The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (7 Viewers)

[dutchman]

Yeah you not taking advantage of cheaper roaming charges is absolutely a very strong example of the negative effects of the EU.

It was actually YOU that quoted it as an example of the benefits of EU membership!

Freedom to live and work in an EEA country, cheaper phone calls, free access to health services in an EEA country.

But you're the guy who's taken advantage of the welcoming and tolerant nature of the British people for 60 years but now want to stop other europeans coming here so I'll take what you say with a pinch of salt.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Grappa]

Ok. I'll give you an example. The mandatory contracting out of public services driven by the public contracts directive, it has led to widespread privatisation and decline in wages and conditions.

Decline in wages and conditions for the contractors or the procurers? I had a quick look at the directive but it's friday night and it's very long. Please give me a tldr if you're able. I remember from the gmk days you always had your head on your shoulders so was a bit surprised when I saw you here semi-proposing brexit. I guessed there was a reason.

 

[dutchman]

My phone bill gets cheaper and cheaper with each new contract, I get more and more text and minutes to the point both are now unlimited, data usage increases year on year and I get a new phone each year and each year it’s an upgrade. If the cost is being past on to the rest of us I have to say I’m not feeling it.

My landline charges escalated to the point where I was forced to switch to another supplier.

 

[Grappa]

It was actually YOU that quoted it as an example of the benefits of EU membership!



You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Well my question was 'how has the EU negatively impacted your daily life' and you responded with a complaint about roaming charges so it's pretty logical to assume your complaint about roaming charges was an example of how the EU had negatively impacted your daily life. I did indeed use cheaper roaming charges as an example of a personal positive for me of the EU.

So what is your example?

 

[Kingokings204]

Thanks for the response. How much have your wages decreased by? And how? Are you self-employed? I don't know much about the fitness industry so would appreciate a bit of info on how it works.

Sure, It’s a minimum wage job in the employed industry and a lot are qualified and can under undercut in the self employed industry.

I am actually both I have a part time employed job which is minimum wage and self employed business which is competitive. I’m hurt more by the employed status.

It’s not just my industry so for example my best mate who is a builder who has no interest in politics actually who often brings up cases of polish in particular builders charging almost half for a job. My mate has a family and mortgage to pay for but they live many to a house via renting I.e no family there and send money home also to their family.

To clarify I am for immigration but controlled immigration in sensible numbers.

 

[Grappa]

Sure, It’s a minimum wage job in the employed industry and a lot are qualified and can under undercut in the self employed industry.

I am actually both I have a part time employed job which is minimum wage and self employed business which is competitive. I’m hurt more by the employed status.

It’s not just my industry so for example my best mate who is a builder who has no interest in politics actually who often brings up cases of polish in particular builders charging almost half for a job. My mate has a family and mortgage to pay for but they live many to a house via renting I.e no family there and send money home also to their family.

To clarify I am for immigration but controlled immigration in sensible numbers.

Sorry but if you're on minimum wage it can't go any lower can it? Am I missing something?

 

[dutchman]

Well my question was 'how has the EU negatively impacted your daily life' and you responded with a complaint about roaming charges so it's pretty logical to assume your complaint about roaming charges was an example of how the EU had negatively impacted your daily life. I did indeed use cheaper roaming charges as an example of a personal positive for me of the EU.

So what is your example?

I just gave you one and amplified on it in the post immediately above yours.

 

[Grappa]

I just gave you one and amplified on it in the post immediately above yours.

Your landline costs increased? So you changed to another provider? Because of mobile roaming charges?

 

[dutchman]

Your landline costs increased? So you changed to another provider? Because of mobile roaming charges?

Because the cost of providing cheaper mobile roaming was passed onto landline customers like me.

 

[skybluetony176]

My landline charges escalated to the point where I was forced to switch to another supplier.

Don’t have a landline so couldn’t say. It pays to shop and swap every year though same as gas, electricity, insurance ect. I’d suggest that you’ve been the victim of loyalty to a supplier and paid the price. Unless the EU forced you to do it, which of course they didn’t, I’m not sure how they’re responsible.

 

[dutchman]

Don’t have a landline so couldn’t say. It pays to shop and swap every year though same as gas, electricity, insurance ect. I’d suggest that you’ve been the victim of loyalty to a supplier and paid the price. Unless the EU forced you to do it, which of course they didn’t, I’m not sure how they’re responsible.

