The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (8 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

Why are you surprised that he wants what's best for them even if it's not best for us?

Come on, he must have made a mistake, he's neutral after all and will be aware that the EU will be fighting for the best deal for itself as well.

Perhaps there's a Dongle-esque issue with his Internet connection and not all of his posts are getting through to this thread?

 

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[martcov]

This is a common misconception that I've seen many times. It was also @torchomatic having a pop at the voters a few pages back.

The reality is, if there was no doubt the EU were doing a good job, we wouldn't have left. You can blame Farage, The Daily Mail, the voters, whatever you like. The reality is, 17.5 million people voted to leave. This is not a mass brainwashing or people not knowing what they were voting for. This is literally millions and millions of people expressing dissatisfaction with them. The numbers would have been considerably less had they been doing a decent job.

There has been almost zero acceptance that the EU have done anything wrong in all of this. They seem to escape criticism a lot more than they should and I do not understand it. Even as a leave voter I acknowledge the EU do a lot of really good things, I also think they do a lot of bad things. The reason this debate goes round and round, and has done for two years is that not everyone in this argument is able to see things from both sides.

Blaming the voters is the same strain of attitude which pushed a lot of people to reject the EU at the referendum in the first place.

It is indeed unfortunate that the Brexit vote won. According to the select committee‘s questioning, 45% of leave adds in Facebook were about immigration, the next highest was the red bus lie.

They obviously thought that people were more likely to vote on emotional issues such as immigration and less on whether the EU was doing a good job.

 

[martcov]

Keep taking the medications

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Why? Don’t you like facts?

 

[Sick Boy]

What easy life?

The UK has had enough of experts, apparently.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Why? Don’t you like facts?

You mean clear facts? Yes...I like those.
Martfacts? Errrr...draw your own conclusions.

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[martcov]

You mean clear facts? Yes...I like those.
Martfacts? Errrr...draw your own conclusions.

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I have long ago drawn my own conclusions thanks. As you can imagine...

 

[martcov]

The UK wants to take back control of its money, law, and borders. We will respect that," he said.

"But the EU also wants to keep control of its money, law, and borders. The UK should respect that."

Barnier added that Prime Minister Theresa May might instead offer to join a customs union with the EU, although that would prevent London cutting its own trade deals with other countries. May has ruled out a customs union and Raab said Britain still believed it could reach a deal to avoid a "hard border".

That bit from Barnier tells the whole story :wideyed:

Yes, I suppose you like that. He is doing what leavers want for themselves. Fair play to him. Britain seems to be in some sort of fantasy land about borders. On the one hand we want to control our borders and on the other we don’t want anything to do with our only land border.

 

[martcov]

I bet they did.....Shitting themselves knowing their easy life will soon be over....

I thought the easy life was not bothering with homework or exams at school, and then working in an unskilled job with no responsibilities. Seems easier than working as a qualified scientist.

 

[martcov]

As I’ve said before at the time I was in a team of 7 people all university educated all over 38 and all earning sizeable incomes. Six of us voted leave.

I am surprised. University educated and you don’t know the difference between the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire, let alone much about economics. We did the Holy Roman Empire at O Level. Still you are older and wealthy and have, according to you, a decent pension lined up. Typical „common sense“ non thinking voter. You voted „ leave“ I believe, and therefore fall into the much maligned stereotype of a leave voter.

 

[martcov]

The UK has had enough of experts, apparently.

And facts...

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The UK has had enough of experts, apparently.

The EU provides substantial amounts of funding for research in UK universities and since we have a dearth of our own scientists we tend to rely on foreigners to carry out that research.

 

[Astute]

It wasn't an issue for me personally and it surprised me how much it was for others.

It wasn't an issue for me personally. I have family living elsewhere in the EU. I have just under 10 years maximum before I start touring Europe for the rest of my days.....If still allowed. But I am not blind to the issues for other people or issues with the way the EU is run.

