The Official Petition Thread (2 Viewers)

[Nick]

I asked a few questions yesterday and just got abused when I mentioned the wording and finding out why people won't sign it (not just to do with the wording, but all sorts of reasons) to see if anything can be adjusted.

Edit : I can understand people are very passionate and are working hard, but nobody is trying to discredit or be insulting / offend. I think they are offering their viewpoint because they want to do anything they can to sort the club out also. If anybody does literally just try to WUM then just report it!

 

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[ashbyjan]

Just an update - yesterday the Trust sent details of the e-petition directly to 87 other Trusts. Already Hull, Wrexham, Chelsea and Notts County have responded and are sending it on to members and/or putting it on their websites

 

[SkyBlueDog]

Ok, I can see you are playing Devil´s Advocate to a certain degree here:

Michael do you understand that it is not automatic that if you achieve 100k you get a parliamentary debate?

-- Clarification might help, but anyone can read the FAQ and terms of the petitions. Noone is being misled. There is a chance of a parliamentary debate, certainly more if you sign it than if you don´t.

BTW do you honestly believe achieving 100k is going to force their hands?

-- Maybe or maybe not but there is a chance it will impact them in a way they don´t want to be impacted. We won´t know until we get there, will we?

I am becoming quite disturbed by the responses to my questions. Not in the tone, but rather the naive optimism.

-- I´d take naive optimism over sceptical defeatism anyday

This next bit is a massive problem with the petition for me...


We therefore ask that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee revisits its work on football governance and illustrates growing problems by undertaking a short Inquiry into one particular club, Coventry City, whose owner has relocated the club from the City of Coventry to Northampton, 35 miles away. This will highlight concerns shared by football fans across the country, and the need for action.


So you are admitting this has already been carried out by the government? Not a new inquiry, but a rehash of the same old ground?

-- At worst the word ´revisit´ is mildly ambiguous, so maybe should be rewritten. However, quite clearly the intention is not to duplicate previous ineffectual efforts. A revisitation can just as easily mean an enhancement, improvement or a complete readdressing.

Considering how much these things cost, are you honestly expecting the government to do this?

-- That´s really not for us to decide or dictate, is it? They might do it, they might not. We won´t know will we get the 100k.

I personally cannot see any benefit in doing this whatsoever, I certainly do not see the benefit of spending millions of pounds of taxpayers money on a repeat of an inquiry?

-- Again you are making sceptical assumptions. You don´t know, and a duplication of previous work is not the aim, and you know it


However, as a Coventry fan the bottom line is the petition might achieve something. At best it might well lead to parliamentary debate, at worst it will have made 1000´s more people aware of our cause. I figure by taking 15 seconds out of your time you can contribute to a potential positive change for the cause, no matter how slim the likelihood of success. You don´t stand to lose a thing by signing it. Nothing. Zilch. Nada.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

sbvet and Nick - wording can't be changed. It's up to each individual to decide whether to sign or not. Nearly 12k have signed and some people I've asked have said no. It's all about choice and people having different views - don't see what the problem is. If I knew whether it will reach 100k or not I would be using my ability to see the future and win the lottery not messing about with a petition. This could run for a year so claiming now it will succeed/fail is a little premature. At the very least it keeps the ccfc mess in the spotlight, and ultimately it might lead to an Independent inquiry or other unforeseen positives might arise. Any idea I've ever proposed on here has had lots of people saying it will fail - why/when at Arsenal being the most recent example. If we do nothing, nothing will change but if you try you at least stand a chance.

sbvet - would welcome knowing your expertise in this field. I've been an expert witness at a select committee and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life - I'd hate to be the object of their inquiry!

Nick - has L been back to you about your kind offer?

Both - on Sat I had a pre match drink with someone I know who goes to sixfields. We can disagree without falling out and it's always good to get different viewpoints. So would be really good if you come along on the 26th.

 

[Nick]

sbvet and Nick - wording can't be changed. It's up to each individual to decide whether to sign or not. Nearly 12k have signed and some people I've asked have said no. It's all about choice and people having different views - don't see what the problem is. If I knew whether it will reach 100k or not I would be using my ability to see the future and win the lottery not messing about with a petition. This could run for a year so claiming now it will succeed/fail is a little premature. At the very least it keeps the ccfc mess in the spotlight, and ultimately it might lead to an Independent inquiry or other unforeseen positives might arise. Any idea I've ever proposed on here has had lots of people saying it will fail - why/when at Arsenal being the most recent example. If we do nothing, nothing will change but if you try you at least stand a chance.

sbvet - would welcome knowing your expertise in this field. I've been an expert witness at a select committee and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life - I'd hate to be the object of their inquiry!

Nick - has L been back to you about your kind offer?

Both - on Sat I had a pre match drink with someone I know who goes to sixfields. We can disagree without falling out and it's always good to get different viewpoints. So would be really good if you come along on the 26th.

