What is going on with the Tory leadership contest? (2 Viewers)

[CCFCSteve]

In net terms it was not an increase, under his reign as SoS for Health the NHS was underfunded against what it needed to keep up with growth in demand. The late cash injection was too little too late. The ridiculous notion of providing a 7 day service whilst under funding something shows that he's either a complete buffoon or disingenuous or both.

In his defence, he didn't bring in the reforms which enforced competition in the NHS (and privatisation / contracting out services), it was Andrew Lansley.

Im no big Hunt fan but he had to deal with the budget he was given to some extent (the actual deal for junior doctors was better than what they were on previously but it needed weekend flexibility). The NHS, whilst a fantastic service that none of us would want to lose is a total money pit. The Tories chuck as much in the black hole as Labour would yet they will always lose the perception battle.

There needs to be long term cross party agreement/planning (as with social care) but they would both rather play politics with it. It’s wrong !

Ps have a read of Black Box Thinking for an interesting view on the medical profession and what could/should change.

 

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[CCFCSteve]

He’s literally written the book on destroying the NHS. It’s his stated aim. Direct Democracy: An Agenda for a New Model Party

I’ve got to be honest, I’ve never seen/read the book. I was just saying I didn’t think he tried to destroy the NHS whilst Health Secretary.

 

[Grendel]

I’ve got to be honest, I’ve never seen/read the book. I was just saying I didn’t think he tried to destroy the NHS whilst Health Secretary.

He didn’t it’s hyperbole in the extreme - the NHS has to be modified and any ideas that are not from the concept of state, state, state creates mass hysteria

 

[fernandopartridge]

He didn’t it’s hyperbole in the extreme - the NHS has to be modified and any ideas that are not from the concept of state, state, state creates mass hysteria

The NHS is trying to modernise itself but change costs money to implement and there isn't much of it about.

 

[CCFCSteve]

The NHS is trying to modernise itself but change costs money to implement and there isn't much of it about.

£125bn last year !!! As I said earlier it’s a money pit and we (the public) are to partly to blame.....poor/unhealthy lifestyles, misuse of services etc etc. In addition to this we are living longer so need more NHS care/services. There needs to be some major changes though as it’s creaking ! Unfortunately tough decisions are unpopular so neither party will want to make them so I guess we’ll just keep chucking more money at it.

Ps and even though we’re spending all that cash we’re still not paying nurses what they deserve ! Its crazy !

 

[clint van damme]

£125bn last year !!! As I said earlier it’s a money pit and we (the public) are to partly to blame.....poor/unhealthy lifestyles, misuse of services etc etc. In addition to this we are living longer so need more NHS care/services. There needs to be some major changes though as it’s creaking ! Unfortunately tough decisions are unpopular so neither party will want to make them so I guess we’ll just keep chucking more money at it.

Ps and even though we’re spending all that cash we’re still not paying nurses what they deserve ! Its crazy !

it depends how you define money pit.
I wouldn't define it as something you keep throwing money in to without any benefit in return.
I wouldn't describe an institution that provides free health care to the population in order to keep them healthy, working and paying taxes as a money pit. And I would say free health care should be provided by any civilised country.

 

[Sick Boy]

it depends how you define money pit.
I wouldn't define it as something you keep throwing money in to without any benefit in return.
I wouldn't describe an institution that provides free health care to the population in order to keep them healthy, working and paying taxes as a money pit. And I would say free health care should be provided by any civilised country.

As someone else has said the health of the nation overall is pretty shocking compared to other European countries, yet someone the NHS takes the blame for that as well.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I would define something that way when it appears that however much you throw in it, it always needs more.

I agree that every civilised country needs free health care and the US system is an absolute disgrace, however, that doesn’t mean we don’t need to try to change and improve what we’ve got, and fast !.

For example, I can’t believe that people still don’t have to pay for doctor appointments they don’t bother cancelling (that’s someone else’s appointment !!) and there are still foreign health care tourists (BMA were indicating earlier this week that it’s racist to charge ‘foreigners’ - no it’s not, if I don’t have adequate travel insurance in a foreign country I expect to pay). There are also plenty of the public who don’t take personal responsibility for their own health which then become a far greater burden on the system (where do you draw the line with ‘free’ care for all - appreciate this isn’t an easy one !). It’s bogged down with bureaucracy/middle management who can’t/don’t make decisions so the NHS has to pay numerous Big Four consultants to drive through change....who then struggle themselves because the lack of ability/will within the NHS to deliver this (I know several consultants who have been in over the years)

We all appreciate the great work doctors and nurses do. This is no criticism of them in relation to their day to day work, just the mismanagement internally (higher levels of the profession) and governments of all political persuasions to address these issues and those that then become a wider burden on the NHS (mental health, social care etc).

