Non AMP
Sky Blues Talk
  • Home
  • Forums
  • General Discussion
  • Off Topic Chat
This is a mobile optimized page that loads fast, if you want to load the real page, click this text.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (12 Viewers)

  • Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
  • Start date Jun 8, 2016
Forums New posts

As of right now, how are thinking of voting? In or out

  • Remain

    Votes: 23 37.1%
  • Leave

    Votes: 35 56.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Not registered or not intention to vote

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Total voters
    62
  • Poll closed Jun 15, 2016.
Prev
  • 1
  • …
  • 844
  • 845
  • 846
  • 847
  • 848
  • …
  • 1484
Next
First Prev 846 of 1484 Next Last
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,576
Grendel said:
So it’s not nationalised then?
Click to expand...

Translate my Wikipedia link which explains how the law was changed to allow competitors. We don’t have anything like the competition absinthe UK and regional governments are involved.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,577
Grendel said:
So it’s not nationalised then?
Click to expand...

The idea is to sell the Bundesbahn, but it needs a tremendous amount of investment.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,578
Grendel said:
So it’s not nationalised then?
Click to expand...

It belongs to the government. But limited competition is allowed.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,579
martcov said:
It belongs to the government. But limited competition is allowed.
Click to expand...

It’s allowed to prevent monopoly Eu legislation being breached I assume?

And when you say it you mean the railway lines I assume not the movement of customers
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,580
Grendel said:
So nationalisation can be done without EU consent? Really? I disagree. The Eu I think had significant input in the bank nationalisation and took several attempts at negotiation with the Eu before a solution was agreed.

I’m sure Martcov will correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that several private companies operate in Germany don’t they?

The last paragraph is hilarious - after all if the public are not informed they cannot have full blown nationalisation programmes without the EU consent they need to know this don’t they or they are as ignorant as those who think the Turks are coming aren’t they?
Click to expand...

Yes, because the EU cannot stop Parliament from passing legislation. The EU says nothing about the NHS and the UK's nationalised healthcare. Linking this point to your

We've voted to leave the EU, so why are you concerned about how people view nationalisation and EU membership? As things stand, it's irrelevant because we're leaving the EU, so the policies would be enacted in a post-Brexit Britain.

Whether we stay in the EU or not, that doesn't detract from the fact that the public is generally in favour of nationalisation when polled. The 2017 Labour manifesto offered this and as they're generally popular (railways is even popular among Tory voters) policies, people voted for that. Labour didn't close a 20-odd point gap in the polls to 3 points by a miracle and certainly, their policies would've been a factor.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,581
Sky Blue Pete said:
The easiest negotiations in history wasn’t it Liam? Wanker
Liam Fox: EU trade deal after Brexit should be 'easiest in history' to get
Click to expand...

Project fear.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,582
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Yes, because the EU cannot stop Parliament from passing legislation. The EU says nothing about the NHS and the UK's nationalised healthcare. Linking this point to your

We've voted to leave the EU, so why are you concerned about how people view nationalisation and EU membership? As things stand, it's irrelevant because we're leaving the EU, so the policies would be enacted in a post-Brexit Britain.

Whether we stay in the EU or not, that doesn't detract from the fact that the public is generally in favour of nationalisation when polled. The 2017 Labour manifesto offered this and as they're generally popular (railways is even popular among Tory voters) policies, people voted for that. Labour didn't close a 20-odd point gap in the polls to 3 points by a miracle and certainly, their policies would've been a factor.
Click to expand...

So we can implement legislation allowing the death penalty?
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,583
Grendel said:
So we can implement legislation allowing the death penalty?
Click to expand...

What part of Parliament can pass any legislation it wants are you not getting?

In short, yes. Would there be implications for doing that? Probably. It’s a nonsense argument because it’s not being proposed by anyone serious in any major party.
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,584
Grendel said:
So we can implement legislation allowing the death penalty?
Click to expand...

Yes, perhaps we can try and emulate that wonderful country of Belarus and be the only countries in Europe with the death penalty.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete and Mucca Mad Boys

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,585
Renationalising Britain's railways – EU law not a barrier

An interesting article on the subject of rail nationalisation in the EU. The Irony is the driving factor behind the EU not favouring although clearly not blocking nationalisation of railways is apparently the British model of taking the railways out of nationalisation and into privatisation. Still, we have no influence on the EU. Apparently.
 