My point was just being get a list of reasons why people say no and see if they can be addressed rather than leaving it as people will if they want to. If there is something stopping people you asking directly then this may be stopping a lot more others who see the link, don't bother signing and don't comment.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

Fair point, Nick. It's just a question of priorities. At the moment getting it off the ground is taking all my available time. Maybe a new thread could be started on here asking for reasons for not signing? Feedback I've had so far is the list is: it won't reach 100k, even if it does it won't achieve anything, disagree with the wording, someone on Saturday said something that sounded like 'stunt' but I might have misheard

 

[sbvet]

sbvet and Nick - wording can't be changed. It's up to each individual to decide whether to sign or not. Nearly 12k have signed and some people I've asked have said no. It's all about choice and people having different views - don't see what the problem is. If I knew whether it will reach 100k or not I would be using my ability to see the future and win the lottery not messing about with a petition. This could run for a year so claiming now it will succeed/fail is a little premature. At the very least it keeps the ccfc mess in the spotlight, and ultimately it might lead to an Independent inquiry or other unforeseen positives might arise. Any idea I've ever proposed on here has had lots of people saying it will fail - why/when at Arsenal being the most recent example. If we do nothing, nothing will change but if you try you at least stand a chance.

sbvet - would welcome knowing your expertise in this field. I've been an expert witness at a select committee and it was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life - I'd hate to be the object of their inquiry!

Nick - has L been back to you about your kind offer?

Both - on Sat I had a pre match drink with someone I know who goes to sixfields. We can disagree without falling out and it's always good to get different viewpoints. So would be really good if you come along on the 26th.

I never suggested wording could be changed did I? I am not playing devil's advocate - be under no illusion - I am genuinely unsure about this petition. As for my experiences, well l have been grilled one on one by the then minister of state for the armed forces Nicholas Soames (he was kind enough to get a round in for my section afterwards). I have had to give presentations to the head of technical development for GEC Marconi, and Ferranti (who I can assure you are far more scary than any politicians I have met!) I chaired countless development meetings with directors of radar manufacturers throughout the world. I also have consulted on numerous campaigns outside (paid and voluntary) - I could go on, but I'm not here to spout my CV!

As for sceptical defeatism - I do not appreciate that kind of language. I do not give in when it comes to a cause I am passionate about. Jumping down the throat of people who disagree or who dare to question your reasoning is a definite sure fire way to make people back away! I thought the whole point of petitions was to try and win people over with your argument, not just try to browbeat and intimidate !

Whilst I appreciate it might have been scary for you Michael, sisu play hard ball - they do tough meetings for a living! You cannot assume they would be anywhere near as terrified of these things as you are!

Sky blue dog, I went out of my way to avoid any kind of offensive commentary, all you have done is attack attack attack! Michael if you are serious about getting everyone on board you have to let those helping know it is unacceptable to jump down people's throats if they have concerns! Do that at in town it may well go down a very dangerous road!

Point is, I assume you realised from the get go, just relying on the football community, it is highly unlikely to get even close to the numbers you are looking for. Certainly since beginning I hope you have realised this! So when you move inevitably move away from the football "family" at some point you must try and win people over with the strength of your argument pure and simple.

Inviting people for a drink, calling them sceptical or defeatist, implying they aren't true fans. If this were the way to run a campaign, why do politicians try and be all things to all people?

I am really disappointed with the level of naivety being shown in response to my questions. Being realistic is not defeatism. Did I say you cannot achieve your goal? I said they way some are behaving towards me will ensure you fail! I have tried everything to give an opportunity to practice winning people over to your side if the argument! Clearly thanks to Dog's aggressive response you just want yes men agreeing it is a wonderful idea and everything in the garden is rosy.

Failure to prepare is preparing to fail. I have asked if straight out questions if you fully understand that petitions aren't automatic, and if you understand fully the process involved. Not everyone has or indeed wants to read all the minute detail for a petition. I have, and I certainly would have expected someone trying to run a petition to have as well.

Just saying anyone can read FAQ's is quite frankly a cop out Dog.

Thing is once a campaign starts it cannot be re run. If your obective requires 100 and by aggressive responses / lack of understanding you fail to achieve your goal, then I would suggest you have a great deal to lose! Because you cannot re-run this campaign and a golden opportunity will have been lost - for the sake of refusing to answer some pretty basic questions!

I want sisu out, there are ways to ensure this, but say having a petition that reaches 60k will achieve nothing will it!

 

[Nick]

Fair point, Nick. It's just a question of priorities. At the moment getting it off the ground is taking all my available time. Maybe a new thread could be started on here asking for reasons for not signing? Feedback I've had so far is the list is: it won't reach 100k, even if it does it won't achieve anything, disagree with the wording, someone on Saturday said something that sounded like 'stunt' but I might have misheard

The thing with that is maybe they could be told the process and what happens, most people probably don't understand so aren't bothered.

If it could be explained what happens if it gets to 100k in simple terms that average fan can understand.

Theres no point just asking on here why people won't sign as this is a small % of city fans.

