’t happen at all.

Poverty - I agree that anyone being ‘in poverty’ in the UK is just wrong but the stats have barely changed. Bearing in mind the population has increased by £3.7m since 2010 and in that I’m not sure of the number of low paid migrants included in that figure but either way let’s just agree the figures haven’t significantly changed.

Poverty in the UK: a guide to the facts and figures

As mentioned previously, there has been a wage suppression for the lowest paid, which is finally improving and disposable income for the poorest will hopefully finally be increasing.

Wealth inequality - agreed. I also find those who earn millions or tens of millions and don’t pay their fair share of tax obscene.

Finally, remember that this is all under the backdrop of the financial crisis in 2009 (budget deficit of around £150bn) which left little/nothing to play with. Id be asking what previous governments were doing to address poverty when they didn’t have the repercussions of a financial crisis to contend with ?. Why were we running a deficit of between £30bn and £40bn pa in the 6 years (2002 - 2007) pre financial crisis and a and a surplus for a couple of years or so before that yet the poverty figures didn’t marketably change, even increasing some years ?)

clint van damme · Jul 24, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
Now I’m all for debate but why make sweeping unsupported comments to go alongside some accurate, fair points ?

Crime through the roof - factually incorrect, recorded crime has continued to fall. Violent crime has gone through the roof and needs addressing, with more police on the streets and also longer term plans around investment in poorer areas etc.

Homelessness through the roof - agreed. It shouldn’t happen at all.

Poverty - I agree that anyone being ‘in poverty’ in the UK is just wrong but the stats have barely changed. Bearing in mind the population has increased by £3.7m since 2010 and in that I’m not sure of the number of low paid migrants included in that figure but either way let’s just agree the figures haven’t significantly changed.

Poverty in the UK: a guide to the facts and figures

As mentioned previously, there has been a wage suppression for the lowest paid, which is finally improving and disposable income for the poorest will hopefully finally be increasing.

Wealth inequality - agreed. I also find those who earn millions or tens of millions and don’t pay their fair share of tax obscene.

Finally, remember that this is all under the backdrop of the financial crisis in 2009 (budget deficit of around £150bn) which left little/nothing to play with. Id be asking what previous governments were doing to address poverty when they didn’t have the repercussions of a financial crisis to contend with ?. Why were we running a deficit of between £30bn and £40bn pa in the 6 years (2002 - 2007) pre financial crisis and a and a surplus for a couple of years or so before that yet the poverty figures didn’t marketably change, even increasing some years ?)

You are correct re: crime but violent crime rises have been significant, 39% In parts of Essex according to a BBC report last week. That's horrendous.

As for poverty, the UN report released, I think, around just over a year ago is damning.

Grendel · Jul 24, 2019

clint van damme said:
You are correct re: crime but violent crime rises have been significant, 39% In parts of Essex according to a BBC report last week. That's horrendous.

As for poverty, the UN report released, I think, around just over a year ago is damning.

The UK is no worse than most Eu countries regarding poverty

fatso · Jul 24, 2019

clint van damme said:
If the debt needs serving why are we cutting taxes for the richest and cutting services for the vulnerable? I though we were all in this together as the slogan said?
I've never said I'm happy with things, if you read up I said there is still much to do.
As for crime, the current explosion in knife crime
Since the Tories came in in 2010, and this is just off the top of my head I'm sure there's more that could be added:

Crime through the roof
Homelessness through the roof
Use of food banks through the roof
A damning UN report on poverty in this country
Wealth inequality through the roof

But if you're happy with that fair enough.
But this country is failing and I doubt Boris is the man to turn it round.

fernandopartridge said:
What a load of drivel. The only thing I can say is at least you're consistent.

More people are in employment, yes, when people on zero hours contracts or on mandatory work placements are counted as employed it's bound to break records.

Home ownership is falling in the UK particularly amongst people under the age of 35, not that it is any good measure of anything other than indebtedness.

Cars and big TVs again are not a sign of wealth, they're a sign of masses of credit and the winners from that are the very rich.

How much of the national debt have the Tories 'serviced' since 2010? If all the austerity was really about paying it down.