You don't see how the EU forcing mobile suppliers to reduce their charges also forced them to increase their landline charges to compensate? Did you think they were going to pay for it out of their own pockets?

 

[Grappa]

Because the cost of providing cheaper mobile roaming was passed onto landline customers like me.

So why were you able to find a cheaper landline deal? Are they losing money?

 

[dutchman]

So why were you able to find a cheaper landline deal? Are they losing money?

I downgraded from expensive but reliable supplier to a cheaper but less reliable one. They're no cheaper than the reliable supplier was originally.

 

[skybluetony176]

You don't see how the EU forcing mobile suppliers to reduce their charges forced them to increase their landline charges to compensate? Did you think they were going to pay for it out of their own pockets?

I’ll be honest. I think you’re talking bollocks.

I have a sky package of internet, tv and phone (should I wish to plug it in) the only thing that’s ever got more expensive is the TV. Been on virgin before, same experience, BT also and again same scenario.

I think you’ve assumed that the cost has been passed onto you but the reality is you haven’t shopped around and been took advantage of.

 

[Kingokings204]

Sorry but if you're on minimum wage it can't go any lower can it? Am I missing something?

That’s correct and that was my meaning. It’s being kept that low just by over supply of Labour to do that job.

I don’t hate the EU and everything it’s stands for but unskilled immigration in to this country has undeniably kept wages rock bottom and it’s the worst 15 years we’ve ever known wages wise due to the eastern bloc joining. Big business loves the EU largely for this reason. Cheaper builders. Cheaper nannies cheaper cleaners. Cheaper workers essentially.

 

[dutchman]

I think you’ve assumed that the cost has been passed onto you but the reality is you haven’t shopped around and been took advantage of.

I didn't 'shop around' because I rely 100% on a landline and BT were the only people who could repair it quickly in the event of a failure.

 

[Grappa]

That’s correct and that was my meaning. It’s being kept that low just by over supply of Labour to do that job.

I don’t hate the EU and everything it’s stands for but unskilled immigration in to this country has undeniably kept wages rock bottom and it’s the worst 15 years we’ve ever known wages wise due to the eastern bloc joining. Big business loves the EU largely for this reason. Cheaper builders. Cheaper nannies cheaper cleaners. Cheaper workers essentially.

That doesn't make any sense tbh. You said your wages had gone down but they haven't. Immigrants don't dictate what the minimum wage is, our government does. Wages being shit isn't to do with europe mate, our government decided on austerity. They made us bail out the banks and then fucked us over. Our own government. They're creaming themselves knowing that everyone's blaming the EU for their nastiness.

 

[Sick Boy]

I didn't 'shop around' because I rely 100% on a landline and BT were the only people who could repair it quickly in the event of a failure.

Sadly companies from a variety sectors take advantage of loyal customers who don't shop around for something cheaper, car insurance being a prime example

 

[Grappa]

I didn't 'shop around' because I rely 100% on a landline and BT were the only people who could repair it quickly in the event of a failure.

Jesus H.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Decline in wages and conditions for the contractors or the procurers? I had a quick look at the directive but it's friday night and it's very long. Please give me a tldr if you're able. I remember from the gmk days you always had your head on your shoulders so was a bit surprised when I saw you here semi-proposing brexit. I guessed there was a reason.

For the staff delivering services, you'll have the incumbent staff covered by TUPE to a certain degree but new staff have inferior pay and conditions. Eventually through natural wastage the going rate for a job is diminished.

I agonised over the referendum and was instinctively remain as on the face of it that felt safest. However, I couldn't see past how I see how EU rules manifest in the work I do (I'm a procurer) and how ultimately it's a pro-market institution that creates rules that favour corporations over sovereign states. That said, the way 30 years of UK governments have chosen to implement EU rules is our problem.

Having said all that, if it was a choice between no deal and remain I'd go remain.

 

[Grappa]

For the staff delivering services, you'll have the incumbent staff covered by TUPE to a certain degree but new staff have inferior pay and conditions. Eventually through natural wastage the going rate for a job is diminished.

I agonised over the referendum and was instinctively remain as on the face of it that felt safest. However, I couldn't see past how I see how EU rules manifest in the work I do (I'm a procurer) and how ultimately it's a pro-market institution that creates rules that favour corporations over sovereign states. That said, the way 30 years of UK governments have chosen to implement EU rules is our problem.

Having said all that, if it was a choice between no deal and remain I'd go remain.

Makes sense.