 

[SkyBlueDog]

I never suggested wording could be changed did I? I am not playing devil's advocate - be under no illusion - I am genuinely unsure about this petition. As for my experiences, well l have been grilled one on one by the then minister of state for the armed forces Nicholas Soames (he was kind enough to get a round in for my section afterwards). I have had to give presentations to the head of technical development for GEC Marconi, and Ferranti (who I can assure you are far more scary than any politicians I have met!) I chaired countless development meetings with directors of radar manufacturers throughout the world. I also have consulted on numerous campaigns outside (paid and voluntary) - I could go on, but I'm not here to spout my CV!

As for sceptical defeatism - I do not appreciate that kind of language. I do not give in when it comes to a cause I am passionate about. Jumping down the throat of people who disagree or who dare to question your reasoning is a definite sure fire way to make people back away! I thought the whole point of petitions was to try and win people over with your argument, not just try to browbeat and intimidate !

Whilst I appreciate it might have been scary for you Michael, sisu play hard ball - they do tough meetings for a living! You cannot assume they would be anywhere near as terrified of these things as you are!

Sky blue dog, I went out of my way to avoid any kind of offensive commentary, all you have done is attack attack attack! Michael if you are serious about getting everyone on board you have to let those helping know it is unacceptable to jump down people's throats if they have concerns! Do that at in town it may well go down a very dangerous road!

Point is, I assume you realised from the get go, just relying on the football community, it is highly unlikely to get even close to the numbers you are looking for. Certainly since beginning I hope you have realised this! So when you move inevitably move away from the football "family" at some point you must try and win people over with the strength of your argument pure and simple.

Inviting people for a drink, calling them sceptical or defeatist, implying they aren't true fans. If this were the way to run a campaign, why do politicians try and be all things to all people?

I am really disappointed with the level of naivety being shown in response to my questions. Being realistic is not defeatism. Did I say you cannot achieve your goal? I said they way some are behaving towards me will ensure you fail! I have tried everything to give an opportunity to practice winning people over to your side if the argument! Clearly thanks to Dog's aggressive response you just want yes men agreeing it is a wonderful idea and everything in the garden is rosy.

Failure to prepare is preparing to fail. I have asked if straight out questions if you fully understand that petitions aren't automatic, and if you understand fully the process involved. Not everyone has or indeed wants to read all the minute detail for a petition. I have, and I certainly would have expected someone trying to run a petition to have as well.

Just saying anyone can read FAQ's is quite frankly a cop out Dog.

Thing is once a campaign starts it cannot be re run. If your obective requires 100 and by aggressive responses / lack of understanding you fail to achieve your goal, then I would suggest you have a great deal to lose! Because you cannot re-run this campaign and a golden opportunity will have been lost - for the sake of refusing to answer some pretty basic questions!

I want sisu out, there are ways to ensure this, but say having a petition that reaches 60k will achieve nothing will it!

Oh come on, i´ve hardly been aggressive or attacked. I´ve merely disagreed with some of your points, that´s all. My sceptical defeatism comment is surely no stronger than the naive optimist jab?

 

[MichaelCCFC]

I never suggested wording could be changed did I? I am not playing devil's advocate - be under no illusion - I am genuinely unsure about this petition. As for my experiences, well l have been grilled one on one by the then minister of state for the armed forces Nicholas Soames (he was kind enough to get a round in for my section afterwards). I have had to give presentations to the head of technical development for GEC Marconi, and Ferranti (who I can assure you are far more scary than any politicians I have met!) I chaired countless development meetings with directors of radar manufacturers throughout the world. I also have consulted on numerous campaigns outside (paid and voluntary) - I could go on, but I'm not here to spout my CV!

As for sceptical defeatism - I do not appreciate that kind of language. I do not give in when it comes to a cause I am passionate about. Jumping down the throat of people who disagree or who dare to question your reasoning is a definite sure fire way to make people back away! I thought the whole point of petitions was to try and win people over with your argument, not just try to browbeat and intimidate !

Whilst I appreciate it might have been scary for you Michael, sisu play hard ball - they do tough meetings for a living! You cannot assume they would be anywhere near as terrified of these things as you are!

Sky blue dog, I went out of my way to avoid any kind of offensive commentary, all you have done is attack attack attack! Michael if you are serious about getting everyone on board you have to let those helping know it is unacceptable to jump down people's throats if they have concerns! Do that at in town it may well go down a very dangerous road!

Point is, I assume you realised from the get go, just relying on the football community, it is highly unlikely to get even close to the numbers you are looking for. Certainly since beginning I hope you have realised this! So when you move inevitably move away from the football "family" at some point you must try and win people over with the strength of your argument pure and simple.

Inviting people for a drink, calling them sceptical or defeatist, implying they aren't true fans. If this were the way to run a campaign, why do politicians try and be all things to all people?

I am really disappointed with the level of naivety being shown in response to my questions. Being realistic is not defeatism. Did I say you cannot achieve your goal? I said they way some are behaving towards me will ensure you fail! I have tried everything to give an opportunity to practice winning people over to your side if the argument! Clearly thanks to Dog's aggressive response you just want yes men agreeing it is a wonderful idea and everything in the garden is rosy.