No1, I will never defend zero hours contracts, they are just wrong.
To suggest that cars and tv ownership is just down to credit and the rich benefit is ridiculous.
Many buy without borrowing, and others on ifc,
or very low interest, many lenders will tell you the risk to profit currently is becoming unsustainable.
Home ownership is falling due to price inflation due to excess demand, ask yourself why the demand is so high, even when buy to let has become harder and fewer buy to let properties are being sold.
As for the national debt, under Tony Blair the uk debt as a percentage of GDP, spiralled from 38% in 2007 to 71% in 2010 (just 3 years!!!)
It continued to rise beyond 2010, but we have seen its first fall in 2018, with a further fall predicted in 2019. Due mainly to austerity,
We have also seen unprecedented levels of low interest rates, and the uk credit rating improve.

As for consistency, you too are consistent,
Consistently clueless.

fernandopartridge · Jul 24, 2019

fatso said:
No1, I will never defend zero hours contracts, they are just wrong.
To suggest that cars and tv ownership is just down to credit and the rich benefit is ridiculous.
Many buy without borrowing, and others on ifc,
or very low interest, many lenders will tell you the risk to profit currently is becoming unsustainable.
Home ownership is falling due to price inflation due to excess demand, ask yourself why the demand is so high, even when buy to let has become harder and fewer buy to let properties are being sold.
As for the national debt, under Tony Blair the uk debt as a percentage of GDP, spiralled from 38% in 2007 to 71% in 2010 (just 3 years!!!)
It continued to rise beyond 2010, but we have seen its first fall in 2018, with a further fall predicted in 2019. Due mainly to austerity,
We have also seen unprecedented levels of low interest rates, and the uk credit rating improve.

As for consistency, you too are consistent,
Consistently clueless.

Real wages in decline: How have wages changed over the past decade?

More bollocks from you about the Credit Rating - the Tories inherited a country with an AAA rating with all the major agencies, they have all declined under the Tories' watch.

Home ownership is falling due to price inflation due to excess demand, ask yourself why the demand is so high, even when buy to let has become harder and fewer buy to let properties are being sold.

Home ownership falls with an increase in demand, that's a funny old logic and at the same time as buy to let is in decline as well?

Buy to Let is harder due to some of the measures the Tories have brought in to make landlords declare earnings for income tax purposes, nothing to do with demand.

fatso · Jul 24, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
Real wages in decline: How have wages changed over the past decade?

More bollocks from you about the Credit Rating - the Tories inherited a country with an AAA rating with all the major agencies, they have all declined under the Tories' watch.

Home ownership falls with an increase in demand, that's a funny old logic and at the same time as buy to let is in decline as well?

Buy to Let is harder due to some of the measures the Tories have brought in to make landlords declare earnings for income tax purposes, nothing to do with demand.

House price inflation is due to demand.
The inflation makes it harder for first time buyers to get on the ladder. With fewer first time buyers the market will struggle to create chains.
Buy to let investors have also been put off due to changes in stamp duty for second properties.

CCFCSteve · Jul 24, 2019

clint van damme said:
You are correct re: crime but violent crime rises have been significant, 39% In parts of Essex according to a BBC report last week. That's horrendous.

As for poverty, the UN report released, I think, around just over a year ago is damning.

fernandopartridge said:
Real wages in decline: How have wages changed over the past decade?

More bollocks from you about the Credit Rating - the Tories inherited a country with an AAA rating with all the major agencies, they have all declined under the Tories' watch

Again, partially true but with a bias.

Tories maintained AAA rating for a majority of their time (even immediately after the financial crisis, which I am guessing was partly to do with the steps they took). It’s dropped post referendum result

Real wages have been in decline but the report attached indicates those on lowest paid have been rising fastest since 2014 and as I mentioned yesterday these I creased even further post referendum result. Most companies post financial crisis had to tighten their belts and minimised wage increases just to keep more people in work. The government also minimised public sector wage increases (which whilst obviously not well received, from memory Ireland immediately cut public sector pay by 5-7%, Greece obviously far more)

Real wages are finally increasing even under the backdrop of Brexit

Again, I’m not saying things are great but I’d always prefer to reflect a more balanced view

clint van damme · Jul 24, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
Again, partially true but with a bias.

