The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (4 Viewers)

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Exports alone are many more times the benefit figure quoted by the CBI. Can’t help you with the imports. Always buy British where possible, unlike my brexit supporting mates driving around in German cars.

Yea, me too. I try to sell or buy British products where I can. My LR Discovery will be built in Slovakia in the future and my Newcastle Brown Ale barrels now come from Holland, and my Strongbow Cider comes from Belgium, but I am told I don’t know what is going on because I don’t live in Britain. I can clearly see where we heading through Brexit, and this trend to making things in the EU will now accelerate because of Brexit. The ERG sees Singapore as a model for free market deregulated capitalism, but I suspect we are more likely to end as a US depency like Puetro Rico. Dependent on US policy and US business to survive.

clint van damme · Nov 27, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Talking of BoJo I see the current Foreign Secretary has just overseen the successful pardon and release of Matthew Hedges. Someone remind me how competent Brexit hero BoJo managed with Nazanin Zachariah-Ratcliffe when he held the same position? Opposite result wasn’t it.

yep,was critical of hunt when health secretary but credit where it's due, he's dealt with this effectively.

clint van damme · Nov 27, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Yes, failed to understand. The details are out there if you can be arsed to look. Even a most basic details such as how many billions of trade were done with the EU in 2017 would help you. The only person who has twisted is you. You’ve twisted benefit into profit for starters.

I don’t need to share anything with you. It’s all in the public domain if you can be arsed to look. You can’t be arsed to look so you’ve failed to understand,

Studies by the CBI, WTO, LSE and our own government all available on line if people can be bothered to look and all paint a pretty bleak picture In event of a no deal. The government one probably painted the bleakest picture of the lot but luckily they get everything wrong so it's more than likely inaccurate.
The WTO are predicting UK GDP to shrink by 4% and the EU by 1.7%.
unemployment to rise by 1.6 million in the UK and 2.7 million in the EU but what some people seem to fail to grasp is the hit the EU will be taking is shared between 27 countries and 500 million people so it will be painful, but not as painful as the hit we'll take as one country of 60 odd million.

skybluetony176 · Nov 27, 2018

clint van damme said:
yep,was critical of hunt when health secretary but credit where it's due, he's dealt with this effectively.

He is apparently working on the Nazanin Zachariah-Ratcliffe case but clearly he’s got to undo the work of his predecessor before he can get back to the starting point. Not sure how successful he will be, if he can get her sentence reduced to the original before Boris opened his big gob that will probably be a victory.

Captain Dart · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
It could well be like on here. Those who shout the loudest are in the minority.

The latest BBC story says.. Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP, the DUP and many Tory MPs have said they will vote against it.

Ashdown · Nov 27, 2018

martcov said:
You mean people like you are in the minority? Maybe that’s why you deny that Farage is in the news and pretend that the answer to any fact based link is that there must be a pro Brexit one, but you cannot be bothered to find it. Just say things to the contrary of reported fact and that makes Brexit good. And block people who post pesky facts to make your arguments correct.

Sorry to burst a bubble and all that but unless you go looking for him.........Farage really is hardly ever seen now on mainstream media.

clint van damme · Nov 27, 2018

Ashdown said:
Sorry to burst a bubble and all that but unless you go looking for him.........Farage really is hardly ever seen now on mainstream media.

he's been on QT more than anyone else this century with the exception of, I think, Kenneth Clarke.

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Ashdown said:
Sorry to burst a bubble and all that but unless you go looking for him.........Farage really is hardly ever seen now on mainstream media.

Google Farage and you will see his interviews.. he has major airtime. Incredible for a non MP. His latest quotes about Tommy Robinson being made UKIP advisor got him more time. You may have heard of Tommy? I don’t know how you can avoid Farage. His leave means leave meeting got as much if not more coverage than the people‘s vote demonstration on that day.

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
You wanted everyone to take what was said as gospal as always. Whereas I want proof. I want proof on both sides. You only want proof from one side.