Failure to prepare is preparing to fail. I have asked if straight out questions if you fully understand that petitions aren't automatic, and if you understand fully the process involved. Not everyone has or indeed wants to read all the minute detail for a petition. I have, and I certainly would have expected someone trying to run a petition to have as well.

Just saying anyone can read FAQ's is quite frankly a cop out Dog.

Thing is once a campaign starts it cannot be re run. If your obective requires 100 and by aggressive responses / lack of understanding you fail to achieve your goal, then I would suggest you have a great deal to lose! Because you cannot re-run this campaign and a golden opportunity will have been lost - for the sake of refusing to answer some pretty basic questions!

I want sisu out, there are ways to ensure this, but say having a petition that reaches 60k will achieve nothing will it!

WM, Ginetta, Lewys, Monkey and lots of others on here - plus plenty of City fans who have never ventured on here in their lives - are being awesome in what they are achieving. To disrespect them is shocking.

 

[Grendel]

WM, Ginetta, Lewys, Monkey and lots of others on here - plus plenty of City fans who have never ventured on here in their lives - are being awesome in what they are achieving. To disrespect them is shocking.

He is not disrespecting anyone. It's an observation that you need once this is started to achieve the number. We keep being told this is a football city and a lot of people care.

If a lot do care then really a very large percentage should be achieved through our own fan base. If every one of the 32,000 attendees who went to Crewe signed and two family members its job done. The truth is its likely to plateau out as momentum drifts and the message that communicates to a wider community is apathy.

Now, whatever we think about Sunderland supporters after my adventure on their forum at the weekend, I have no doubt they would reach the target easily and quickly.

 

[Nick]

WM, Ginetta, Lewys, Monkey and lots of others on here - plus plenty of City fans who have never ventured on here in their lives - are being awesome in what they are achieving. To disrespect them is shocking.

Michael, what is being disrespectful in that post?

 

[Skyblueweeman]

He is not disrespecting anyone. It's an observation that you need once this is started to achieve the number. We keep being told this is a football city and a lot of people care.

If a lot do care then really a very large percentage should be achieved through our own fan base. If every one of the 32,000 attendees who went to Crewe signed and two family members its job done. The truth is its likely to plateau out as momentum drifts and the message that communicates to a wider community is apathy.

Now, whatever we think about Sunderland supporters after my adventure on their forum at the weekend, I have no doubt they would reach the target easily and quickly.

You're spot on Grendel...so why aren't people doing it? They don't know, they've not got access to a computer, they don't want to? It sounds simple when it's put like that. Nick...how many 'active' members on here?

WM

 

[sbvet]

Dog, I don't think you understand what I am getting at. You cannot be so sensitive about criticism! I can take a lot of abuse, point is not everyone can! Certainly anyone not particularly interested in football is going to sign a petition of you start a tirade on them!

If you want to hide your head in the sand and not see any possible faults then fine, but don't expect it to work if you do!

I can see from the responses, that those defending this petition on here will just not accept any kind of criticism. I can think of a great many reasons why people wouldn't want to sign.....

1) Not interested in football
2) Think it is a waste of time
3) Fundamentally disagree with the premise
4) Think it is a stunt
5) Government money could be spent better
6) The petition itself says it has already been investigated - why go over old ground and it did no good last time
7) Those that are driving this are trying to intimidate / attack / belittle
8) People don't believe ePetitions have any effect
9) Don't understand what you are actually asking for
10) It takes a far bit more than just 15 seconds - you have to respond to a confirmation e-maill
11) Don't trust the government with storing address details securely (a valid concern considering their track record on losing data!)
12) It singles out CCFC - what about the other clubs? Why are CCFC so special?

That is just off the top of my head!

There is a great deal of difference between disagreement, and implying I am not a true fan if I do not sign!

I'm sure you could answer all of these, but up until now no one has faced up to these questions so far have they!

Maybe I am a unicorn. Maybe I am the only one in coventry who would like to know what I am signing before I sign. I can only go on from what I have experience of. As a rule the simpler the message, and the greater the cause, the more likely you are to support that campaign!

For example, it is far easier to get people sign a petition to increase cancer awareness than it would be to preventing a pond housing a family of Otters would be! Like it or not A petition asking for a second inquiry is never going to achieve as much support as say asking the government to stop girls getting physically mutilated (an example of one of the rare successes!)

I am not saying there isn't valid concerns, and not saying it is totally impossible (there is always a possibility of success), but I am trying to pour some realism on affairs. Asking for a second inquiry is always going to be a harder sell than some of the causes out there.

I would strongly suggest though that going on the defensive in an aggressive manner may seem reasonable to you, and may be the norm on a football forum, but there are only so many signatures you will get this way. When you go in the big bad world, people will either ignore you, or bite back just as aggressively. Heed my words, don't heed my words. But I have seen campaigns succeed with less worthy causes, and more worthy fail.

It's your choice

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Dog, I don't think you understand what I am getting at. You cannot be so sensitive about criticism! I can take a lot of abuse, point is not everyone can! Certainly anyone not particularly interested in football is going to sign a petition of you start a tirade on them!