Tories maintained AAA rating for a majority of their time (even immediately after the financial crisis, which I am guessing was partly to do with the steps they took). It’s dropped post referendum result

Real wages have been in decline but the report attached indicates those on lowest paid have been rising fastest since 2014 and as I mentioned yesterday these I creased even further post referendum result. Most companies post financial crisis had to tighten their belts and minimised wage increases just to keep more people in work. The government also minimised public sector wage increases (which whilst obviously not well received, from memory Ireland immediately cut public sector pay by 5-7%, Greece obviously far more)

Real wages are finally increasing even under the backdrop of Brexit

Again, I’m not saying things are great but I’d always prefer to reflect a more balanced view

But it is absolutely vulgar to be dishing out tax cuts for higher tax earners while there is on going austetity and suppression of public se tor wages even if you bieve those things to be justified.
Especially when you've ran an election campaign with the slogan we're all in it together.
Especially when you've awarded yourself and your fellow MPs a substantial pay rises.
That's not how you run a country for the good of everyone like you're supposed to when you're elected to serve the people.

Sick Boy · Jul 24, 2019

His cabinet appointments are hilarious

skybluetony176 · Jul 24, 2019

Sick Boy said:
His cabinet appointments are hilarious

Got rid of Fox but brought Raab back in.

CCFCSteve · Jul 24, 2019

clint van damme said:
But it is absolutely vulgar to be dishing out tax cuts for higher tax earners while there is on going austetity and suppression of public se tor wages even if you bieve those things to be justified.
Especially when you've ran an election campaign with the slogan we're all in it together.
Especially when you've awarded yourself and your fellow MPs a substantial pay rises.
That's not how you run a country for the good of everyone like you're supposed to when you're elected to serve the people.

When were tax cuts for the rich dished out ?
(Not me being awkward but I wasn’t aware there had been any recently). If Boris goes ahead with his suggested cuts for higher earners (I wouldn’t say £50k-80k is necessarily rich, especially if they live in London) as a priority then I’d be disappointed. I agree there’s better places for money to be spent/utilised

Also, I’m not a fan of MPs of any political persuasion so you won’t hear me arguing. Most appear self serving idiots these days. I think pay rises are decided by an independent committee though

CCFCSteve · Jul 24, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Got rid of Fox but brought Raab back in.

Graylings gone which has got to be good for the country !

clint van damme · Jul 25, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
When were tax cuts for the rich dished out ?
(Not me being awkward but I wasn’t aware there had been any recently). If Boris goes ahead with his suggested cuts for higher earners (I wouldn’t say £50k-80k is necessarily rich, especially if they live in London) as a priority then I’d be disappointed. I agree there’s better places for money to be spent/utilised

Also, I’m not a fan of MPs of any political persuasion so you won’t hear me arguing. Most appear self serving idiots these days. I think pay rises are decided by an independent committee though

They raised the threshold for earnings over 40 grand, Ok, you don't class it as rich but it's still a piss take. (Can't remember exactly when this occurred but during austerity). I
I personally benefited from it but the money could have been better used elsewhere.

Mps pay rises are recommended by an independent committee but Mps award the rise to themselves.
The same independent committee recommended a pay rise for firemen but Mps refused to sanction it. So again, makes a nonsense of the All in it together bollocks.

clint van damme · Jul 25, 2019

Sick Boy said:
His cabinet appointments are hilarious

In years gone by would Patel and Williamson have been brought back in to cabinet given they both got sacked for fairly serious wrong doing?

Sky_Blue_Daz · Jul 25, 2019

Did anyone see David Mellor on sky yesterday ? He looked like Austin powers
Google Image Result for https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/07/24/23/16463904-7282963-Former_Tory_minister_David_Mellor_wore_a_white_collarless_shirt_-a-61_1564007433100.jpg

clint van damme · Jul 25, 2019

Sky_Blue_Daz said:
Did anyone see David Mellor on sky yesterday ? He looked like Austin powers
Google Image Result for https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/07/24/23/16463904-7282963-Former_Tory_minister_David_Mellor_wore_a_white_collarless_shirt_-a-61_1564007433100.jpg

he looked like he'd scalped Michael Fabricant and was wearing his hair.