The NHS is sacred/beyond criticism line just makes matters worse, as is trying to politicise it. It should be beyond this, which is why I suggested it needs longer term cross party planning. What people who don’t accept change don’t appear to grasp/appreciate is that by not changing/improving, there isn’t sufficient money for as high a standard of critical care (for those that need it most), there is less money for higher nurses wages and less money for other public services (teaching, policing etc).

As I said yesterday, if you want an indication of the underlying culture in the medical profession with regards to change read Black Box Thinking. Probably a little out of date now but sure the issues remain. Rant over !

 

[clint van damme]

I would define something that way when it appears that however much you throw in it, it always needs more.

I agree that every civilised country needs free health care and the US system is an absolute disgrace, however, that doesn’t mean we don’t need to try to change and improve what we’ve got, and fast !.

For example, I can’t believe that people still don’t have to pay for doctor appointments they don’t bother cancelling (that’s someone else’s appointment !!) and there are still foreign health care tourists (BMA were indicating earlier this week that it’s racist to charge ‘foreigners’ - no it’s not, if I don’t have adequate travel insurance in a foreign country I expect to pay). There are also plenty of the public who don’t take personal responsibility for their own health which then become a far greater burden on the system (where do you draw the line with ‘free’ care for all - appreciate this isn’t an easy one !). It’s bogged down with bureaucracy/middle management who can’t/don’t make decisions so the NHS has to pay numerous Big Four consultants to drive through change....who then struggle themselves because the lack of ability/will within the NHS to deliver this (I know several consultants who have been in over the years)

We all appreciate the great work doctors and nurses do. This is no criticism of them in relation to their day to day work, just the mismanagement internally (higher levels of the profession) and governments of all political persuasions to address these issues and those that then become a wider burden on the NHS (mental health, social care etc).

The NHS is sacred/beyond criticism line just makes matters worse, as is trying to politicise it. It should be beyond this, which is why I suggested it needs longer term cross party planning. What people who don’t accept change don’t appear to grasp/appreciate is that by not changing/improving, there isn’t sufficient money for as high a standard of critical care (for those that need it most), there is less money for higher nurses wages and less money for other public services (teaching, policing etc).

As I said yesterday, if you want an indication of the underlying culture in the medical profession with regards to change read Black Box Thinking. Probably a little out of date now but sure the issues remain. Rant over !

It's not the NHS should be sacred from criticism line, it's not the NHS should be sacred from reform line, it's the NHS should be sacred from privatisation line.

It's something like 1 in 6 deaths in America contributable to people not being able to afford health care and 62% of bankruptcies involve not being able to pay medical bills.
I can't understand why anyone would want to go down that route.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

I often think 'mismanagement' is used as an excuse to impose ideological, rather than necessary changes.

Same as 'efficiency savings'

 

[Ian1779]

People think the NHS is sacred because of the fact that it should really be a basic human right in a modern and civilised country, but I think most understand that it needs to look at the processes involved in running it from their own experiences using it.

I know its a very small example, but hospitals will pay in excess of £50 for a bottle of Calpol - which you can buy at Tesco for £3. That wastage of money is down to bureaucracy and archaic processes that need to be looked at. I can only imagine that can happen for something that small - imagine what that looks like on a bigger/national scale.

It is very similar in the education sector, so much money is wasted at director/consultant level, whether it is part of an academy trust, local authority or at the Department of Education. Also purchasing is another massive inefficiency. All of which means less money for kids in the classroom, and probably more importantly the social care aspect of education.

Privatisation doesn't fix these problems.

 

[shmmeee]

£125bn last year !!! As I said earlier it’s a money pit and we (the public) are to partly to blame.....poor/unhealthy lifestyles, misuse of services etc etc. In addition to this we are living longer so need more NHS care/services. There needs to be some major changes though as it’s creaking ! Unfortunately tough decisions are unpopular so neither party will want to make them so I guess we’ll just keep chucking more money at it.

Ps and even though we’re spending all that cash we’re still not paying nurses what they deserve ! Its crazy !