If you want to hide your head in the sand and not see any possible faults then fine, but don't expect it to work if you do!

I can see from the responses, that those defending this petition on here will just not accept any kind of criticism. I can think of a great many reasons why people wouldn't want to sign.....

1) Not interested in football
2) Think it is a waste of time
3) Fundamentally disagree with the premise
4) Think it is a stunt
5) Government money could be spent better
6) The petition itself says it has already been investigated - why go over old ground and it did no good last time
7) Those that are driving this are trying to intimidate / attack / belittle
8) People don't believe ePetitions have any effect
9) Don't understand what you are actually asking for
10) It takes a far bit more than just 15 seconds - you have to respond to a confirmation e-maill
11) Don't trust the government with storing address details securely (a valid concern considering their track record on losing data!)
12) It singles out CCFC - what about the other clubs? Why are CCFC so special?

That is just off the top of my head!

There is a great deal of difference between disagreement, and implying I am not a true fan if I do not sign!

I'm sure you could answer all of these, but up until now no one has faced up to these questions so far have they!

Maybe I am a unicorn. Maybe I am the only one in coventry who would like to know what I am signing before I sign. I can only go on from what I have experience of. As a rule the simpler the message, and the greater the cause, the more likely you are to support that campaign!

For example, it is far easier to get people sign a petition to increase cancer awareness than it would be to preventing a pond housing a family of Otters would be! Like it or not A petition asking for a second inquiry is never going to achieve as much support as say asking the government to stop girls getting physically mutilated (an example of one of the rare successes!)

I am not saying there isn't valid concerns, and not saying it is totally impossible (there is always a possibility of success), but I am trying to pour some realism on affairs. Asking for a second inquiry is always going to be a harder sell than some of the causes out there.

I would strongly suggest though that going on the defensive in an aggressive manner may seem reasonable to you, and may be the norm on a football forum, but there are only so many signatures you will get this way. When you go in the big bad world, people will either ignore you, or bite back just as aggressively. Heed my words, don't heed my words. But I have seen campaigns succeed with less worthy causes, and more worthy fail.

It's your choice

See my reply to you that I wrote this morning about why I signed it. If it doesn't strike a chord fair then ok, fair enough, leave it and move on.

Many across the football community are interested in football, don't think it's a waste of time, agree with the premise, know it's not a stunt, probably agree that govt money could be better spent elsewhere but wish to pursue something they're passionate about, wish to bring more focus to it this time round with something that we've not actually done before, believe the e-petition will have an effect (10 that hit 100k were debated in the House of Commons at least, between 2010-12), do understand what we're asking for, are willing to commit 60 seconds of their time (I agree it's not 15 secs) and realise that CCFC might be the example being used, but could have further reaching consequences for their club in the future. I do agree about the Govt data bit though...hopefully they'll have tightened up a bit since the previous lapses.

WM

 

[SkyBlueDog]

Dog, I don't think you understand what I am getting at. You cannot be so sensitive about criticism! I can take a lot of abuse, point is not everyone can! Certainly anyone not particularly interested in football is going to sign a petition of you start a tirade on them!


If you want to hide your head in the sand and not see any possible faults then fine, but don't expect it to work if you do!


I can see from the responses, that those defending this petition on here will just not accept any kind of criticism. I can think of a great many reasons why people wouldn't want to sign.....


1) Not interested in football
2) Think it is a waste of time
3) Fundamentally disagree with the premise
4) Think it is a stunt
5) Government money could be spent better
6) The petition itself says it has already been investigated - why go over old ground and it did no good last time
7) Those that are driving this are trying to intimidate / attack / belittle
8) People don't believe ePetitions have any effect
9) Don't understand what you are actually asking for
10) It takes a far bit more than just 15 seconds - you have to respond to a confirmation e-maill
11) Don't trust the government with storing address details securely (a valid concern considering their track record on losing data!)
12) It singles out CCFC - what about the other clubs? Why are CCFC so special?


That is just off the top of my head!


There is a great deal of difference between disagreement, and implying I am not a true fan if I do not sign!


I'm sure you could answer all of these, but up until now no one has faced up to these questions so far have they!


Maybe I am a unicorn. Maybe I am the only one in coventry who would like to know what I am signing before I sign. I can only go on from what I have experience of. As a rule the simpler the message, and the greater the cause, the more likely you are to support that campaign!


For example, it is far easier to get people sign a petition to increase cancer awareness than it would be to preventing a pond housing a family of Otters would be! Like it or not A petition asking for a second inquiry is never going to achieve as much support as say asking the government to stop girls getting physically mutilated (an example of one of the rare successes!)


I am not saying there isn't valid concerns, and not saying it is totally impossible (there is always a possibility of success), but I am trying to pour some realism on affairs. Asking for a second inquiry is always going to be a harder sell than some of the causes out there.


I would strongly suggest though that going on the defensive in an aggressive manner may seem reasonable to you, and may be the norm on a football forum, but there are only so many signatures you will get this way. When you go in the big bad world, people will either ignore you, or bite back just as aggressively. Heed my words, don't heed my words. But I have seen campaigns succeed with less worthy causes, and more worthy fail.