Sky_Blue_Daz · Jul 25, 2019

some people just need to embrace a crew cut or shave it off completely. I’ve had to it’s the new age combover

Ian1779 · Jul 25, 2019

fatso said:
I think you'll find it was Labour who found money to "blow shit up"
As for blaming "the fucking imigrants" line, I think you'll find that fears around uncontrolled numbers, and our inability to have authority over our own borders are 1 of the major reasons (but not the only reason) we had the referendum result in the first place,
Blaming the Daily Mail is fucking hilarious, and is the naive politics of students and social media.

As normal from left wing supporters, I've yet to hear of any credible alternative policies, or how they plan to fund them.

Firstly - I think you’d struggle to find a single person on this forum that thinks Blair isn’t a war criminal... saying Labour did it first doesn’t make it OK does it?

Uncontrolled immigration as you call it is a failing of the government (Labour and Tory) - not a failing of those that are moving, yet that’s not the narrative played out. They failed to put in place proper measures to track and account for movement of people. On a slightly different tack... it also makes me angry the way ‘immigrant’ is chucked around. People that arrive in this country may be refugees, people claiming asylum for persecution, economic migrants that we have invited into our country to fill gaps in the workforce... not just ‘immigrants’

We did some work at school earlier in the year on this - turns out that 97% of kids think the only difference between ‘migrant’ and ‘immigrant’ is that the former is legal, and the latter is illegal. Now where might they have got that from?? Is that replicated across the country?

Taking the Farage line of grouping them altogether is wrong and massively inaccurate.

There are plenty of credible ‘left-wing’ policies out there. They have been costed, they have clear rationale. But you are not interested... because it’s far easier to dismiss it as ‘naive student politics’ because that’s what you’ve been fed.

I’ll never forget watching question time during GE2017 and seeing a group of angry middle-aged men going apoplectic because Corbyn was slightly hesitant on the notion of nuking millions of people.... yet the left are the extreme ones.

clint van damme · Jul 25, 2019

sounds like boris is going on a spending spree, hasn't said where he's getting the money from? Maybe he found the legendary magic money tree and given it a shake!

shmmeee · Jul 25, 2019

Ian1779 said:
Firstly - I think you’d struggle to find a single person on this forum that thinks Blair isn’t a war criminal... saying Labour did it first doesn’t make it OK does it?

Uncontrolled immigration as you call it is a failing of the government (Labour and Tory) - not a failing of those that are moving, yet that’s not the narrative played out. They failed to put in place proper measures to track and account for movement of people. On a slightly different tack... it also makes me angry the way ‘immigrant’ is chucked around. People that arrive in this country may be refugees, people claiming asylum for persecution, economic migrants that we have invited into our country to fill gaps in the workforce... not just ‘immigrants’

We did some work at school earlier in the year on this - turns out that 97% of kids think the only difference between ‘migrant’ and ‘immigrant’ is that the former is legal, and the latter is illegal. Now where might they have got that from?? Is that replicated across the country?

Taking the Farage line of grouping them altogether is wrong and massively inaccurate.

There are plenty of credible ‘left-wing’ policies out there. They have been costed, they have clear rationale. But you are not interested... because it’s far easier to dismiss it as ‘naive student politics’ because that’s what you’ve been fed.

I’ll never forget watching question time during GE2017 and seeing a group of angry middle-aged men going apoplectic because Corbyn was slightly hesitant on the notion of nuking millions of people.... yet the left are the extreme ones.

Don’t forget the endless stream of gammon on QT getting red faced about how macroeconomics is just like a household budget/credit card.

shmmeee · Jul 25, 2019

clint van damme said:
sounds like boris is going on a spending spree, hasn't said where he's getting the money from? Maybe he found the legendary magic money tree and given it a shake!

Won’t criticise here, he’s planning for tank the economy to keep the mob happy and it’ll need stimulus. Not sure giving rich people more to put in their ISA will do that but it’s a start.

clint van damme · Jul 25, 2019

shmmeee said:
Won’t criticise here, he’s planning for tank the economy to keep the mob happy and it’ll need stimulus. Not sure giving rich people more to put in their ISA will do that but it’s a start.

If he does half of what he said there's good times ahead and I'll take my hat of to him.
It's all bluster of course but even if he does a quarter of it it just proves my point that austerity is a political ideology because he's got to be getting money from somewhere to fund it but he didn't explain where it was coming from.