Reactions: martcov, Sick Boy and Mucca Mad Boys

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,586
martcov said:
It belongs to the government. But limited competition is allowed.
Click to expand...

I sense another Roman Empire/Holy Roman Empire moment brewing.
 
Reactions: martcov

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,587
Sick Boy said:
Yes, perhaps we can try and emulate that wonderful country of Belarus and be the only countries in Europe with the death penalty.
Click to expand...
Does the Isle of Man count? I believe they still have the death penalty.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,588
skybluetony176 said:
Does the Isle of Man count? I believe they still have the death penalty.
Click to expand...

Abolished in 1993.
 
Reactions: skybluetony176
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,589
Grendel said:
So we can implement legislation allowing the death penalty?
Click to expand...

No, but we can now leave the ECHR without being the odd one out in the EU. Proud?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,590
martcov said:
No, but we can now leave the ECHR without being the odd one out in the EU. Proud?
Click to expand...

Not sure why we’d reinstate something we abolished long before we joined the EU anyway.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,591
skybluetony176 said:
Not sure why we’d reinstate something we abolished long before we joined the EU anyway.
Click to expand...

The European Court of Human Rights. That is what May is threatening to do away with.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,592
skybluetony176 said:
Not sure why we’d reinstate something we abolished long before we joined the EU anyway.
Click to expand...

Our membership of.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,593
Captain Dart said:
Give an example of one lie.
Click to expand...

'He won't stand up against Russia'

'He won't stand up against fascists in Syria'

Vintage Tory tactic of spouting bullshit in a posh accent with emphatic mannerisms and idiots swallow it gleefully. In case you were in any doubt of what they think of you:

 
Reactions: Sick Boy
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,594
Grendel said:
It’s allowed to prevent monopoly Eu legislation being breached I assume?

And when you say it you mean the railway lines I assume not the movement of customers
Click to expand...

Metronom as an example, has it’s own trains. Older. I have traveled with it.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,595
Mucca Mad Boys said:
What part of Parliament can pass any legislation it wants are you not getting?

In short, yes. Would there be implications for doing that? Probably. It’s a nonsense argument because it’s not being proposed by anyone serious in any major party.
Click to expand...

No - what you are doing is throwing red herrings out that Parliament can pass legislation but as you know are not allowed to enforce it without contrevining EU legislation

The human rights act prevents the death penalty and the anti monopoly legislation prevents nationalisation
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,596
Grendel said:
No - what you are doing is throwing red herrings out that Parliament can pass legislation but as you know are not allowed to enforce it without contrevining EU legislation

The human rights act prevents the death penalty and the anti monopoly legislation prevents nationalisation
Click to expand...

Labour Leavers’ claims that EU blocks state takeovers are rejected by experts
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,597
martcov said:
Labour Leavers’ claims that EU blocks state takeovers are rejected by experts
Click to expand...

Yep. Another Roman Empire moment.
 
Reactions: martcov

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,598
Mucca Mad Boys said:
I’m not without biases, no one is completely free from that. Public opinion regularly polls in favour of higher taxation on the highest earners and is generally in favour of nationalising the railways (even among Tory voters) and utilities. Objectively, they are popular policies among part of the electorate.



Nationalisation vs privatisation: the public view | YouGov
Click to expand...
Thanks all the old dear is recovering.

I would be happy to pay more tax although I think I pay enough already..... as long as it goes where it is needed and not in the pockets of the rich.

YouGov? Last week it was good to quote. Yesterday it was biased. But already it is good to quote again. YouGov is either biased or it isn't. Which one is it?
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete and martcov

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,599
martcov said:
Labour Leavers’ claims that EU blocks state takeovers are rejected by experts
Click to expand...

Yes that’s a predictable link which I’ve read and is largely contridicted by Professor Nicol.

Your claim to be the EU expert - rather than a biased opinion piece offer your interpretation of EU rules
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,600
Grendel said:
No - what you are doing is throwing red herrings out that Parliament can pass legislation but as you know are not allowed to enforce it without contrevining EU legislation

The human rights act prevents the death penalty and the anti monopoly legislation prevents nationalisation
Click to expand...