 

[dutchman]

Things are going great, not long now

 

[Grappa]

Things are going great, not long now

Not long now til what? What goes on inside that head of yours? You think there's gonna be a revolution or something?

 

[dutchman]

Not long now til what?

Before the EU disintegrates.

 

[Grappa]

Before the EU disintegrates.

Ok mate.

 

[Astute]

I think 'absurd' is a bit strong tbh. My point is that most of the arguments are regurgitations of the opposing sides' soundbites. It's become a tribal issue. 'Typical lefties v racists'. My assumption is that a lot of this stems from the media rather than from what people actually experience, so I'm looking for some anecdotes to back up the media presentation of the negative impact of the EU.

It has become tribal to a fair few yes. I certainly know that.

I try to put both sides to the story. But I constantly get bashed by one side. And what is that for? Mentioning how people get affected by unregulated FOM is a big one. I have seen with my own eyes the changes. My eldest and her husband managed to get on the housing ladder early. They now have a 4 bed house that even has a games room. The younger the kids the harder it was. Now I fear for my younger kids futures. So I am giving them a house to share until on their feet. When sold they share the money. No rent payable so they have a chance of getting a deposit together. Homelessness is a massive problem. Yes it isn't the fault of those who have come to live here. But it is a major contributing fact. Yet when I mention this fact I am supposed to be scapegoating immigrants. Not at all. I remember how cheap housing was when there was a plentiful supply. In the 90's I bought my first house. It was a 3 bed semi that cost me 26k. Now I would need much more than that just for the plot of land it sits on. It is all about supply and demand.

 

[Astute]

That doesn't make any sense tbh. You said your wages had gone down but they haven't. Immigrants don't dictate what the minimum wage is, our government does. Wages being shit isn't to do with europe mate, our government decided on austerity. They made us bail out the banks and then fucked us over. Our own government. They're creaming themselves knowing that everyone's blaming the EU for their nastiness.

Our government does not decide pay rates. They decide the minimum wage. And on top of the minimum wage the government pays a top up for those not earning enough. And we have to pay for this out of the tax we pay. Wages are suppressed because of the larger workforce.

Immigration has hardly made a difference where I live. You can buy a 2 bed terraced house for less than 40k not too far away. And it isn't because of low wages. Companies either have to pay a decent wage or they don't get the workers. We get a lot of workers from elsewhere who stay here Monday to Friday as they earn much more here than where they live.

 

[martcov]

A massive oversupply of non skilled Labour from Eastern Europe has directly lowered my wage in the fitness industry and also my friends who are builders who have to now compete with them who can do the same job for half the price because they don’t have the same outgoings. Lower wages have massively hurt me.

We pay a net 10 billion pounds of taxpayers money. That 10 billion could be spent here in my opinion. Other countries don’t have that financial burden.

Fruit and food in general is a lot more expensive because of the EU customs union being protectionist. The EU directly apply tariffs to fruit for example from outside the EU to protect EU fruit producers keeping the prices artificially high. I know a few pence isn’t massive but it’s the point and soon adds up. It’s a big reason why Tim Martin of weatherspoons wants to just leave. This also applies to a lot of products.

I could go on but I’ve made my point and I hope sincerely you understand my points. Happy to debate them.

Fitness industry? That’s a new one. I hadn’t considered the effect of migrants on fitness. Lower outgoings? How, if they live in our economy? Legally.

8,1bn net. But our GDP gains from frictionless trade and migrants fill vacancies. Which more than makes up for 8,1 bn. 1% of our 814 bn total is not a burden for one of the richest countries in the world. The „burden“ of austerity cuts is being carried by the poor according to the UN. Something buried by the Brexit media and the Distribution of wealth and opportunity is the scandal in the UK, not the EU in Brussels.

If we only have 4.2% unemployment, how come people can drive wages down? Can they go below minimum wage?

EU fruit producers? We are soft fruit producers and rely on migrants to pick them. Lose the migrants and supply will fall and costs will rise resulting in higher prices.

Tim Martin is a glorified publican, not an economist. If we go to WTO terms, imported food prices will rise. We rely on imported food.

No negative effect on you from the EU then.

 

[dutchman]

Our government does not decide pay rates. They decide the minimum wage. And on top of the minimum wage the government pays a top up for those not earning enough. And we have to pay for this out of the tax we pay. Wages are suppressed because of the larger workforce.

There was a programme about people living in illegal accommodation a few years ago. It was not specifically about immigrants but it featured among others a Romanian couple with two children who were being evicted. A social worker was on hand to give them advice. They were amazed to find that on top of the £200 the husband was earning they also qualified for another £230 a week in top up payments.

