Wasps new deal with Compass

Discussion in 'Wasps' started by Jack Griffin, Jul 1, 2015.

  1. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    No, you said we should have taken the Wasps approach. That approach included moving 80+ miles. Simple really, it isn't a red herring is it? It is a fact.

    It isn't bullshit at all, part of the process of them and the Ricoh involved Wasps moving didn't it? Yes or no?
     
  2. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    So explain to me how us doing the deal Wasps did for ACL and the Ricoh would mean that we would have to move 80 miles? We would have had to move the 35 miles home from Sixfields but I can't work out where you're getting this 80 miles nonsense from.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  3. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    I haven't named the Ricoh. I have just commented on the "Wasps Approach" which involves moving a team as part of the deal.

    It could be we did the "Wasps Approach" and moved 80+ miles to somewhere else we could get better attendances and our own ground to "survive".

    You keep going on about CCFC doing the same deal that Wasps did and how it was there for them, I still don't see any proof though?

    You would have thought if it was Ann Lucas would have been straight on the front page saying "It could have been CCFC". Like when Maton suggested somewhere for the stadium, and the council invited bids on the Higgs share. Or when the council leaders were saying Hell would freeze over?
     
  4. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Well I was quite clearly talking about the Ricoh. So you've just inadvertently admitted that you're trying to sell a red herring. Presumably in an effort to make out I was saying something I wasn't.
     
  5. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    No, you said:

    I said:

    That isn't saying you said anything. Although nobody likes to answer what city fans would think if we moved.

    What about the approach to use it to get finance? Weren't city fans writing letters to councillors to prevent SISU ever buying it because of the same thing?

    Would it be the right approach if SISU bought it and then financed it?
     
  6. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    Ha ha Thick Tony having a nightmare. Not even the usual suspects will defend him. Carry on Tony this is comedy gold.
     
  7. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Mmm. Quoting sound bites in a lame effort to discredit the point someone has made. Of course any with a spec of intelligence will look at my entire posts and indeed the conversation that led up to that post so they can take it in context. Then there's also the fact that the thread is about ACL and the Ricoh so what else would I have been talking about?
     
  8. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah again. Grendull calling someone thick. Confirmation that you've made a point that Grendull can't dispute. Are you even aware you do it?
     
  9. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    You can't separate the sale of ACL and the fact that Wasps moved 85 miles to facilitate the move as they are inextricably linked.

    SISU would have reasonably assumed that it was a 'one horse race'. Who else in Coventry would have need of a 30K capacity stadium? There was mentions of CRFC moving there but I would think that would need back to back promotions, there was also talk of Nuneaton playing there if they achieved promotion to the FL however I would argue those kind of scenarios were unlikley. Of course the complex could have been sold to a company specialising in exhibition space or something similar but at no point did that really seem to be on the cards.

    It was unthinkable that the ground would be sold to facilitate the franchising in of a team from outside the city even without what had happened to us with the move to Northampton. Very simply it should never have been an option. Think back to when we were at Sixfields, there was uproar. CCC, Higgs and ACL couldn't stop talking about how disgraceful it was for us to be playing outside of Coventry. The CT were running campaigns demanding our return. Every CWR phone in had people blasting the club for playing outside the city. Thousands of people marched through the streets.

    Against that backdrop Wasps purchasing ACL and moving 85 miles should never have been an option therefore SISU would have been operating on that basis.

    Now at some point the council decided teams moving was actually a fantastic idea and started talks with Wasps. At this point common courtesy would have seen a call to SISU to say the situation has changed. That doesn't break commercial confidentially, at no point did Wasps have an exclusivity agreement so CCC and Higgs were perfectly entitled to be in negotiation with others. Even if you ignore common courtesy and look at it from other standpoints that call should still have been made. If you look at it from a standpoint that CCC is here to serve the best interests of the city of Coventry the call should have been made, if you look at it from a purely commercial standpoint that call should have been made (two rival bidders would drive the price up and get a better return for the taxpayer and the charity). There is no scenario in which that call should not have been made. SISU never had an opportunity to bid on the basis they weren't the only interested party.

    To use the favourite house buying analogy. If you want to buy a house that has been for sale and stood empty for a year you would bid low. If you knew others were interested and had placed a bid at the full valuation you would bid higher.

    Wasps coming to the table totally changed the situation, it should not have been shrouded in secrecy. To say SISU should have done the deal that Wasps did is simply disingenuous.
     
  10. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Here you go Nick. This is pretty much all my posts on this thread and at a quick glance I would say I'm making it clear that I'm taking about ACL and the Ricoh on this thread about ACL and the Ricoh in around half of them. Why would you think I was talking about anything else?
     
  11. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    Is there anyone with a "spec" of intelligence on this thread Tony? As no one else agrees with you?
     
  12. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    Didn't you call me, Nick, Chiefdave and Sickboy stupid?
     
  13. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I did. I'm still surprised by Chief Dave too. What you don't seem to be able to grasp is I did it as part of an explanation as to why I believe you are, at least on this point anyway. You just go straight to name call with no explanation as to why, that's the difference.
     