One of the most cost efficient health services around. “Money pit”

Pick one.

 

[fernandopartridge]

£125bn last year !!! As I said earlier it’s a money pit and we (the public) are to partly to blame.....poor/unhealthy lifestyles, misuse of services etc etc. In addition to this we are living longer so need more NHS care/services. There needs to be some major changes though as it’s creaking ! Unfortunately tough decisions are unpopular so neither party will want to make them so I guess we’ll just keep chucking more money at it.

Ps and even though we’re spending all that cash we’re still not paying nurses what they deserve ! Its crazy !

You're falling into the latest Tory narrative about poor / unhealthy lifestyles, this is what they want everybody to believe. By far and away the greatest demand on the health service comes from the elderly and it is mostly unavoidable, people living healthier lifestyles of course would be helpful but isn't the goose that lays the golden eggs.

What are the major changes that need to be made in your view? (I'm not saying there don't need to be any just wondered what you think they are).....

 

[fatso]

If people live healthy lifestyles they tend (in general at least) to live longer.
When people live longer they tend to require more health care while at the same time no longer contributing financially to the system.
So the argument that we are unfit doesn't actually work.
Take smoking for example, the treasury used to take in far more money through taxing tobacco, than the NHS spent in care and medication for smokers, bizarre but a fact.
I'd love to know if it's the same for alcohol tax and the treatment of those who abuse it.

 

[CCFCSteve]

You're falling into the latest Tory narrative about poor / unhealthy lifestyles, this is what they want everybody to believe. By far and away the greatest demand on the health service comes from the elderly and it is mostly unavoidable, people living healthier lifestyles of course would be helpful but isn't the goose that lays the golden eggs.

What are the major changes that need to be made in your view? (I'm not saying there don't need to be any just wondered what you think they are).....

I named a few off the top of my head earlier ie clamping down on unattended appointments (15 million appointments according to NHS), allowing/not recovering foreign tourism costs (again estimated at several hundreds of million per annum). In addition there are numerous negligence claims against hospitals for errors when the culture has been not to properly record these errors and learn from mistakes (hence my reference to the book black box thinking). Historically there was significant waste by not having centralised purchasing across the Trusts (I presume this is still the case). By all accounts there is a load of middle management who cannot do their jobs (hence my earlier comments about the need to then pay millions to external accountants/professionals to come in to make the improvements/changes). All of the above add up to huge sums.

Poor health is a major issue. It’s not made up or a Tory narrative. Check the NHS data. Over 60% of adults overweight or obese ?! (30% obese and morbidly obese increasing from 1% to 4% over the last 25 years). What kind of strain does that put on the health service ?

Yet because it’s there and will deal with every ailment, for free, people will just abuse the system. It’s wrong !

Ps I do agree that the ageing population is putting a massive strain on the NHS and will continue to do so. I have said on other threads in the past, it’s a massive ticking timebomb that is being politicised rather than cross party solutions being found ! Unfortunately I wouldn’t rely on our politicians to behave like grown ups and address major issues like this constructively. Not when there can be political point scoring to be done !

 

[CCFCSteve]

People think the NHS is sacred because of the fact that it should really be a basic human right in a modern and civilised country, but I think most understand that it needs to look at the processes involved in running it from their own experiences using it.

I know its a very small example, but hospitals will pay in excess of £50 for a bottle of Calpol - which you can buy at Tesco for £3. That wastage of money is down to bureaucracy and archaic processes that need to be looked at. I can only imagine that can happen for something that small - imagine what that looks like on a bigger/national scale.

It is very similar in the education sector, so much money is wasted at director/consultant level, whether it is part of an academy trust, local authority or at the Department of Education. Also purchasing is another massive inefficiency. All of which means less money for kids in the classroom, and probably more importantly the social care aspect of education.

Privatisation doesn't fix these problems.

I agree 100% with the sentiment Ian but why is this money being wasted ??? Is there less accountability in the public sector ?

Let’s just say there was a private sector firm employed to undertake all of the purchasing, to get the best deals on products, medicines etc and incentivised on their savings. Do you think the above would still happen ?

I’m not saying that this would necessarily work in practice but it’s the type thing that should be being considered to ensure our money (it’s ours, the public’s !!) is spent wisely ! Rather than the same old lines being trotted out.