I believe this has changed recently and anyone receiving top up payments is now classed as "still looking for work" even if they already have a full time job.

 

[dutchman]

Tim Martin is a glorified publican, not an economist.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

 

[martcov]

It has become tribal to a fair few yes. I certainly know that.

I try to put both sides to the story. But I constantly get bashed by one side. And what is that for? Mentioning how people get affected by unregulated FOM is a big one. I have seen with my own eyes the changes. My eldest and her husband managed to get on the housing ladder early. They now have a 4 bed house that even has a games room. The younger the kids the harder it was. Now I fear for my younger kids futures. So I am giving them a house to share until on their feet. When sold they share the money. No rent payable so they have a chance of getting a deposit together. Homelessness is a massive problem. Yes it isn't the fault of those who have come to live here. But it is a major contributing fact. Yet when I mention this fact I am supposed to be scapegoating immigrants. Not at all. I remember how cheap housing was when there was a plentiful supply. In the 90's I bought my first house. It was a 3 bed semi that cost me 26k. Now I would need much more than that just for the plot of land it sits on. It is all about supply and demand.

In the 90s there was a recession. People were glad to sell. Now we have 4,2% unemployment and the government has no plans for building affordable housing. The population of Cov grew massively in the 50s and 60s and early 70s with migrants from all over the UK, Ireland and the ex empire. Council houses were built to cope with the influx. House prices were still the highest outside of the SE, but wages were too. This time the Conservative s are in power and there is no competition to private landlords or more expensive housing. Political ideology. The trade unions have lost their power and millions work on zero hours contracts or in the gig economy to get round labour laws. If we leave the EU this will not alter for the better. Latest figures on immigration were that EU net migration has dropped and non EU migration has risen. The total remains the same. Nothing to be gained there, but UK citizens lose their rights to live and work in the EU if we leave.

 

[martcov]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

It was meant sarcastically... subtle though ;-)

 

[martcov]

Our government does not decide pay rates. They decide the minimum wage. And on top of the minimum wage the government pays a top up for those not earning enough. And we have to pay for this out of the tax we pay. Wages are suppressed because of the larger workforce.

Immigration has hardly made a difference where I live. You can buy a 2 bed terraced house for less than 40k not too far away. And it isn't because of low wages. Companies either have to pay a decent wage or they don't get the workers. We get a lot of workers from elsewhere who stay here Monday to Friday as they earn much more here than where they live.

If we have a larger work force, but only 4,2% unemployment and lots of vacancies, e.g. over 100000 in the NHS, then your argument falls flat. It is actually a regional problem. Neglect of areas outside of London for example. That seems to be the problem. In some areas where population was declining, people moving in are seen as beneficial. Blaming problems on FOM is an easy answer and won’t address the unfair distribution of wealth and opportunity. I suspect that this will get worse if we become a deregulated free market economy as proposed by the think tanks and lobby groups backing the likes of Rees Mogg and co..

 

[clint van damme]

That’s correct and that was my meaning. It’s being kept that low just by over supply of Labour to do that job.

I don’t hate the EU and everything it’s stands for but unskilled immigration in to this country has undeniably kept wages rock bottom and it’s the worst 15 years we’ve ever known wages wise due to the eastern bloc joining. Big business loves the EU largely for this reason. Cheaper builders. Cheaper nannies cheaper cleaners. Cheaper workers essentially.

You've made some really good points
However, my worry has always been, and still is, that things will get much worse if the likes of Rees Mogg and his cronies take over the reigns of what for me, is already a shocking government.

His book, the sovereign individual is a manual for disaster capitalism and how to run the country for the benefit of him and his neo liberal pals.
How the like of him, Farage, Boris etc have managed to portray themselves as anti elite absolutely baffles me every time I think about it.

 

[Grendel]

You've made some really good points
However, my worry has always been, and still is, that things will get much worse if the likes of Rees Mogg and his cronies take over the reigns of what for me, is already a shocking government.

His book, the sovereign individual is a manual for disaster capitalism and how to run the country for the benefit of him and his neo liberal pals.
How the like of him, Farage, Boris etc have managed to portray themselves as anti elite absolutely baffles me every time I think about it.

Rees Mogg has zero chance of getting into power.

They are not seen as anti elite but anti establishment - it really means they don’t go with the establishment as it stands - in this instance the Brussels cosy club