It's your choice

I am not sure why you are claiming 1. I am the one being so sensitive and 2. why I am attacking you. I am doing neither. I´m merely responding to each of your points in turn with my own point of view. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.


Why is it okay for you to have your sceptical/realist point of view, and for me not to have my ´naive optimist´point of view? It´s chalk and cheese, but I´m in no way attacking you


I don´t disagree with your points 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 11 and 12. We are not going to win over everyone. But I´m sure there are more than enough people out there who these don´t apply to to fulfill the 100k target.


6 - It´s ambiguous, but here I think you are playing devil´s advocate. You know that isn´t the aim. And if people raise the same point I guess clarification will need to be given.
7 - I don´t see any evidence of this at all. I certainly have not done any of those things, just responding to your points
10 - Oh come on, you know what I mean. 15 seconds, 30 second what´s the difference?


So there seems to be two parts to your argument:


Firstly, you don´t believe the petition will attract the number of required signatories (and you have outlined why)? That´s fine and you are entirely entitled to that opinion, but why do you feel the need to quash others people´s optimism? Surely the momentum of snowballing positivity is a good thing and will only help drive up signings? What are you afraid of? In my humble opinion, I think there is a pool of potential signatories that would be willing to sign, outside of the criteria you set out above, that will be happy to sign. The problem is merely a question of marketing and logistics


Secondly, you don´t believe if/once the 100k signatories are signed and sealed, that there will be anything worthwhile to come out of this? You might be right, but given there is a chance, no matter how slim, why on earth wouldn´t you take the time to sign it?


I´ve listened to what you´ve got to say, and i´ve responded to your points in turn (something you haven´t reciprocated, I might add), at least to the best of my ability, and whilst I agree some of the realism you are spreading is valid, I don´t agree with your general stance and am struggling to understand what benefit there is to trying to piss negativity/realism all over Michael and co´s bonfire (shit metaphor). You make some valid points, but, I´m sorry, it is you who is overly sensitive here. No one has insulted you, no-one has attacked you, they´ve just disagreed, for the most part, with you.

 

[MichaelCCFC]

sbvet joined this forum just after petition launched, did a couple of bland posts then focuses on this thread with incredibly long posts and a series of classic wum tactics. i regularly struggle with the anonymity on here - strikes me as base cowardice - so tell us who you are sbv and I'll answer you point by point. Although might struggle with the unicorn angle!

 

[Nick]

sbvet joined this forum just after petition launched, did a couple of bland posts then focuses on this thread with incredibly long posts and a series of classic wum tactics. i regularly struggle with the anonymity on here - strikes me as base cowardice - so tell us who you are sbv and I'll answer you point by point. Although might struggle with the unicorn angle!

Michael, why would you need to know who he is? I don't understand. So he is a coward? If he was wumming and generally just being a menace he would have been banned but he looks to be asking genuine questions.

 

[sbvet]

That is an outrageous statement Michael - I demand you apologise unreservedly for that! Did I call you a coward, or skyblueweeman or SBDOG ?

Did you not specifically ask for a thread to raise reasons why people aren't signing?

Yet when you were given possible reasons, you become outrageously aggressive (or are you going to say calling someone a coward is being reasonable)?

I have asked a fairly fundamental question - Did you understand raising a petition is no guarantee of getting a debate? I also asked if not do you now. I also feel it is fair comment that you make people aware that it is not guaranteed.

I mean even in this conversation people are assuming that it is automatic. Would they be so gung ho if they realised it was not automatic. You are out of order to respond in such a childish manner. I paid you common courtesy, and have not been treated equally.

I understand nobody likes their baby being criticised, but at some point you are going to have to defend your corner. First it was let's have a pint now you are calling me a coward!

What is apparent is that all you want is positive affirmation that you are doing everything 100% perfectly. Sadly I was brought up reading something before I sign. If you want to try again - this time pay me the same courtesy you expect, or you can continue to hide your head in the sand.

Unicorn meant lone voice.

Quite frankly i am staggered you claim to be all encompassing, yet you have refused to answer fundamental questions.

I just have to ask why?

 

[MichaelCCFC]

That is an outrageous statement Michael - I demand you apologise unreservedly for that! Did I call you a coward, or skyblueweeman or SBDOG ?

Did you not specifically ask for a thread to raise reasons why people aren't signing?

Yet when you were given possible reasons, you become outrageously aggressive (or are you going to say calling someone a coward is being reasonable)?

I have asked a fairly fundamental question - Did you understand raising a petition is no guarantee of getting a debate? I also asked if not do you now. I also feel it is fair comment that you make people aware that it is not guaranteed.

I mean even in this conversation people are assuming that it is automatic. Would they be so gung ho if they realised it was not automatic. You are out of order to respond in such a childish manner. I paid you common courtesy, and have not been treated equally.

I understand nobody likes their baby being criticised, but at some point you are going to have to defend your corner. First it was let's have a pint now you are calling me a coward!