Ps just to repeat, the US health system is a disgrace !! I don’t want to see that in this country but I do want to see our money spent as sensibly/wisely as possible and the public to be more accountable for their actions/decisions

 

[Ian1779]

I agree 100% with the sentiment Ian but why is this money being wasted ??? Is there less accountability in the public sector ?

Let’s just say there was a private sector firm employed to undertake all of the purchasing, to get the best deals on products, medicines etc and incentivised on their savings. Do you think the above would still happen ?

I’m not saying that this would necessarily work in practice but it’s the type thing that should be being considered to ensure our money (it’s ours, the public’s !!) is spent wisely ! Rather than the same old lines being trotted out.

Ps just to repeat, the US health system is a disgrace !! I don’t want to see that in this country but I do want to see our money spent as sensibly/wisely as possible and the public to be more accountable for their actions/decisions

IMO (and I’m going to talk about Education as I know more) its pretty complex. Firstly, a lot of money is wasted due to constantly changing priorities, policy implementation and the latest ‘fads’. Every time there is a new education minister, they have their own ideas... and everything spent(wasted) is just cast aside. It’s staggering how much money and time is wasted in this way. Purchasing, expenditure, capital projects... all over priced and under estimated because of non-experts in decision making roles, that do not understand the complexities of the education sector, especially the transition between key phases and how other support services (social care, safeguarding) intertwine with it.

That said - the solution is not to simply drop in a private sector model. Kids/patients are not stakeholders. Their lives/education cannot be equated to a profit/loss.

There is lot of expertise within the education sector in how to make things better and at the same time save a lot of money. I assume the same would be true of the NHS. However it would appear that politicians/civil servants do not have the desire to listen, even when they are clearly NOT the experts in the field.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I named a few off the top of my head earlier ie clamping down on unattended appointments (15 million appointments according to NHS), allowing/not recovering foreign tourism costs (again estimated at several hundreds of million per annum). In addition there are numerous negligence claims against hospitals for errors when the culture has been not to properly record these errors and learn from mistakes (hence my reference to the book black box thinking). Historically there was significant waste by not having centralised purchasing across the Trusts (I presume this is still the case). By all accounts there is a load of middle management who cannot do their jobs (hence my earlier comments about the need to then pay millions to external accountants/professionals to come in to make the improvements/changes). All of the above add up to huge sums.

Poor health is a major issue. It’s not made up or a Tory narrative. Check the NHS data. Over 60% of adults overweight or obese ?! (30% obese and morbidly obese increasing from 1% to 4% over the last 25 years). What kind of strain does that put on the health service ?

Yet because it’s there and will deal with every ailment, for free, people will just abuse the system. It’s wrong !

Ps I do agree that the ageing population is putting a massive strain on the NHS and will continue to do so. I have said on other threads in the past, it’s a massive ticking timebomb that is being politicised rather than cross party solutions being found ! Unfortunately I wouldn’t rely on our politicians to behave like grown ups and address major issues like this constructively. Not when there can be political point scoring to be done !

I've worked in the NHS a few years, for a very long time there have been various central purchasing bodies and other ideas to try and aggregate purchasing. They have made savings but it genuinely is never ever going to make the kind of difference needed. If i hear one more stupid comment from an MP about buying surgical gloves I'll scream.

Middle management can't do their jobs, sounds like you've been reading the Daily Mail mate. Ironically the Tories created a huge layer of management with their 2012 reforms and the attempts to bring in private sector provision create a necessary bureaucracy. Instead of doctors you need contract managers.

NHS commissioners have measured and tried to clamp down on 'DNAs' for years. It happens already.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I've worked in the NHS a few years, for a very long time there have been various central purchasing bodies and other ideas to try and aggregate purchasing. They have made savings but it genuinely is never ever going to make the kind of difference needed. If i hear one more stupid comment from an MP about buying surgical gloves I'll scream.

Middle management can't do their jobs, sounds like you've been reading the Daily Mail mate. Ironically the Tories created a huge layer of management with their 2012 reforms and the attempts to bring in private sector provision create a necessary bureaucracy. Instead of doctors you need contract managers.

NHS commissioners have measured and tried to clamp down on 'DNAs' for years. It happens already.

Glad all’s well then !