But as usual it is used as a stick to use when nobody knows what method is used.

So yes Mart.....evidence is the key.......not Mart facts.

How can you have proof of a future event? I said you should google the reasoning behind the calculation. That way you can see how plausible the calculations are. If May says EU car washers are stopping Indian IT specialists coming to Britain you are straight in there feet first. You didn’t question the stupidity of the statement and ask for any proof. So wrong as usual and trying to twist things to your own POV. You say we only need skilled people. Which is not true and letting in e.g. IT specialists won’t get our soft fruit crops picked. If you want proof, that is easy to find.

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
You wanted everyone to take what was said as gospal as always. Whereas I want proof. I want proof on both sides. You only want proof from one side.

But as usual it is used as a stick to use when nobody knows what method is used.

So yes Mart.....evidence is the key.......not Mart facts.

I told you the facts on our EU contribution, which you incorrectly call „untold billions“, and where to check it. ONS.

I told you to check the calculations of the CBI figures, which you claim no one knows. Which is of course not true.

I posted an article confirming the complexities of the fish saga, which you ignore. You can check the facts in it by googling. I did.

I posted an article about Bannon, Farage, Banks, Wigmore, Russian connections etc.. you can google those. There are 9 current investigations into Banks‘ activities. You dismiss these facts as irrelevant and play Farage‘s influence on Brexit down. Farage? Never see him in the media... haha

And now for the food and environment standards that could be sacrificed by the hard Brexiters:

Low-quality post-Brexit food imports threatening UK farmers, MPs warn

But, you will say those are not facts... just farmers’ concerns.. More than point out what the people who will be affected think, I cannot do. But isn’t enough for you, you want proof of the future, not reasoned arguments from people in the trade, or methodological calculations. You prefer to just say things and block people who point out the fallacies of your arguments. It makes you feel better, I presume?

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

martcov said:
Farage is on TV all the time. Over 30 times on QT. Millions of views on YouTube. On Twitter. On the Radio. On US TV. Articles in most papers. The Express in particular.

And you claim not to notice him. Talk about playing with facts.

Fish is more complex than you claim. There are constant discussions about it. You claim I go searching for it and imply that reports explaining it are pro EU. You are always posting links when you think you have a pro Brexit case.

You say people with skills can’t get in to the UK. Not true of course. There could be more allowed if rules were adjusted, but the government made arbitrary promises about immigration control and are trying to keep to them. We don’t just need skilled people, we need all sorts to fill vacancies. You conveniently don’t see that either.

When I post information proving some things you say wrong, you claim you could find a pro Brexit version, but can’t be bothered. What sort of a get out is that?

I could block you for all this twisting and bs, but I like a good laugh.

Ask your 'stay in the EU whatever' buddies that also twist the truth like you. Ask them the last time they saw Farage on TV.

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

martcov said:
No They get assistance until their economy reaches a certain point. I said „membership fee“ because of the constant analogies to a „club“. It makes it easier for some people to understand. The net „fee“ was 8,1 bn from 814 bn total according to ONS. About 1%. You called it untold billions or huge amounts of money. 1% is not untold billions or a huge amount when taken in perspective. Leaving loses us much more than 1% of GDP, so there is little point in leaving to improve our national income. Which is what Farage is now claiming by saying „it was never about economics“. His fans will follow that lead as usual and talk about „sovereignty“ and „control“, as if we never were sovereign and didn’t have control of our country, whilst the economy slows and people begin to feel the results of Brexit.

And now a play with numbers.

Do you really think we are thick?

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
Ask your 'stay in the EU whatever' buddies that also twist the truth like you. Ask them the last time they saw Farage on TV.

Who are my „stay in whatever“ buddies? I am more „the leave vote was a stupid decision“. I said that on German TV the day after the vote, and, up until now, I have been proved right.

