USSR invades Ukraine. (10 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Russia's apparent list of demands for peace talks.

And people wonder why Ukraine keep fighting?

1. Ukraine withdraws from four partially occupied regions (Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, Zaporizhzhia) and lets Russia have them. "International recognition" follows.
2. Ukraine pledges never to join any military alliances or coalitions (NATO etc). No foreign boots on the ground or military infrastructure either.
3. Any current or future efforts to this end are rolled back or banned.
4. No nuclear weapons for Ukraine.
5. Caps on Ukraine's military. Far-right units are disbanded.
6. "Full guarantee of rights for Russian speakers." Russian becomes an official language.
7. Ban on "glorification and promoting of Nazism and neo-Nazism." Nationalist parties and groups are disbanded.
8. All western sanctions are lifted. No sanctions can be introduced in future either.
9. "Resolution of issues" with family reunification and displaced persons.
10. Both sides agree not to demand reparations.
11. Ukraine rolls back its restrictions on the Russian Orthodox Church.
12. Full restoration of diplomatic and economic relations, "including gas transit," as well as transport and "other ties, including with third countries."

They keep fighting as Zelensky won’t give in and doesn’t care. I don’t see him looking too hungry or unhealthy.

A lot of those demands are pretty much what you’d have expected

 

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[Grendel]

It seems internal well respected figures aren’t too thrilled with Zelensky either

'It Stinks of Authoritarianism': Kyiv Mayor Klitschko’s Stunning Accusation Against Zelensky - Novinite.com - Sofia News Agency

Kyiv Mayor Vitalii Klitschko has openly accused President Volodymyr Zelensky of concentrating power in a way that threatens Ukraine’s democratic foundations, claiming the country now "stinks of authoritarianism." His remarks came in an interview with The Times, which published an in-depth...

m.novinite.com

 

[Captain Dart]

It seems internal well respected figures aren’t too thrilled with Zelensky either

'It Stinks of Authoritarianism': Kyiv Mayor Klitschko’s Stunning Accusation Against Zelensky - Novinite.com - Sofia News Agency

Kyiv Mayor Vitalii Klitschko has openly accused President Volodymyr Zelensky of concentrating power in a way that threatens Ukraine’s democratic foundations, claiming the country now "stinks of authoritarianism." His remarks came in an interview with The Times, which published an in-depth...

m.novinite.com

Klitschko coup coming up in 1...2...3... or Klitschko arrest and internment or continues to be free to agitate from the sidelines but has no real power because Zelensky emasculated the role of Mayor of Kiev.

Whatever happens I think he will probably be Zelensky's successor within the next 2 years

 

[Sick Boy]

Russia's apparent list of demands for peace talks.

And people wonder why Ukraine keep fighting?

1. Ukraine withdraws from four partially occupied regions (Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, Zaporizhzhia) and lets Russia have them. "International recognition" follows.
2. Ukraine pledges never to join any military alliances or coalitions (NATO etc). No foreign boots on the ground or military infrastructure either.
3. Any current or future efforts to this end are rolled back or banned.
4. No nuclear weapons for Ukraine.
5. Caps on Ukraine's military. Far-right units are disbanded.
6. "Full guarantee of rights for Russian speakers." Russian becomes an official language.
7. Ban on "glorification and promoting of Nazism and neo-Nazism." Nationalist parties and groups are disbanded.
8. All western sanctions are lifted. No sanctions can be introduced in future either.
9. "Resolution of issues" with family reunification and displaced persons.
10. Both sides agree not to demand reparations.
11. Ukraine rolls back its restrictions on the Russian Orthodox Church.
12. Full restoration of diplomatic and economic relations, "including gas transit," as well as transport and "other ties, including with third countries."

Well hopefully the far-right units are disbanded.

 

[CCFCSteve]

They keep fighting as Zelensky won’t give in and doesn’t care. I don’t see him looking too hungry or unhealthy.

A lot of those demands are pretty much what you’d have expected

Expected requests but not really realistic. Hopefully there’s a willingness to move on a few of them otherwise there’s never going to be a negotiated end

 

[Grendel]

Expected requests but not really realistic. Hopefully there’s a willingness to move on a few of them otherwise there’s never going to be a negotiated end

Other than 8 what realistically is Russia going to cede on?

 

[Grendel]

Klitschko coup coming up in 1...2...3... or Klitschko arrest and internment or continues to be free to agitate from the sidelines but has no real power because Zelensky emasculated the role of Mayor of Kiev.

Whatever happens I think he will probably be Zelensky's successor within the next 2 years

Lets hope so as he is far more pragmatic

 

[SBT]

Well hopefully the far-right units are disbanded.

Given that de-Nazification is what this whole war is about, maybe it should be the only stipulation.

 

[PVA]

Klitschko is around 1pt in presidential voting intention compared to about 40pts for Zelensky.