Grendel · Jul 25, 2019

clint van damme said:
If he does half of what he said there's good times ahead and I'll take my hat of to him.
It's all bluster of course but even if he does a quarter of it it just proves my point that austerity is a political ideology because he's got to be getting money from somewhere to fund it but he didn't explain where it was coming from.

Johnson is more liberal than many liberals. He has no real Tory interest - he will be very keen to reward all members of society and become the great all embracing leader

The mistake people make is they think Johnson is stupid. Versus the empty headed blood stained Blair creature he is s genius

Ian1779 · Jul 25, 2019

clint van damme said:
If he does half of what he said there's good times ahead and I'll take my hat of to him.
It's all bluster of course but even if he does a quarter of it it just proves my point that austerity is a political ideology because he's got to be getting money from somewhere to fund it but he didn't explain where it was coming from.

You can guarantee as well he won’t get a single shred of scrutiny on where it’s coming from.

clint van damme · Jul 25, 2019

Ian1779 said:
You can guarantee as well he won’t get a single shred of scrutiny on where it’s coming from.

well he's already got his slogan ready to shout down anyone who questions him - think positive!

skybluetony176 · Jul 25, 2019

Grendel said:
Johnson is more liberal than many liberals. He has no real Tory interest - he will be very keen to reward all members of society and become the great all embracing leader

The mistake people make is they think Johnson is stupid. Versus the empty headed blood stained Blair creature he is s genius

Do yourself a favour. Don’t go out your way to hear what anyone who’s worked with him in government has to say about him. With expectations that high of him you’ve already set yourself up to be disappointed.

Grendel · Jul 25, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Do yourself a favour. Don’t go out your way to hear what anyone who’s worked with him in government has to say about him. With expectations that high of him you’ve already set yourself up to be disappointed.

My expectations are very low that’s why he will do what I’ve suggested

fatso · Jul 25, 2019

clint van damme said:
sounds like boris is going on a spending spree, hasn't said where he's getting the money from? Maybe he found the legendary magic money tree and given it a shake!

Yes, it's certainly going to be interesting to see where the money comes from and how he plans to give tax cuts to high rate tax payers at the same time, he plans to save 39 million on the divorce settlement, but that's not going to go far.
It sounds like he's trying to convince all sides that he's the man we've been waiting for, but we will take a lot more than idle rhetoric.

skybluetony176 · Jul 25, 2019

Grendel said:
My expectations are very low that’s why he will do what I’ve suggested

They’re not low enough according to the majority of people who have spoken out about their experience of working with him in office.

Evo1883 · Jul 25, 2019

shmmeee said:
Don’t forget the endless stream of gammon on QT getting red faced about how macroeconomics is just like a household budget/credit card.

Come on shmmeee

Gammon is a word reserved for outcast left wing self hating activists on a university campus, not a grown adult with actual life experience.
You're better than that

SkyblueBazza · Jul 25, 2019

Sick Boy said:
His cabinet appointments are hilarious

You say it as if there was EVER likely to be any other response from you (though you aren't alone in that)

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clint van damme · Jul 25, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
You say it as if there was EVER likely to be any other response from you (though you aren't alone in that)

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do you think Patel and Wiliamson should have been brought back into the cabinet given their previous? I think a lot of people will find it funny that they were.
Interestingly Williamson was given the only cabinet position that doesn't need security clearance.

SkyblueBazza · Jul 25, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Got rid of Fox but brought Raab back in.

Given his expenses overclaim in 2009, allowing lobbyists to join official overseas trips & allegedly to access MOD files, reports he excuse climate change denials & his firm backing of Jeremy Hunt - that cannot be a surprise can it? Untrustworthy & nailed his colours to a different mast.

Raab same mast as Boris & has been involved in Brexit intricacies. All makes perfect sense to me.

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SkyblueBazza · Jul 25, 2019

clint van damme said:
well he's already got his slogan ready to shout down anyone who questions him - think positive!

Which is wasted on a significant number of you folks. You're neg-'eds on almost everything

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SkyblueBazza · Jul 25, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
They’re not low enough according to the majority of people who have spoken out about their experience of working with him in office.

People who do anything other than maintain the status quo are usually labelled as a twat (if they get things done) or a lazy twat (if they do nothing)

I at least am prepared to wait & see.

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What is going on with the Tory leadership contest? (15 Viewers)

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