clint van damme
Well-Known Member
First appointment Mark Spencer, I think that clears that one up.
What is going on with the Tory leadership contest? (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter skybluetony176
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First appointment Mark Spencer, I think that clears that one up.
fatso
Well-Known Member
I doubt that they’ve forgotten anybody, but the people who are at the bottom of the ladder are there regardless of who is in power, If labour had the answer they would be permanently in office. To think that any party can please all the people all of the time is ridiculous, there will always be people who are dissatisfied with their lot.
Everyone wants more money for education, health care, policing, etc etc,
But how many would be prepared to pay more tax as a result? The loony left want to tax the wealthy more, which is fine in principle, until the wealthy run off to the nearest tax haven and take their money and assets with them.
Office is a thankless task, it’s easy for people to moan, or get abusive, but there are precious few feasible alternatives put forward, and even fewer people prepared to stand up and make a difference.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Maybe the same reason thst a blundering, buffoon that has little grasp on the minutiae was put in charge of the Tory party.
I think it is called charisma that appeals. Farage obviously has it too. Since Maggie there has been a procession of diplomatic safe-hands at the helm of both parties. Now we have fun & energetic on the one hand, idealogical straight-man trying to be more politically acceptable than his real belief are...& it shows. One just wants power & the Tories out, the other has sold a clear remit that fits with the democratic outcome of the referendum.
It is going to be interesting to see how he reconciles the Muslim community, to link but one of his 'oops...I shouldn't have said that's moments, in his quest to unite the country.
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clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Absolute nonsense.
The capitalist Tory party gave the working man just enough to keep them happy, the neo liberal Tory party doesn't.
The people at the bottom are now people who work two jobs, live hand to mouth and use food banks, not the down and outs we used to associate with the "bottom of the ladder".
We now subsidise working people with benefit top ups so the corporation's can pay poverty wages, that's benefit fraud for you.
The 'trickle down effect' Doesn't work so let the rich run off to their tax havens, fuck 'em.
There are alternatives, and the neo liberal and their mates in the media are fucking terrified the electorate wake up and realise that.
fatso
Well-Known Member
Tell us then, what exactly ARE the alternatives, please enlighten us, open our eyes, fuck knows were ready for it!
And also please tell us how your magical plan will be financed, and who exactly is going to pay for it!
W
westcountry_skyblue
Guest
Would this country benefit from a socialist government? When did we last have one?
I just couldn’t vote for the labour front bench looking at them they need a clear out tbh.
My view is that socialism doesn’t work especially in today’s world,It’s the politics of envy.
I just couldn’t vote for the labour front bench looking at them they need a clear out tbh.
My view is that socialism doesn’t work especially in today’s world,It’s the politics of envy.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
There is already enough money in this country to.pay for it, this country is awash with money, austerity isn't an economic policy it's a political ideology.
For a start, make corporation's pay their way, if they don't want to they can stop operating in this country and fuck off.
Terminally ill disabled people are having their benefits withdrawn, that is a by product if austerity, are you happy with that?
Crime is rocketing and police numbers have been slashed, are you happy with that?
I could go on. Time for change.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Politics of envy is a silly slogan trotted out by cap dodging forelock tugging fuck wits who don't realise they're about to get fucked over.
fatso
Well-Known Member
The country is awash with money??? Really?
The reality is we are still in debt from the last labour government! (Along with the banking crisis)
This chancellor has had the responsibility of bringing that debt level down.
Hence austerity! It’s not a ideology but a financial necessity.
As for making corporations pay their way, that’s great in principle until they do fuck off and take jobs with them, then we loose what tax they were paying AND have to support the growing number of unemployed. Fucking great plan that!
As for crime rising, if we weren’t filling hotel rooms and bed and breakfast establishments with illegal immigrants all housed at the tax payers expense then maybe we could spend more money on public services or health care.
And don’t get me started on the 9 BILLION pounds we hand to the EU every fucking year!!!
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Trouble it's someone else's money not ours!
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NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
tbf you weren't exactly carrying me along, but bollocks like this lost me completely.
fatso
Well-Known Member
Well please tell me who YOU think is picking the tab up?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
This country is awash with money, the rich have got richer all through austerity, how has that happened if the country isn't awash with money?
Austerity is a political ideaology, you keep telling yourself otherwise.
And yes, tell corporation's to fuck off and stop them operating in this country, you think they'd turn their noses up at the profit they make? Would they fuck, and if they did someone else would be happy to offer they services they do.
As for the growing number of unemployed, you Tories are always banging on about how low unemployment is so make your mind up.
Don't you agree that benefits that toppling up wages is subsidising huge corporation's so they don't have to pay proper wages?
You didn't answer my question re: denying unemployed people benefits?