 

[Grendel]

Klitschko is around 1pt in presidential voting intention compared to about 40pts for Zelensky.

Putin wins every Russian election lol

 

[CCFCSteve]

Other than 8 what realistically is Russia going to cede on?

They can’t have it all ways, a military cap, no foreign troops on ground and no NATO. Just asking to be invaded again

I do think agreeing not to join NATO would be part of any settlement but if Ukraine agreed to the rest they’ll be left exposed

I also don’t see ukraine agreeing to no demand of reparations (‘either side’ is surely a wind up comment !)

 

[PVA]

Other than 8 what realistically is Russia going to cede on?

Ohh you're so close to getting it.

 

[Grendel]

Ohh you're so close to getting it.

I don't think so.

Lets be honest you genuinely thought just as Zelensky wanted the surrender of Crimea that had to happen -- it was never happening. You have parroted his nonsense for 3 years and all he does is get more fame while his people die.

Those terms are not ay surprise and now for peace they need consideration.

 

[Grendel]

They can’t have it all ways, a military cap, no foreign troops on ground and no NATO. Just asking to be invaded again

I do think agreeing not to join NATO would be part of any settlement but if Ukraine agreed to the rest they’ll be left exposed

I also don’t see ukraine agreeing to no demand of reparations (‘either side’ is surely a wind up comment !)

They will never be allowed to join NATO and nor should they. There is zero chance of reparations - not a hope in hell.

 

[PVA]

Those terms are not ay surprise and now for peace they need consideration.

Those terms are fucking absurd and not worth the paper they are written on. They deserve the derision from they are getting (from rational people, not you and your fellow tankies).

All they guarantee is that Russia will return in 5 years and take the whole lot.

 

[Grendel]

Those terms are fucking absurd and not worth the paper they are written on. They deserve the derision from they are getting (from rational people, not you and your fellow tankies).

All they guarantee is that Russia will return in 5 years and take the whole lot.

I suspect you won’t even accept the first demand - that’s never going to change. Zelensky and his demand for total withdrawal is beyond ridiculous is it not?

 

[SBAndy]

I don't think so.

Lets be honest you genuinely thought just as Zelensky wanted the surrender of Crimea that had to happen -- it was never happening. You have parroted his nonsense for 3 years and all he does is get more fame while his people die.

Those terms are not ay surprise and now for peace they need consideration.

Fucking embarrassing.

 

[Grendel]

Fucking embarrassing.

What’s embarrassing is Europe’s continued obsession with a conflict that we should never have been involved in and continues to drain resources.

Now we apparently need to get “war ready” and waste even more money on armed forces and nuclear weapons while the economy collapses.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

What’s embarrassing is Europe’s continued obsession with a conflict that we should never have been involved in and continues to drain resources.

Now we apparently need to get “war ready” and waste even more money on armed forces and nuclear weapons while the economy collapses.

Have you considered that western Europe may have supported Ukraine in order to give themselves chance to bulk up their own defences in response to increased Russian aggression over the last few years. They had relied on Uncle Sam since 1945 but with the orange one's KowTowing to Putin it has put paid to that and forced quicker investment and expansion.
Europe has turned a blind eye to many smaller acts of state sponsored terrorism, constant prodding and provocation over the last decade but Putin actually invading Ukraine has made them all realise that he will go further than the odd poisoning, Airspace incursion or arson attack.
If you don't think that something akin to Israel's current actions and aims in Gaza would have happened if Ukraine had caved in then you are being very naive. Ukraine and its heritage would have been erased.

 

[PVA]

What’s embarrassing is Europe’s continued obsession with a conflict that we should never have been involved in and continues to drain resources.

Europe's continued 'obsession' with a conflict in... Europe?

 

[Grendel]

Have you considered that western Europe may have supported Ukraine in order to give themselves chance to bulk up their own defences in response to increased Russian aggression over the last few years. They had relied on Uncle Sam since 1945 but with the orange one's KowTowing to Putin it has put paid to that and forced quicker investment and expansion.
Europe has turned a blind eye to many smaller acts of state sponsored terrorism, constant prodding and provocation over the last decade but Putin actually invading Ukraine has made them all realise that he will go further than the odd poisoning, Airspace incursion or arson attack.
If you don't think that something akin to Israel's current actions and aims in Gaza would have happened if Ukraine had caved in then you are being very naive. Ukraine and its heritage would have been erased.

The only person who’s naive is you. Ukraines heritage is steeped in Russian heritage.

 

[Grendel]

Europe's continued 'obsession' with a conflict in... Europe?

So were all the countries Stalin moved in on. Don’t think we really cared did we?

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

The only person who’s naive is you. Ukraines heritage is steeped in Russian heritage.

That is irrelevant. They were and are intertwined but are still separate, independent countries. Having things in common with a neighbouring country doesn't give the other a right to invade and commit war crimes does it?