You asked if Parliament could do that, I answered. The Human Rights Act can be repealed by Parliament if there was a majority. In fact, that’s what the Government plans to do post-Brexit and pass our own British Bill of Rights. You’ve unknowingly just proven my point.

You talk of red herrings, but come up with your own red herring of reintroducing the death penalty. No major party in UK politics is arguing for its reintroduction, so its a moot point designed to redirect the debate from a rational place.

The bottom line is this, anything that passes through Parliament with a majority becomes law in the UK. Parliament is the highest court in this land and our laws, by definition would supersede the EU’s law. Parliament has chosen to cede sovereignty to the EU and can take it back if we wanted too — invoking Article 50 proves this. Does the EU have a mechanism whereby that institution checks our legislation before it passes? No. Therefore, can it stop legislation being passed? No. The EU can’t physically stop the UK passing legislation, whatever the legislative agenda of the Government of the day.

In practice, the EU hasn’t done much to hampered Governments who have wished to renationalise something — France and Germany have nationalised railways! The only example you can practically point to is Greece, where the EU refused to let the Government renationalise sectors of the economy. The difference? The Greeks were being bailed out by the EU and that was one of the conditions of that bailout. The Greeks didn’t necessarily have to take on the conditions of that bailout — it was ultimately their choice. This example definitely pushed me flirt with the idea of a Lexit but ultimately I rejected that.

Besides, to use the example of the NHS. It’s a nationalised health system but it hasn’t banned private healthcare. Same with Royal Mail, it hasn’t banned other Mail companies. It’s a mixed economy.

The following have been under national control whilst we’ve been part of the EU:
- railway infrastructure
- Royal Mail — our own government chose to privatise that
- NHS

Can we nationalise industries within the EU? Yes.
 
Reactions: martcov

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,601
Mucca Mad Boys said:
You asked if Parliament could do that, I answered. The Human Rights Act can be repealed by Parliament if there was a majority. In fact, that’s what the Government plans to do post-Brexit and pass our own British Bill of Rights. You’ve unknowingly just proven my point.

You talk of red herrings, but come up with your own red herring of reintroducing the death penalty. No major party in UK politics is arguing for its reintroduction, so its a moot point designed to redirect the debate from a rational place.

The bottom line is this, anything that passes through Parliament with a majority becomes law in the UK. Parliament is the highest court in this land and our laws, by definition would supersede the EU’s law. Parliament has chosen to cede sovereignty to the EU and can take it back if we wanted too — invoking Article 50 proves this. Does the EU have a mechanism whereby that institution checks our legislation before it passes? No. Therefore, can it stop legislation being passed? No. The EU can’t physically stop the UK passing legislation, whatever the legislative agenda of the Government of the day.

In practice, the EU hasn’t done much to hampered Governments who have wished to renationalise something — France and Germany have nationalised railways! The only example you can practically point to is Greece, where the EU refused to let the Government renationalise sectors of the economy. The difference? The Greeks were being bailed out by the EU and that was one of the conditions of that bailout. The Greeks didn’t necessarily have to take on the conditions of that bailout — it was ultimately their choice. This example definitely pushed me flirt with the idea of a Lexit but ultimately I rejected that.

Besides, to use the example of the NHS. It’s a nationalised health system but it hasn’t banned private healthcare. Same with Royal Mail, it hasn’t banned other Mail companies. It’s a mixed economy.

The following have been under national control whilst we’ve been part of the EU:
- railway infrastructure
- Royal Mail — our own government chose to privatise that
- NHS

Can we nationalise industries within the EU? Yes.
Click to expand...

No we can’t - you really are struggling to keep up - the NHS doesnt mean public ownership of healthcare

You use so many words but say absolutely nothing of substance

Germany has private railway operators it’s not nationalised
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,602
Astute said:
Thanks all the old dear is recovering.

I would be happy to pay more tax although I think I pay enough already..... as long as it goes where it is needed and not in the pockets of the rich.

YouGov? Last week it was good to quote. Yesterday it was biased. But already it is good to quote again. YouGov is either biased or it isn't. Which one is it?
Click to expand...

All the best to you and your family, and I hope the old dear makes a full recovery!