What is apparent is that all you want is positive affirmation that you are doing everything 100% perfectly. Sadly I was brought up reading something before I sign. If you want to try again - this time pay me the same courtesy you expect, or you can continue to hide your head in the sand.

Unicorn meant lone voice.

Quite frankly i am staggered you claim to be all encompassing, yet you have refused to answer fundamental questions.

I just have to ask why?

Not only will I apologise for offence caused but will not merely invite you along on the 26th but will even buy you a pint and look forward to the opportunity of discussing this properly in person.


And another well done to all those promoting the epetition - just short of 12,300 (an eighth of the way in 10 days) and consistently trending at number 3.

 

[sbvet]

Not only will I apologise for offence caused but will not merely invite you along on the 26th but will even buy you a pint and look forward to the opportunity of discussing this properly in person.


And another well done to all those promoting the epetition - just short of 12,300 (an eighth of the way in 10 days) and consistently trending at number 3.

Michael I understand this is a highly emotive subject for you. But this is what I have been trying to tell you. To get over the line, you need to be able to stand back. I assume you have campaigned on streets, so I'm sure you are aware lots of people just don't want to be bothered by petitions. Poor campaigns can succeed, good campaigns can fail.

When I have aided in campaigns (family & friends are involved in amnesty international), you have to understand not everyone feels as strongly about your cause as you do! You cannot buy 90k a drink (i'm assuming).

Just remember when campaigning on streets, you need to convince in 30 secs to a minute. People can be very reluctant to give personal details to strangers, and people will say yes to your face and not act. But of course people may react differently to your campaign. I've seen what happens first hand, and thought a reality check might help.

I shall leave it to you whether you ignore my experience or not!

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

sbvet,

The points you've made have been addressed by Michael and others. Michael has even offered to meet up for a drink so you can offer your experience.

Clearly the petition blurb isn't going to give a long and tedious explanation as to why the parliamentary process means their signature might not be effective.

If you've nothing else to offer then could you leave us to waste our time on it please?

 

[Skyblueweeman]

sbvet,

The points you've made have been addressed by Michael and others. Michael has even offered to meet up for a drink so you can offer your experience.

Clearly the petition blurb isn't going to give a long and tedious explanation as to why the parliamentary process means their signature might not be effective.

If you've nothing else to offer then could you leave us to waste our time on it please?

Love it...just love it!

 

[Nick]

sbvet,

The points you've made have been addressed by Michael and others. Michael has even offered to meet up for a drink so you can offer your experience.

Clearly the petition blurb isn't going to give a long and tedious explanation as to why the parliamentary process means their signature might not be effective.

If you've nothing else to offer then could you leave us to waste our time on it please?

Where have all the points addressed?

He does have some good constructive views input from what i have read so can't see the hostility?

Just like the other day when I raised some points and got called names

 

[sbvet]

Where have all the points addressed?

He does have some good constructive views input from what i have read so can't see the hostility?

Just like the other day when I raised some points and got called names

That's right Nick I don't expect everyone to agree, and if you can believe all the concerns are BS - again fine. All I am saying is that when you delve out of the ardent petition defenders, you then start having to convince undecided.

And offering a drink is a fine gesture, but you cannot physically have a drink with 90k people can you?

 

[Grendel]

sbvet,

The points you've made have been addressed by Michael and others. Michael has even offered to meet up for a drink so you can offer your experience.

Clearly the petition blurb isn't going to give a long and tedious explanation as to why the parliamentary process means their signature might not be effective.

If you've nothing else to offer then could you leave us to waste our time on it please?

What! He raises some intelligent points - Michael can't deal with them and then you step in. Your the Italian panther division aren't you? Crawling up ransons arse when he was popular and now firmly in bed with PWKH. At least this guy has an opinion of his own unlike you.

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

Where have all the points addressed?

Here:

I don´t disagree with your points 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 11 and 12. We are not going to win over everyone. But I´m sure there are more than enough people out there who these don´t apply to to fulfill the 100k target.


6 - It´s ambiguous, but here I think you are playing devil´s advocate. You know that isn´t the aim. And if people raise the same point I guess clarification will need to be given.
7 - I don´t see any evidence of this at all. I certainly have not done any of those things, just responding to your points
10 - Oh come on, you know what I mean. 15 seconds, 30 second what´s the difference?


So there seems to be two parts to your argument:


Firstly, you don´t believe the petition will attract the number of required signatories (and you have outlined why)? That´s fine and you are entirely entitled to that opinion, but why do you feel the need to quash others people´s optimism? Surely the momentum of snowballing positivity is a good thing and will only help drive up signings? What are you afraid of? In my humble opinion, I think there is a pool of potential signatories that would be willing to sign, outside of the criteria you set out above, that will be happy to sign. The problem is merely a question of marketing and logistics


Secondly, you don´t believe if/once the 100k signatories are signed and sealed, that there will be anything worthwhile to come out of this? You might be right, but given there is a chance, no matter how slim, why on earth wouldn´t you take the time to sign it?