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

martcov said:
How can you have proof of a future event? I said you should google the reasoning behind the calculation. That way you can see how plausible the calculations are. If May says EU car washers are stopping Indian IT specialists coming to Britain you are straight in there feet first. You didn’t question the stupidity of the statement and ask for any proof. So wrong as usual and trying to twist things to your own POV. You say we only need skilled people. Which is not true and letting in e.g. IT specialists won’t get our soft fruit crops picked. If you want proof, that is easy to find.

So you can predict the future whenever you want but then ask how can anyone predict the future :smuggrin:

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

martcov said:
I told you the facts on our EU contribution, which you incorrectly call „untold billions“, and where to check it. ONS.

I told you to check the calculations of the CBI figures, which you claim no one knows. Which is of course not true.

I posted an article confirming the complexities of the fish saga, which you ignore. You can check the facts in it by googling. I did.

I posted an article about Bannon, Farage, Banks, Wigmore, Russian connections etc.. you can google those. There are 9 current investigations into Banks‘ activities. You dismiss these facts as irrelevant and play Farage‘s influence on Brexit down. Farage? Never see him in the media... haha

And now for the food and environment standards that could be sacrificed by the hard Brexiters:

Low-quality post-Brexit food imports threatening UK farmers, MPs warn

But, you will say those are not facts... just farmers’ concerns.. More than point out what the people who will be affected think, I cannot do. But isn’t enough for you, you want proof of the future, not reasoned arguments from people in the trade, or methodological calculations. You prefer to just say things and block people who point out the fallacies of your arguments. It makes you feel better, I presume?

Pro EU MP's as usual.

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
And now a play with numbers.

Do you really think we are thick?

The ONS explain how the sums are calculated in detail. If you cannot do simple maths, then, yes, you are thick.

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

Captain Dart said:
The latest BBC story says.. Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP, the DUP and many Tory MPs have said they will vote against it.

Doors that mean enough will vote against it?

Grappa · Nov 27, 2018

He argues in bad faith. Asks questions, gets answers, dismisses them. Uses ad-homs, straw men, appeals to ignorance, false dilemmas , bandwagoning, come to think of it, pretty much the gamut of logical fallacies. Pointless engaging with him.

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

clint van damme said:
he's been on QT more than anyone else this century with the exception of, I think, Kenneth Clarke.

This century?

Mart is making out that he k owns he is on TV all the time now. Are you going to say he is right?

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

martcov said:
Who are my „stay in whatever“ buddies? I am more „the leave vote was a stupid decision“. I said that on German TV the day after the vote, and, up until now, I have been proved right.

SB and UKIP voting Tony. Those who try to twist the truth constantly like yourself.

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
So you can predict the future whenever you want but then ask how can anyone predict the future :smuggrin:

I cannot predict the future exactly, but one can make reasoned calculations and people do that every day. I do when I am ordering my stock. I „know“ what I will sell, but cannot prove it. Things can go wrong and I can end up with too much or too little stock, but I am pretty good at predicting the future in my business. But, I still cannot prove my sales in advance. I can tell you within a small margin of error though.

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
SB and UKIP voting Tony. Those who try to twist the truth constantly like yourself.

Hilarious. Are they going to tell me that the don’t see or hear of Farage in the media? You are the twister in chief.

clint van damme · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
This century?

Mart is making out that he k owns he is on TV all the time now. Are you going to say he is right?

He definitely has a high profile, plain madness to say otherwise, and the fact he has the second most appearances on one of the BBCs main political programmes seems to bear that out taking into account he has failed to get elected on several occasions his profile is far higher than his political standing in my opinion.

edit - by failed to get eclected I'm referring to as an MP rather than an MEP.

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
This century?

Mart is making out that he k owns he is on TV all the time now. Are you going to say he is right?

He works for Fox TV in the USA, has a regular talk show in the UK, he is interviewed every time Brexit comes up by some Programm somewhere on TV or radio, and the Brexit Press is constantly quoting him. The he has a massive library posted on YouTube by his fans, or people and RT. People are complaining about how much time he gets on TV as a non MP. And you still are at „Farage who?“

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

martcov said:
The ONS explain how the sums are calculated in detail. If you cannot do simple maths, then, yes, you are thick.

