David O'Day
Well-Known Member
people bite at that one every year
Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (23 Viewers)
- Thread starter tisza
- Start date
duffer
Well-Known Member
He LITERALLY said he was ok with it. I guess he wasn't thinking it might be himself or someone that he cared about.
Anyway, actual work to do, sorry. I'll leave you to mourn his passing in peace.
Don't forget to strongly advocate against violence and hatred in all its forms, be it against people of any creed or colour or belief. I can see that it's something you care very strongly about.
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
I think we all have the right to be innocent till proven guilty. I’m sure you agree with that right?
Because of that right, we know that rapists and even murderers will have walked free.
Whilst we support the right of innocent till proven guilty, and accept that guilty people will walk free, it doesn’t mean we want rapists and murders to get away with it does it?
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
Do you think murderers walking free is a price worth paying to have a legal system that has to prove your guilt?
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
that is not even in the same universe
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
Yes it is. It’s about supporting certain rights.
Most of support a right that allows murderers to walk free.
It doesn’t mean we want murders to happen
Ccfc_Addy
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't normally wade in, but emotions are high including my own and I kind of want to get my thoughts down.
First and foremost: The USA holds a very special place in my heart, I lived there for three years as a child and prior to lockdown I would visit at least once a year. The normalisation of gun violence in the USA is abominable and a source of eternal national shame; what happened to Kirk absolutely should not have happened. Nobody deserves to be gunned down in cold blood and what happened yesterday should not happen to anyone. It is appalling and unconscionable that those living in the USA have to deal with randomly being shot to death or caught up in a mass shooting as part of their everyday life. I feel utterly wretched for Kirk's wife and children, who in addition to mourning his death and the trauma of witnessing it first-hand, have to deal with an unimaginable public-facing hell they're about to be cast into.
However, a couple of others things about this, and I will plead with anyone reading this to understand that it's possible to hold more than one thought in your head at the same time, and nothing I'm about to say invalidates what I've said above:
Firstly: We know nothing about the perpetrator, let alone their motives for doing what they've done. At this point it genuinely could be anyone motivated by anything. Anyone talking about "political violence" or using this as an excuse to talk about free speech, violence on "the left" or anything of the sort is projecting.
Secondly: Questioning why proven acts of political violence, such as the lawmakers being executed in the homes by a Trump supporter not even two months ago (which Trump still hasn't directly commented on), don't get the same level of universal condemnation from the USA's lawmakers is valid. Even today, Trump has condemned a select list of acts of political violence without mentioning it.
Thirdly: The etiquette of "respecting the dead" should not be a reason to whitewash the person Charlie Kirk was, the kind of society he wanted to live in and promote, the beliefs he popularised or what he did with his enormous platform. How he reacted to violence against his political enemies, and his views on gun rights, are a worthy topic of conversation in the wake of what's happened to him.
Whatever else you can say about Kirk: He was extremely proud of his views and defended them vociferously. He would not and did not hold the same level of respect and empathy to his political enemies that's being demanded to be shown to him, and many ways I think that he wouldn't be happy that his beliefs are being erased in the name of empathy. Obituaries are an important part of history and these discussions shouldn't stop.
First and foremost: The USA holds a very special place in my heart, I lived there for three years as a child and prior to lockdown I would visit at least once a year. The normalisation of gun violence in the USA is abominable and a source of eternal national shame; what happened to Kirk absolutely should not have happened. Nobody deserves to be gunned down in cold blood and what happened yesterday should not happen to anyone. It is appalling and unconscionable that those living in the USA have to deal with randomly being shot to death or caught up in a mass shooting as part of their everyday life. I feel utterly wretched for Kirk's wife and children, who in addition to mourning his death and the trauma of witnessing it first-hand, have to deal with an unimaginable public-facing hell they're about to be cast into.
However, a couple of others things about this, and I will plead with anyone reading this to understand that it's possible to hold more than one thought in your head at the same time, and nothing I'm about to say invalidates what I've said above:
Firstly: We know nothing about the perpetrator, let alone their motives for doing what they've done. At this point it genuinely could be anyone motivated by anything. Anyone talking about "political violence" or using this as an excuse to talk about free speech, violence on "the left" or anything of the sort is projecting.