I´ve listened to what you´ve got to say, and i´ve responded to your points in turn (something you haven´t reciprocated, I might add), at least to the best of my ability, and whilst I agree some of the realism you are spreading is valid, I don´t agree with your general stance and am struggling to understand what benefit there is to trying to piss negativity/realism all over Michael and co´s bonfire (shit metaphor). You make some valid points, but, I´m sorry, it is you who is overly sensitive here. No one has insulted you, no-one has attacked you, they´ve just disagreed, for the most part, with you.

If there are any points not addressed here I'm sure sbvet will let us know.

From what I've seen all of his posts are a rehash of the previous ones and none make any suggestions or give any positive input so what's the point?

 

[Nick]

What! He raises some intelligent points - Michael can't deal with them and then you step in. Your the Italian panther division aren't you? Crawling up ransons arse when he was popular and now firmly in bed with PWKH. At least this guy has an opinion of his own unlike you.

Can we not turn it into personal bickering?

 

[dadgad]

Where have all the points addressed?

s

Oh dear! Massive fail.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

The sad thing is, as far as I can see sbvet wants this petition to succeed(!)

He's right, blind faith will get so far, but after that you have to defend a position to get further. Having a go at him for not having much of a post count won't do that really, will it!

 

[MichaelCCFC]

What! He raises some intelligent points - Michael can't deal with them and then you step in. Your the Italian panther division aren't you? Crawling up ransons arse when he was popular and now firmly in bed with PWKH. At least this guy has an opinion of his own unlike you.

Yes, it's people who like the petition idea who are aggressive, insulting, hostile etc etc. lol!

 

[MichaelCCFC]

I'm off out for the evening, so as everyone wants the petition to succeed here's your chance to offer positive, specific, feasible ideas. Leafleting in town has been knocked on the head because you need Public Liability insurance. I have two ideas for what to do instead but other suggestions will be very welcome. thx

 

[sbvet]

The sad thing is, as far as I can see sbvet wants this petition to succeed(!)

He's right, blind faith will get so far, but after that you have to defend a position to get further. Having a go at him for not having much of a post count won't do that really, will it!

That's exactly right NW - All I was asking was to help me get round signing the petition! I was in two minds, I had doubts to the wording, and the feasability, so just thought I would go to the horse's mouth as it were to sway me over to their point of view!

Instead all I get is if I don't sign I'm not a true supporter, or I'm a coward or I'm a WUM! I was half way inclined, with the stuff that's been thrown at me, I have been almost swayed 100% in the other direction!

I offered practical experience - I get chewed out. That's fine - you can learn from your own mistakes. Thing is I still believe there are those who think that they will be able to maintain the numbers they have been for just under a fortnight. Thing is they have already contacted nearly all of the football forums, the Papers have given far more publicity than could have been reasonably expected. The TV aren't going to dwell on the campaign (I will be highly surprised if they get a mention again, unless something extraordinary happens).

So you are left with friends & families, word of mouth, or spending money on advertising! If you choose the later you have to seriously consider if you expect to achieve the final result. Remember you aren't going to be able to rely on goodwill of papers or radio for ever! Street campaigns will only add a tiny amount to the cause.

As with all campaigns, there are several phases. The first phase everything is all spangly and new. Its fresh in the mind and everyone is up for it. Three weeks down the road, and with little or no free publicity, you then have to make a decision. Advertise or word of mouth. Advertising can cost many thousands of pounds.

Handing leaflets at the Notts County match hasn't boosted the rate of signatures by any great degree. You yourselves have said you need 50k locally. That means a charm offensive of the populus. Whilst inviting a personal meeting is fine for one to one, or to get people to volunteer, or just to build friendships, but it is irrelevant to the petition!

You cannot shout down the public and expect them to sign! You need a co-ordinated, and simple message. Right now that simply does not exist. With my background, before any campaign, we make a long long list of things wrong with the campaign. That way, we are able to handle pretty much any criticism or confusion that may arise.

You have to be objective. You need to be able to stand back. If you can't and the numbers dry up, it could be utterly soul destroying! And as you are finding being so close you are losing sight possibly of the bigger picture.

As I see it, 100k is merely a means to an end. Your first objective is to get those 100k. Even the slavery abolitionists had to bite their lip to get the slavery amendment through. To run a petiton, you need to stop acting as a fan, and start acting as a politician,

Otherwise what will happen is you will get sucked into just asking mates and their families to sign, and when the other forums dry up (as they wont get the threads like this one) then the game will be up!

And surely you would be gutted to get say 45k football fans, and the petition joins the pile of failed and closed.

Just a thought!

 

[Bluegloucester]

I'm off out for the evening, so as everyone wants the petition to succeed here's your chance to offer positive, specific, feasible ideas. Leafleting in town has been knocked on the head because you need Public Liability insurance. I have two ideas for what to do instead but other suggestions will be very welcome. thx

Michael, cud you ask the CET to help with the leafletting. Set up a stall with iPads so people can register epetition on the spot. Just a thought....

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Out of interest, public liability insurance for what?