So if you are clever try explaining the details.

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

martcov said:
He works for Fox TV in the USA, has a regular talk show in the UK, he is interviewed every time Brexit comes up by some Programm somewhere on TV or radio, and the Brexit Press is constantly quoting him. The he has a massive library posted on YouTube by his fans, or people and RT. People are complaining about how much time he gets on TV as a non MP. And you still are at „Farage who?“

Yes so when is he on TV here? You seem to know everything about the UK when more or less being German and living in Germany. Or do we watch USA TV now

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

clint van damme said:
He definitely has a high profile, plain madness to say otherwise, and the fact he has the second most appearances on one of the BBCs main political programmes seems to bear that out taking into account he has failed to get elected on several occasions his profile is far higher than his political standing in my opinion.

edit - by failed to get eclected I'm referring to as an MP rather than an MEP.

Come on Clint. Don't lower yourself to Marts level.

Is Farage still on TV in the UK like he says?

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
So if you are clever try explaining the details.

No. I have a job to do. The ONS explains in simple terms. You should be able to understand. Google it.

Monners · Nov 27, 2018

Ashdown said:
Sorry to burst a bubble and all that but unless you go looking for him.........Farage really is hardly ever seen now on mainstream media.

As soon as the deal was announced last week, the first person interviewed on BBC 5Live was Farage. Twenty minutes later I switched on the tv, and there he is again on Sky News. - Perhaps these aren't classed as main stream media outlets anymore though.

clint van damme · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
Come on Clint. Don't lower yourself to Marts level.

Is Farage still on TV in the UK like he says?

what are you talking about lower myself to Marts level?
Of course Farage is still on TV, he's hasn't got his own show but he appears frequently. Just Google it and see the high profile programmes hes appeared on this year.
Can you name another MEP who appears as much as him? Can you name another MEP because I'm struggling to!
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about him to be honest.

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
Come on Clint. Don't lower yourself to Marts level.

Is Farage still on TV in the UK like he says?

I don’t live in the UK but I watched:
Channel 4 09112018 in the print Media: Observer article from Sunday that I posted. But, that’s without searching. He is everywhere. You are making yourself look extremely foolish by your crazy denials of fact.

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

clint van damme said:
what are you talking about lower myself to Marts level?
Of course Farage is still on TV, he's hasn't got his own show but he appears frequently. Just Google it and see the high profile programmes hes appeared on this year.
Can you name another MEP who appears as much as him? Can you name another MEP because I'm struggling to!
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about him to be honest.

I read recently that they have never had a pro EU MEP on QT, which could explain not being able to name one.

Based on the the contributions to this thread, Clint may or may not risk lowering to my level, but you, Astute, definitely will have a long uphill struggle in front of you to raise yourself to anywhere near to my level.

martcov · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
Come on Clint. Don't lower yourself to Marts level.

Is Farage still on TV in the UK like he says?

Are you asking as someone who doesn’t possess a TV?

bezzer · Nov 27, 2018

Astute said:
Ask your 'stay in the EU whatever' buddies that also twist the truth like you. Ask them the last time they saw Farage on TV.

He was on the BBC news, ITV news and CH4 news over the weekend and again on the BBC yesterday. He's tweets regularly, he has a regular slot on FOX news and has a radio show on LBC 5 days a week. Oh and his appearances on YouTube are almost daily as his LBC show is uploaded there.
Apart from that, he's invisible.

Astute · Nov 27, 2018

Grappa said:
He argues in bad faith. Asks questions, gets answers, dismisses them. Uses ad-homs, straw men, appeals to ignorance, false dilemmas , bandwagoning, come to think of it, pretty much the gamut of logical fallacies. Pointless engaging with him.

Is that right?

Yeah OK. Have it your way. You only know what you see on Twatter.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (4 Viewers)

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