Secondly: Questioning why proven acts of political violence, such as the lawmakers being executed in the homes by a Trump supporter not even two months ago (which Trump still hasn't directly commented on), don't get the same level of universal condemnation from the USA's lawmakers is valid. Even today, Trump has condemned a select list of acts of political violence without mentioning it.
Thirdly: The etiquette of "respecting the dead" should not be a reason to whitewash the person Charlie Kirk was, the kind of society he wanted to live in and promote, the beliefs he popularised or what he did with his enormous platform. How he reacted to violence against his political enemies, and his views on gun rights, are a worthy topic of conversation in the wake of what's happened to him.
Whatever else you can say about Kirk: He was extremely proud of his views and defended them vociferously. He would not and did not hold the same level of respect and empathy to his political enemies that's being demanded to be shown to him, and many ways I think that he wouldn't be happy that his beliefs are being erased in the name of empathy. Obituaries are an important part of history and these discussions shouldn't stop.
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
no, it's just you trying to justify your fucked logic where you tied yourself in knots
there is not a universe where being okay with people being murdered is in anyway the same as fair criminal justice system
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
You support a legal system that you know lets killers walk free? Yes?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
So on what basis do you convict anyone then? A gut feeling? A hunch?
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
i'm not playing your frankly bizarre game
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
With overwhelming evidence, otherwise you assume they are innocent.
However in doing that we know murderers will escape justice.
But we consider that a price worth paying to uphold the basic right of innocent till proven guilty
rondog1973
Well-Known Member
Timothy McVeigh too further afield
mmttww
Well-Known Member
If you can, you should. Excellent post.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Course
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
And that is the same with many of the right to bear arms lot.
Frankly I don’t understand the American right’s obsession with guns, but I can understand you can support a legal right, accept it has consequences, but still not want those consequences to happen
rondog1973
Well-Known Member
Attachments
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I would add I would understand this if they took steps to limit those consequences
KenilworthSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure it's right to say that he didn't care, but as with many Americans, Kirk was a constitution fanatic who genuinely believed that a repeal of the Second Amendment would expose Americans to government tyranny and leave citizens vulnerable to whatever threat they think they might face in day to day life.
This isn't just a Charlie Kirk problem though, a worrying proportion of the US population will probably share those fanatical views in some shape or form.
For a repeal of the Second Amendment to even be made remotely possible, the culture of the country towards gun ownership needs to change, as does their unhealthy obsessive relationship with an outdated 200+ year old set of principles and rules which were written in a pre-democratic era.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Fair challenge I’m sure he did care and I’m sure his family and friends care that’s he’s been murdered by a gun that didn’t need to be out there in society
I’m certainly going to try and make sure I try and climb into another persons shoes before saying stupid comments about things I feel I have some knowledge of
I won’t master it but I’ll do better
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
You would rather lock innocent people up (and for crimes with capital punishment, kill them), than let guilty people go free. I know which of the two is the lesser evil for me.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
The only difference with that is sympathy is about showing concern for someone who’s going through something you have experienced. Empathy is showing concern for someone who’s going through something you haven’t
strange hill to stand on
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
The American right act with guns the same way that the British left act with the NHS.
Any attempt at reforming it is a complete no go
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I’d say British rather than add left
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
No the opposite.
I consider the right to innocence till proven guilty to be so important that I accept guilty people will walk free. People are literally getting away with murder yet I still support that right.
That doesn’t mean I want murders to happen
The same goes for the gun fanatics in America. They can support the right to bear arms without actually wanting people to be shot.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
From 3 years ago this, but even so.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
There are plenty across the political spectrum in the UK who want to keep the NHS.
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
it's the one great political unifier in the UK.
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
It’s not about keeping it or getting rid of it.
It’s about reforming it. Any time someone tries to change it they get accused of wanting to privatise it
mmttww
Well-Known Member
No they don't. One set of people ignore evidence from across the world around gun control and what the results are, the other might point to evidence from around the world that NHS-type systems tend to deliver the best results for the most people.
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
Interestingly he's been sacked for admitting writing messages in something Trump says doesn't exist.
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
Despite record sums of money, the NHS is failing. We’re falling behind other countries.
It’s clear it needs some time of modernisation/reform, yet any attempts to do that are branded as privatisation by some. Meanwhile the NHS falls down international league tables every year
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
There why were there no reforms under a right wing government over the last 14 years?