  14. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    Did you? I suggest you revisit and see who started the insults and name calling. It's you that started blathering on about six figure salaries, calling people stupid. I think the debate was perfectly civil until your immaturity came in.
     
  15. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Dave. The fact is if SISU had have done the deal Wasps did for the Ricoh the only distance CCFC would have moved would have been the 35 miles back home. So as far as SISU doing the the deal Wasps did the 80 miles they moved to the Ricoh is completely irrelevant to SISU conducting themselves in the same manner as Wasps did to achieve the deal they did.

    As for SISU reasonably assuming that it was a one horse race what is it they say about assumption being the mother of something?

    Bloody hell, people on here were predicting something like what's happened happening the minute the Sixfields agreement was made and got mocked for it by the likes of Grendull. Someone even once suggested the Wasps and got shot down by a certain group of posters. Funnily enough the same little gang who have got literally everything wrong on this subject right up until predicting that the over subscribed closed early Wasps prospective was doomed for failure. The next big test is I guess the naming rights at the Ricoh. I predicted some time ago, long before Wasps turned up that JLR would be a good fit, no prizes for guessing which poster laughed me down. Looks odd's on now wouldn't you agree? Given JLR's partnership with.
     
  16. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for calling you a big business man on a six figure salary. You're clearly not. Sorry again.
     
  17. James Smith

    James Smith Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that the two faced council would simply mention something along the lines of "No point doing that Sisu said they didn't want it" if they ever did give an answer.
     
  18. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Tony, unless I'm misunderstanding your argument seems to be that SISU could have, and should have, made the exact same deal Wasps made.

    There appears to be no evidence at all to support your assumption. CCC could easily have said the same terms were available to SISU but were rejected by them, the fact that they haven't said anything remotely like that suggests to me its not the case.

    In fact while there is no evidence to support your assumption there is evidence to suggest the opposite is true, that in fact for reasons unknown CCC were resistant to CCFC gaining ownership of ACL. Think back to when SISU first arrived. At the time there were other interested parties, all those other parties required ground ownership as part of any takeover, they all walked away after meeting with CCC as there was no deal to be done. In fact we have CCC to thank for ending up with SISU as owners as they were the only ones prepared to buy us without owning the ground.

    Look at the comments of Mutton and Lucas as leaders of CCC, both have stated there would be no sale to CCFC. Mutton was particularly critical of the club and its owners. Many hoped that when he lost the leadership things might improve but at that point he was moved on to a committee to oversee the Ricoh.

    And of course there's the outright deception around the return of the club and the sale to Wasps. Within a matter of days it had gone from the club coming back and hopes for a better relationship leading to the club taking at least part ownership of the ground to ACL being sold to Wasps.

    Don't confuse confidentiality with exclusivity. There was absolutely nothing preventing CCC informing SISU an offer had been made and asking them to match or better it. In fact that would be the sensible thing to do if you want to maximise your return. The ideal situation for the charity and the local taxpayer would have been a bidding war between SISU and Wasps for ownership of the Ricoh.
     
  19. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

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    The Wasps deal wasn't there to be done with the club. I can say this with complete confidence because the Council never made the same offer to the club, or indeed even started an open bidding process for the Ricoh.

    In fact the council's official, public line was that they would talk about ownership with the club after rebuilding trust. Why people ignore this simple fact is beyond me.
     
  20. James Smith

    James Smith Well-Known Member

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    The ACL answer to the Trust Q&A about discussions about changing the rent said that there hadn't been any serious propositions from Sisu before April 2012 only light touch discussions. The club answered with "Not sure of historic negotiations" to that question.

    That ACL admin attempt went back to the insolvent liquidation comment from Tim didn't it? They were thinking along the lines of we might not see any rent money back if he does that. I can't imagine that the Higgs ever wanted to run or own our club. I suspect that they know as much about doing so as Sisu and they don't appear to know a fat lot given our current position etc.
    Tim shouldn't have said it as it obviously started a reaction and the hypocritical council shouldn't have looked upon this as a chance for regime change.

    The judge appeared to take that view.
    Quite how two faced the council were staggers me. It's not alright for SISU to take us many miles to Sixfields but it is for Wasps to movemany more!
     
  21. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    I think if you read between the lines, especially to some of the direct questions PWKH was asked you could easily draw the conclusion that the club made approaches about renegotiating the rent but there were never any actual negotiations as ACL wouldn't come to the table.

    This was around the time PH4 was sniffing around wasn't it. Could they have been hoping to force SISU out so he could take their place? I don't think they could have seriously thought Fisher was going to liquidate the club, just gave them a convenient excuse.
     
  22. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Where is this magical world where SISU have to be automatically offered a deal another party has negotiated? Was there a first refusal contract in place with SISU and CCC that only the posters who keep spouting this line know about? It's just not within the realms of the real world.

    Plus if the opinion piece blog that grendull insists is fact the Wasps deal was two years in the making. Posters have claimed on here that members of the CCFC board were showing fans in private meetings a copy of the Wasps prospective that was apparently doing the rounds in the investment market while we were in our first season at Sixfields.