Seriously though, as you work there you’ve obviously got a better understanding of certain elements of the NHS and I’m not suggesting for a minute that the suggestions are going to fix everything but even relatively minor changes or savings can correlate to big numbers due to the size of the NHS. This frees up cash for better care, increased salaries etc etc

I’m also sure there are/have been genuine attempts by some to implement change however from what I’ve heard I question whether both the overall culture and capability is there.

Ps Id prefer if you didn’t keep mentioning Tory/Daily Mail etc etc I’ve said previously that Ive known a number of consultants who have been in the NHS over the years (I was at a big four practice when they were undertaking several projects for a number of NHS trusts) and the frustrations they have faced. The fact that the NHS has consistently had to call upon professional advisors to drive and implement change/savings/restructuring suggests that they (middle management) have been unable and/or incapable to do a lot of this themselves. I have also mentioned a decent book (which I don’t think has an apparent strong political bias - I may be wrong) on the culture of the medical profession that focuses on why implementing change is challenging

 

[shmmeee]

People think the NHS is sacred because of the fact that it should really be a basic human right in a modern and civilised country, but I think most understand that it needs to look at the processes involved in running it from their own experiences using it.

I know its a very small example, but hospitals will pay in excess of £50 for a bottle of Calpol - which you can buy at Tesco for £3. That wastage of money is down to bureaucracy and archaic processes that need to be looked at. I can only imagine that can happen for something that small - imagine what that looks like on a bigger/national scale.

It is very similar in the education sector, so much money is wasted at director/consultant level, whether it is part of an academy trust, local authority or at the Department of Education. Also purchasing is another massive inefficiency. All of which means less money for kids in the classroom, and probably more importantly the social care aspect of education.

Privatisation doesn't fix these problems.

Privatisation exacerbates these issues. Jesus the waste I saw when a school turned from LA control to Academy. Would make your eyes water.

 

[shmmeee]

Glad all’s well then !

Ps I’ve mentioned previously that Ive known a number of consultants who have been in the NHS over the years (I was at a big four practice when they were undertaking several projects for a number of NHS trusts) and the frustrations they have faced. The fact that the NHS has consistently had to call upon professional advisors to drive and implement change/savings suggests that they (middle management) have been incapable to do this themselves.

It’s one of the largest employers on the planet. Of course it doesn’t run lean. But pound for pound it still produces much better healthcare outcomes than private systems around the world.

The idea that waste is anything other than expected in large organisations is naive and a red herring. Jesus my company is 11 people and still has massive waste.

 

[CCFCSteve]

It’s one of the largest employers on the planet. Of course it doesn’t run lean. But pound for pound it still produces much better healthcare outcomes than private systems around the world.

The idea that waste is anything other than expected in large organisations is naive and a red herring. Jesus my company is 11 people and still has massive waste.

I’ve not questioned the quality of the healthcare shmmee and I’m aware of waste across all companies. My point is that even the minor waste/inefficiencies in the NHS can run into millions or tens of millions....hence I go back to my original comment (that appears to have unintentionally upset a few on here !), that the NHS is a money pit ie as it’s currently structured you can keep chucking cash at it and it will always need more. Again, that doesn’t mean I’m questioning the quality and care of service provided by many etc etc

 

[Ian1779]

Privatisation exacerbates these issues. Jesus the waste I saw when a school turned from LA control to Academy. Would make your eyes water.

We had something similar when we were converted. Even now the school is run on a fairly skeletal staff, whilst the MAT has directors, advisers and consultants (all non-teaching) everywhere.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Privatisation exacerbates these issues. Jesus the waste I saw when a school turned from LA control to Academy. Would make your eyes water.

Yes, when this happens they're more interested in the colours of badges, mission statements and flashy job titles than they are the kids. Usualy this is accompanied by an exile of older, experienced staff who don't want the wheel reinvented for the umpteenth time.

 

[skybluegod]

I’ve not questioned the quality of the healthcare shmmee and I’m aware of waste across all companies. My point is that even the minor waste/inefficiencies in the NHS can run into millions or tens of millions....hence I go back to my original comment (that appears to have unintentionally upset a few on here !), that the NHS is a money pit ie as it’s currently structured you can keep chucking cash at it and it will always need more. Again, that doesn’t mean I’m questioning the quality and care of service provided by many etc etc

Just to add my experience of money waste within the NHS, i work for a company which is doing a simple WIN10 rollout got multiple NHS trusts. The contract has come through 3 companies with each of us adding a margin. If they had come directly to us they would have saved a lot more money.