And are you saying that slashing police numbers had no correlation to the rise in crime?
If so, didn't realise Theresa May had a forum log in.
fatso
Well-Known Member
Ffs don’t confuse people with facts!!!Trouble it's someone else's money not ours!
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Didn’t you hear, the country is awash with money!
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Trouble it's someone else's money not ours!
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Yet the rich are getting richer and we're subsidising working people's benefits with top ups.
Even you should be able to work out what's going on.
fatso
Well-Known Member
You tories??? I love it when you assume I must be a Tory just because I happen to take the time to point out the total folly of your arguments.
For the record I have voted for all the parties at some point in time, and have no political allegiance at all.
Ref your points, my own employer (blue chip ft100 company making profits)
Is currently and systematically down sizing it’s uk facilities and workforce, so yes, they do fuck off even when making money. They are moving to take advantage of better tax arrangements.
Denying any just claimant their benefits is reprehensible, I wouldn’t defend that,
As I don’t agree with it, But I would point out that many people also claim benefits they arnt entitled to, which is also inexcusable and drains the funds available to all.
Crime rises when police numbers fall purely because people are cunts, I don’t need a copper at the end of every street to stop me mugging or stabbing someone, do you?
Boris has pledged to increase the number of police on the streets, but he hasn’t said how were going to fund them, I’m waiting to hear that one!
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I agree about benefit fraud but it costs the country around 1.2 billion a year, unclaimed benefits is around a billion a year, so a totally fair benefit system would give us a net gain of 200 million a year so in reality, a very minor issue.
Yes, people are cunts, which is why they need policing. Look on YouTube for Mays exchange with that Manchester copper, see her appallingly dismissive attitude and think about what happened in Manchester at the Ariana Grande concert, the British public deserve better, I have no faith in Boris to give us what we deserve.
Yes, people are cunts, which is why they need policing. Look on YouTube for Mays exchange with that Manchester copper, see her appallingly dismissive attitude and think about what happened in Manchester at the Ariana Grande concert, the British public deserve better, I have no faith in Boris to give us what we deserve.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Yes - the same thing that goes on in every country on the planet & has done in various forms for 000s of yrs. Revolution slows it down for a while, but it never ends no matter who is in power
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Ian1779
Well-Known Member
With respect that is horse shit. Austerity was never a necessity but a political choice. We still paid banker bonuses, the richest 1%/5% still got immeasurably richer... and the most vulnerable footed the bill. The Tories since 2010 have borrowed more than Labour did, and they still haven’t fixed it.... but there is always money to blow some shit up isn’t there.
This empty threat of corporations ‘fucking off’ - you think Starbucks or Amazon are going to cease operations in the UK because McDonnell wants more tax from them?? It’s absolute bollocks mate.
Nice to see you’ve gone with the ‘blame the fucking immigrants’ line - Daily Mail propaganda at its finest.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
So that’s OK then obviously....
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Well what most people do is fight the battles they can win. Obviously it is un-winnable without armed revolution (& probably even then)...maybe you'd like to drum up support for that one. They aren't as stupid as you try to make them out to be. The always give just enough to keep the majority in a placid state of mind.
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Ian1779
Well-Known Member
I don’t believe there is any stupidity.. there is cold calculation mixed in with some ineptness.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
They aren't giving enough to keep people in a placid state though.
That was capitalism, this is neoliberalism they want the whole pie.
dancers lance
Well-Known Member
"but there is always money to blow some shit up isn’t there" obviously not as much as the last Labour government had, they just couldn't stop blowing shit up.
Not entirely accurate Ian. I agree the richest are getting richer and I believe they should pay more tax. However, as has already been said there’s a tipping point when it comes to tax (both individual and corporate). Borrowing has increased but level of borrowing year on year has been reducing. You say austerity was a political choice but how do you bring borrowing down without addressing expenditure, it can’t all come in tax increases (not at the level borrowing was post financial crisis). Has austerity gone on for too long, yes probably, has it happened in the wrong areas, yes, some, but it was needed.
Clint - I don’t like the thought of government having to subsidise lower wages but we’ve done that for years in various ways. Would I rather subsidise part of someone’s living costs but encourage companies to employ more staff, or pay someone benefits and have them sat at home ? Hopefully the continued increase in minimum and living wages will address this over time but remember most companies arent massive corporations they’re owner managed companies that can’t just pay significantly higher wages overnight.
The abuse by large corporations is wrong, however, it’s not just a case of saying ‘well fuck off then’, they’ll move HQs/operations abroad ie where corporation tax is lower (Ireland has been attracting them for years CT at 12.5%). To address this is not straight forward and needs international co-ordination to ensure large corporations pay their share in the country they operate/generate profits. That’s not in place so it’s a fine balance.