    So lets not kid ourselves that SISU didn't have ample opportunity to enter into negotiations, hell the council leader even got on a train and went to London to see JS in person. Straight to the horses mouth so to speak. If ever there was a case of leading a horse to water but not being able to make it drink this is that case.

    Rather than get focused on the imaginary scenario where SISU automatically have the right to be offered someone else's negotiated deal why don't you join the real world and ask why didn't SISU pursue their own negotiations given that they not only had time but were also apparently aware that they weren't the only show in town.
     
  23. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    There's two ways of looking at this.

    The first is that the role of CCC is to work to the advantage of the city. I would say that would mean they should be putting the needs of the likes of CCFC and CRFC above the needs of a rugby club from London. Therefore it would follow that before selling ACL to an organisation with no connection to the city they would make every attempt to ensure it remained with an organisation with a long history in the city.

    The second is as a pure business transaction. In that scenario there is no way you would even consider conducting a transaction in the manner CCC have undertaken the sale of ACL. Lets use the old favourite house buying analogy to illustrate. Say you own a house that you purchased for £500K. You rent that house out, the rent covers the mortgage but the rent is much higher than the market rate and your tenants aren't happy. However they have expressed an interest in buying the house for themselves but have yet to make a formal offer and the house is not on the openly being marketed for sale. A third party comes to you and offers you £250K on the house meaning you would lose money.

    What would you do? You could sell the house to them and lose money, you could tell your tenants you have had an offer (maybe even tell them how much for) and hope they make a bigger offer or you could get an estate agent in and put your house up for sale. Which of these options do you think would give you the best return and which the worst?
     
  24. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Ha ha. Make a bigger offer! SISU never showed a willingness to make any offer.
     
  25. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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  26. James Smith

    James Smith Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the best option for the council would have been an auction between Wasps and Sisu. From the perspective of Wasps it would suck as they'd have competition. So if it were me as wasps and approaching the council I would make the confidentiality like a super injunction and make forbidden any discussion of an offer as part of that. It still wouldn't be exclusivity which might cost more but would prevent the council from even acknowledging an offer. I'm not saying that this is what happened just what was probably possible.
     
  27. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    The difference between confidentiality and exclusivity is key here. Confidentially means there is absolutely nothing stopping CCC informing anyone that they had better get a bid in quickly as a sale is about to take place. In reality taking and successfully action for breach of confidentially in a case such as this would be incredibly hard, especially if it was just a quiet for to Fisher in a face to face meeting.

    Exclusivity is a whole different thing and would normally be accompanied by a substantial non returnable payment from the potential purchaser.
     
  28. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    If CCC were as certain you are no offer would be made by SISU then why not give them the option? They can then sell to Wasps telling us all that they offered SISU the same deal and they turned it down.
     
  29. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
  30. James Smith

    James Smith Well-Known Member

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    I haven't read back over the posts as I have been at work today but I will. The problem with reading between the lines is that it's open to interpretation. It's too easy to interpret things in a particular way which might be wrong.

    Given the comments from councillors I wouldn't put anything past them but as with the PWKH posts it's supposition again.
     
  31. Ian1779

    Ian1779 Well-Known Member

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    If this had occurred then we wouldn't be having this debate.
     
  32. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Hang on, you said SISU never showed any willingness to make an offer. I post a link showing they have made an offer, surely that proves they were willing to make an offer?
     
  33. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, had their been an open sale process then no fingers could be pointed at CCC. Instead they chose to operate in secret while openly lying to CCFC and the people of the city.
     
  34. James Smith

    James Smith Well-Known Member

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    Hence why I wouldn't want exclusivity if I were Wasps might defeat the chance of getting it cheaply. However if there is a clause in the confidentiality agreement that says you can't acknowledge there's been an offer let alone talk about it. Nothing to stop anyone else from putting an offer in but you can't acknowledge that they're bidding against somebody else. It has another benefit though It doesn't tip off other potential bidders (i.e. sisu) that you or anyone else is interested. Can't be that hard for a lawyer to draft something like that.
     
  35. skybluetony176

    skybluetony176 Well-Known Member

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    They weren't buying a second hand LADA on eBay. This was a major business deal involving serious amounts of money. When Wasps and CCC reached the final figure do you think Wasps said to CCC make sure you offer this around it's only fair we have no interest in protecting the time and money we've invested to get to this point? Or was it probably more along the lines of don't do all of that? Surely we can assume from the Higgs/SISU court case there would have been pre contract agreements in place to protect both parties? They're not always worth the paper they're written on going by the Higgs/SISU court case but I find it hard to believe that such a pre contract agreement wasn't in place as it seems to be standard practice in such transactions.

    Would this mean that CCC couldn't hawk what Wasps negotiated around? It's quite probable I would think. Did it mean that SISU couldn't start a separate set of negotiations and agree a deal for ACL that THEY were happy to pay? I doubt it. I'm pretty sure the UK operates something called a free market which from my understanding means that SISU had every right and opportunity to negotiate with CCC if they chose to and there's the real issue. SISU chose not to and why posters on hear can't/won't accept that is beyond me.
     

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