I’ve never questioned the bias of YouGov, so I’ll assume that’s not directed at me. When it came to general polling, YouGov was the only outlier which polled a decisive lead for the Tories — most of the others had them neck and neck with a 1-2% lead for either Con or Lab, a couple had them in the same %.

The example I used specifically was on the 50p tax which is only on the highest earners (£150,000+ P/a), and about 48% were in favour of a radical 60p tax (too far in my eyes), but this was in 2014-2015. However, in 2018, people were willing to pay more income tax and NI if it went towards the NHS. I can find the link if need be.

Simply put, I was challenged on the idea of Corbyn having popular policies. Generally speaking, the public is more left than right on the economy when it comes to taxation and nationalisation and is more to the right on the issue of immigration.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,603
Grendel said:
Yes that’s a predictable link which I’ve read and is largely contridicted by Professor Nicol.

Your claim to be the EU expert - rather than a biased opinion piece offer your interpretation of EU rules
Click to expand...

I don’t claim anything. Just saw that opinion and posted it. Same as Astute. Difference being I read it before I posted it. If anything, you claim to be an EU expert. Fact is, other EU countries do have nationalised industries. Or basically nationalised with a small competitor. If it was the question of the UK staying or leaving, I reckon the EU would negotiate a deal with Corbyn about nationalisation. There are already examples in the EU. Main thing is state aid and whether it is used to undercut private firms.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,604
Grendel said:
No we can’t - you really are struggling to keep up - the NHS doesnt mean public ownership of healthcare

You use so many words but say absolutely nothing of substance

Germany has private railway operators it’s not nationalised
Click to expand...

The NHS belongs to the state.

The Bundesbahn belongs to the state.

How would you define the state owned Bundesbahn?
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,605
Sick Boy said:
Yes, perhaps we can try and emulate that wonderful country of Belarus and be the only countries in Europe with the death penalty.
Click to expand...
I am not against the death penalty. Some oxygen thieves deserve it. Child murderers for sure. But one thing. Only when it is 100% definitely that person that has done it. 99% not good enough.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,606
martcov said:
. Fact is, other EU countries do have nationalised industries. Or basically nationalised with a small competitor.
Click to expand...

Lol.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,607
martcov said:
The NHS belongs to the state.

The Bundesbahn belongs to the state.

How would you define the state owned Bundesbahn?
Click to expand...

The Bundesbahn is not nationalised
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,608
Astute said:
I am not against the death penalty. Some oxygen thieves deserve it. Child murderers for sure. But one thing. Only when it is 100% definitely that person that has done it. 99% not good enough.
Click to expand...

But, how many of the executed were later found to be innocent in the past? Does it prevent murders? No. Does it increase murders because you kill the witnesses as well? Probably. Does it reduce the state to the same moral level of a murderer by taking life? Yes. I think the state should not be involved in legal murder. Having said that, accidentally killing a murderer when freeing a hostage or similar I don’t have any outrage with. I think you only need to look at the USA to see the effect of the death penalty. Do they have less crime than we do in States which have the Death penalty? Not that I know.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,609
Grendel said:
The Bundesbahn is not nationalised
Click to expand...

Who does it belong to?
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 19, 2019
  • #29,610
Grendel said:
Lol.
Click to expand...

Care to elaborate?
 
Prev
  • 1
  • …
  • 844
  • 845
  • 846
  • 847
  • 848
  • …
  • 1484
Next
First Prev 846 of 1484 Next Last
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 3 (members: 0, guests: 3)
Share:
Facebook Twitter Reddit Pinterest Tumblr WhatsApp Email
  • Home
  • Forums
  • General Discussion
  • Off Topic Chat
  • Default Style
  • Contact us
  • Terms and rules
  • Privacy policy
  • Help
  • Home
Community platform by XenForo® © 2010-2021 XenForo Ltd.
Menu
Log in

Register

  • Home
  • Forums
    • New posts
    • Search forums
  • What's new
    • New posts
    • Latest activity
  • Members
    • Current visitors
  • Donate to the Season Ticket Fund
X

Privacy & Transparency

We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:

  • Personalized ads and content
  • Content measurement and audience insights

Do you accept cookies and these technologies?

X

Privacy & Transparency

We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:

  • Personalized ads and content
  • Content measurement and audience insights

Do you accept cookies and these technologies?