Also my partner's dad runs a software company which is currently creating bespoke software in a handful of hospitals to replace Microsoft software that is being charged at extortionate rates. If he gets the contract for all hospitals it will save the NHS hundreds of millions ( it will be cheaper and more efficient although still not perfect).

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

A thing with the accounting of the NHS is that many of the economic benefits aren't seen directly and so while a lot of money is spent on it, very little is attributed to it.

Treatment of health problems and disease allowing people to return to work quicker, thus generating income and taxes as well as tax on things they spend wages on. Less money is spent on sick pay, benefits etc. Family members etc are able to work rather than be carers. There are social problems from children/families affected by ill health and bereavement, which can have costs of mental health provision, policing and justice etc.

It's why ideally I'd love to see the NHS become more about prevention than cure. I'm aware from medical experts than there is the trade off of these tests and the often unnecessary worry of abnormal results and intrusive nature of the tests but I think it's worthy of consideration especially as newer means of testing become available. No-one would suggest getting rid of smear testing because the benefits massively outweigh the costs.

There is undoubtedly massive wastage across the NHS (and most of the public sector) and having the free at source does lead to poor lifestyles and health choices but adding the private sector in to an even greater degree is not going to improve it. It may well bring in 'cost-efficiences' but these won't be for the benefit of patients and their families but for the profit of those running it. The primary focus will switch from patient care to profit. I don't want a system whereby your health is only considered important if the people providing the care make money from me - I don't want to be left to die because I'm not profitable.

And ironically many of the inefficiencies and high costs of things like drugs (or even simple tasks like changing light bulbs and photocopier toner) is due to sub-contracting and trying to bring in private sector led initiatives like added value and transfer pricing (a lecturer of mine did a research paper on it which we had to case study - one of the most tedious things I've ever had to do). Tendering out contracts can also be a massive issue as any 'cost savings' from the contract are often negated by excessive prices charged by the companies for the services etc as they then effectively have a monopoly on provision and it's not like the government is going to just not pay when extra charges come rolling in - they're there to make a profit. Similar in the US to the unbelievable cost of drugs, most of which are prescribed because doctors etc have a contract with the manufacturers for their particular medicine.

What we need is a system that looks far more at the massive broad benefits to the economy and well-being of the people on the whole rather than the very narrow aspect we currently do.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Sounds like the nhs is abused by private industry trying to make fast bucks to me

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Just to add my experience of money waste within the NHS, i work for a company which is doing a simple WIN10 rollout got multiple NHS trusts. The contract has come through 3 companies with each of us adding a margin. If they had come directly to us they would have saved a lot more money.

Also my partner's dad runs a software company which is currently creating bespoke software in a handful of hospitals to replace Microsoft software that is being charged at extortionate rates. If he gets the contract for all hospitals it will save the NHS hundreds of millions ( it will be cheaper and more efficient although still not perfect).

Why do software companies think it’s ok to make millions on contracts?

 

[skybluegod]

Why do software companies think it’s ok to make millions on contracts?

You'd have to ask the directors!

 

[shmmeee]

Why do software companies think it’s ok to make millions on contracts?

Because they can. Estimating software is hard to do up front.

We should have a national computing corporation like we have the BBC that’s solely dedicated to creating/customising software for government and UK business. They could make money for the treasury from patents and copyright as well. The GDS is a good start but far far too small.

 

[shmmeee]

Why do software companies think it’s ok to make millions on contracts?

To be fair, Google Deep Mind was founded by a Brit and one of the conditions of the Google buy out was that they’d help the NHS for free because the guy loves the NHS.

Of course then the tabloids got all “oooohhh scary Google” and tried to get that help shut down, but still.

 

[skybluetony176]

Widespread Islamophobia in the Conservative party making headlines on ITV news again. Both candidates have been accused of playing it down also.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Hunt offers MPs fox hunting vote

Jeremy C***, hopefully making pathetic claims like that will show what a twat he is... what fun could any tosser get from chasing a petrified animal around with packs of dogs. Prick

 

[Ian1779]

Widespread Islamophobia in the Conservative party making headlines on ITV news again. Both candidates have been accused of playing it down also.

Johnson has already gone back on his pledge to have an inquiry.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

He's playing to the crowd that will get him elected - the Conservative party membership. Don't expect him to ever actually do it because it would be deeply unpopular with a majority of the public, who'd be the ones to elect him next time round. Opportunist prick.