What’s interesting is the talk about subsidising/lower wages, yet from those supportive of the EU and freedom of movement, which has no doubt suppressed wages for the lowest paid. I recently read an article by Deutsche Bank brexit research team that indicated since the second half of 2016 wages for both the lowest 10 and 25% have risen at their fastest rates in 15 years which I presume is partly to do with less low paid EU nationals being available (reduced supply) and also the increases in minimum/living wage.
Also I saw online when I was just checking living wage rates that the percentage of employees in the lowest paid jobs has reduced to 17% in 2018, which is the lowest level since 1980. There has also been more people in work than ever before and a significant increase of the personal allowance rate in the last ten years (basically doubled - up £6k to £12.5k, previous ten years it went up £2k to £6.5k) so there’s been some positive stuff as well.
I appreciate things are far from perfect and if there have been benefit cuts from those that need it most (ie disability), it’s wrong, however, this ‘evil right’ and ‘caring left’ is never as black and white as some portray.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The polls really don’t back this thought up TBF.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Keynesian Economics Definition
Austerity is useful outside a recession. Cutting govt spending cuts private income which has a ripple effect.
The economy was on its way up in 2010, Osbourne tanked it again by cutting off funds.
If you want more money to come back to the government you raise taxes, that’s what they’re there for: to take money out of the economy to lower inflation.
It’s a fact that Labour governments using Keynesian economics run fewer, smaller deficits and pay back more debt.
fatso
Well-Known Member
Great response, although I fear your wasting your time, the looneys on the left will always insist we are awash with money, and all they need to do is shake the mythical money tree and all our problems will be solved!
The poor in society are only poor due to being targeted by the evil tories who have a vested interest in keeping them down, while helping the rich to get even richer!
The fact that more people are in employment than ever before, and more people own their own homes, cars, big TV's etc or have foreign holidays etc is conveniently overlooked.
Try telling people that we are 1.8 trillion pounds in debt, and that the debt needs to be serviced somehow, and they don't want to hear it! Just keep shaking that money tree!
Things are far from perfect, but many people around the world would still rather be in the UK than anywhere else.
Surely it's time to get behind Boris, whatever personal opinion you have of him, and give him time to do the job he's been given.
fatso
Well-Known Member
I think you'll find it was Labour who found money to "blow shit up"
As for blaming "the fucking imigrants" line, I think you'll find that fears around uncontrolled numbers, and our inability to have authority over our own borders are 1 of the major reasons (but not the only reason) we had the referendum result in the first place,
Blaming the Daily Mail is fucking hilarious, and is the naive politics of students and social media.
As normal from left wing supporters, I've yet to hear of any credible alternative policies, or how they plan to fund them.
As I said, it’s not that straight forward shmmeee
You could say that labour runs smaller deficits and pays back more debt as its operated/been in power at a different stage of the economic cycle ie was in a better position to do so.
You might be able to borrow/spend your way out of shallow recessions....if the monies are spent in the correct areas (infrastructure etc). It’s doesnt need me to point out the size of the the borrowing/deficit around the time of the financials crisis (or the crass comment by Liam Byrne that ‘there’s no money left’ when leaving office). That’s not to mention the spending commitments that would have already been made (some of them correctly to minimise the impact of 2008/9)
The labour government inherited a sound economy in 1995 and did a lot of good things but also then wasted great opportunities to put us on a sounder footing.
Do you think Thatcher would say she inherited a great economy when she came into power on 1979 ?
I’m not saying the Right is always correct and the Lefts ideology is wrong, far from it, I wouldn’t have voted labour in the past if I’d thought that, but I’m also not naive enough to think a certain brand of politics works best for the majority in every scenario, whoever’s in charge, whatever their policies are.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
That’s only fair. After all we did have a sacrificial lamb here for him. I think her name was Theresa.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
If the debt needs serving why are we cutting taxes for the richest and cutting services for the vulnerable? I though we were all in this together as the slogan said?
Since the Tories came in in 2010, and this is just off the top of my head I'm sure there's more that could be added:
Crime through the roof
Homelessness through the roof
Use of food banks through the roof
A damning UN report on poverty in this country
Wealth inequality through the roof
But if you're happy with that fair enough.
But this country is failing and I doubt Boris is the man to turn it round.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
What a load of drivel. The only thing I can say is at least you're consistent.
More people are in employment, yes, when people on zero hours contracts or on mandatory work placements are counted as employed it's bound to break records.
Home ownership is falling in the UK particularly amongst people under the age of 35, not that it is any good measure of anything other than indebtedness.
Cars and big TVs again are not a sign of wealth, they're a sign of masses of credit and the winners from that are the very rich.
How much of the national debt have the Tories 'serviced' since 2010? If all the austerity was really about paying it down.