 

[Grendel]

That is irrelevant. They were and are intertwined but are still separate, independent countries. Having things in common with a neighbouring country doesn't give the other a right to invade and commit war crimes does it?

It was Russian for 400 years, Thats pretty intertwined. The effective removal of Russian language in the Eastern states once the military coup overthrew an elected president (very democratic that) was hardly an acknowledgement of integration.

 

[Flying Fokker]

Russia closes Crimea bridge hours after Ukraine underwater strike

Ukraine says it hit the bridge with underwater explosives - the crossing was built by Russia after it annexed the Crimean Peninsula.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

It was Russian for 400 years, Thats pretty intertwined. The effective removal of Russian language in the Eastern states once the military coup overthrew an elected president (very democratic that) was hardly an acknowledgement of integration.

If you mean an elected president in the Lukashenko mould, then yes you could say that he was 'elected'. Placed there as part of Russia's plan to bring Ukraine back under Russia's control.
As England held large parts of Brittany hundreds of years ago, have we got the same rights as Russia to invade Northern and Western France now then?

 

[SBT]

The only person who’s naive is you. Ukraines heritage is steeped in Russian heritage.

More heartwarming words of peace from the forum’s resident pacifist.

 

[Grendel]

If you mean an elected president in the Lukashenko mould, then yes you could say that he was 'elected'. Placed there as part of Russia's plan to bring Ukraine back under Russia's control.
As England held large parts of Brittany hundreds of years ago, have we got the same rights as Russia to invade Northern and Western France now then?

It was 1991 not hundreds of years ago and he was elected.

The biggest folly was Gorbachov and his cosying to Western powers. The subsequent poverty Russian citizens were plunged into is not forgotten.

Putin is a Czarist he has no appetite for a USSR Iron Block.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

They keep fighting as Zelensky won’t give in and doesn’t care. I don’t see him looking too hungry or unhealthy.

A lot of those demands are pretty much what you’d have expected

Hypothetically if it were your country at war and it had these demands made of them by an aggressor who invaded you, would you accept them?

Would you be happy if Britain were invaded and conceded all of these points to the invader for 'peace' (when in reality you'd know they would invade further later on)?

 

[fatso]

They keep fighting as Zelensky won’t give in and doesn’t care. I don’t see him looking too hungry or unhealthy.

A lot of those demands are pretty much what you’d have expected

They should sign ASAP before Putin changes his mind.

It's almost as if Russia is wanting the pre existing de-militarised zone agreement re instating.

If they don't sign it, America will almost certainly turn off the supply of weapons, and Putin will be free to take even more of Ukraine.

This was always the inevitable outcome, as predicted 18 months ago.

 

[Grendel]

Hypothetically if it were your country at war and it had these demands made of them by an aggressor who invaded you, would you accept them?

Would you be happy if Britain were invaded and conceded all of these points to the invader for 'peace' (when in reality you'd know they would invade further later on)?

That is their choice. It is not our battle. Of course they can fight until every Ukrainian is dead if that is what they want. Anyone in their 40's and beyond would have lived under the Russian flag.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

It was 1991 not hundreds of years ago and he was elected.

The biggest folly was Gorbachov and his cosying to Western powers. The subsequent poverty Russian citizens were plunged into is not forgotten.

Putin is a Czarist he has no appetite for a USSR Iron Block.

That still doesn't justify an invasion, war crimes, theft of children and countless other atrocities carried out though does it? Ukraine was previously and is now a independent country and its borders respected.

Russians were only plunged into poverty as the corrupt elite ringfenced the money, industry and resources for themselves and their friends. But hey, Chelsea had a great time on it.

There are plenty of reports that confirm that he does want a soviet style return of Russian control over its neighbouring countries. He has been trying to assert influence in ex soviet countries for years.

 

[Grendel]

That still doesn't justify an invasion, war crimes, theft of children and countless other atrocities carried out though does it? Ukraine was previously and is now a independent country and its borders respected.

Russians were only plunged into poverty as the corrupt elite ringfenced the money, industry and resources for themselves and their friends. But hey, Chelsea had a great time on it.

There are plenty of reports that confirm that he does want a soviet style return of Russian control over its neighbouring countries. He has been trying to assert influence in ex soviet countries for years.

Sorry the poverty statement is rubbish. The Russian economy collapsed well before the sell off of reserves under Yeltsin. People were literally chucked on the streets. Gorbachov is reviled in Russia.

 

[SBT]

Would you be happy if Britain were invaded and conceded all of these points to the invader for 'peace' (when in reality you'd know they would invade further later on)?

Naive. Britain’s heritage is steeped in French and Dutch heritage.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Naive. Britain’s heritage is steeped in French and Dutch heritage.

I was originally going to ask if he'd be happy for Britain to be given over to any of the French, Germans, Danish or Italians because of our Norman, Saxon, Danelaw and Roman history.