 

[Astute]

Weird you have ignored the insults aimed at those who voted remain on here then.

If you insult people you need to understand that you will get them back. And I have been insulted more on this thread than I have in the rest of my life put together. Yet some see it as OK. And just because I like to look at both sides of the coin.

 

[Astute]

Come on, he must have made a mistake, he's neutral after all and will be aware that the EU will be fighting for the best deal for itself as well.

Perhaps there's a Dongle-esque issue with his Internet connection and not all of his posts are getting through to this thread?

Neutral?

There is no such thing as neutral on a thread like this. But you can lean towards one way more than the other.

Personally I need us to stay in the EU or at least have a deal where I can travel where I want when I want without time limits. I want my family who live elsewhere in the EU to be able to stay there.

But staying in the EU isn't what is best just because it is best for you and me. I have more children than most. My children have a bigger age difference than most. I have seen how it is getting harder for the younger ones. I would retire now but I still have 8 and 9 year olds at home. I dread to think what it would be like for them if the housing situation continues. But I am not supposed to think about them.

 

[Astute]

It is indeed unfortunate that the Brexit vote won. According to the select committee‘s questioning, 45% of leave adds in Facebook were about immigration, the next highest was the red bus lie.

They obviously thought that people were more likely to vote on emotional issues such as immigration and less on whether the EU was doing a good job.

Come on Mart. What was the red bus lie?

The EU doing a good job? They are if you agree with protectionism and giving money to the rich and people working within the EU. I thought the EU was 100% good until I was forced to look into it by comments made by those desperate for us to remain in it.

 

[Astute]

I have long ago drawn my own conclusions thanks. As you can imagine...

Conclusions are not facts though Mart.

 

[Astute]

Yes, I suppose you like that. He is doing what leavers want for themselves. Fair play to him. Britain seems to be in some sort of fantasy land about borders. On the one hand we want to control our borders and on the other we don’t want anything to do with our only land border.

Tell me one thing then.

What is the problem with having the same trade deal that we have now? After all the EU is trying to make similar deals all over the world. And EU countries sell untold billions more here than we sell to the countries in the EU each year.

 

[Astute]

The EU provides substantial amounts of funding for research in UK universities and since we have a dearth of our own scientists we tend to rely on foreigners to carry out that research.

And where does this money come from?

You will find that it is just a small amount that comes back that we hand over to the EU. A small part of about 50% of the money that comes back here. The 50% that some try to make out that comes back to the tax payer. But much more comes back to the rich.

 

[Sick Boy]

Neutral?

There is no such thing as neutral on a thread like this. But you can lean towards one way more than the other.

Personally I need us to stay in the EU or at least have a deal where I can travel where I want when I want without time limits. I want my family who live elsewhere in the EU to be able to stay there.

But staying in the EU isn't what is best just because it is best for you and me. I have more children than most. My children have a bigger age difference than most. I have seen how it is getting harder for the younger ones. I would retire now but I still have 8 and 9 year olds at home. I dread to think what it would be like for them if the housing situation continues. But I am not supposed to think about them.

Do you really believe there is going to be a significant drop in EU and non EU migration? If so, I think you're going to be disappointed.

You'd better hope governments get on with building homes in the coming years, otherwise who will be the next ones to blame?

 

[martcov]

Tell me one thing then.

What is the problem with having the same trade deal that we have now? After all the EU is trying to make similar deals all over the world. And EU countries sell untold billions more here than we sell to the countries in the EU each year.

We have more than a trade deal. We are in the CU and SM. It is indeed the best deal available, but you don’t like it. We can buy and sell anywhere in the EU, we can invest and we can live and work anywhere. You don’t like it because others can do the same as we can. You want our freedoms, but the others cannot have theirs in the UK. The EU has said you can’t have your cake and eat it. Fair enough. If every country did that, there would be no SM and CU. So, whatever deal we get will be worse than we have. It has to be.

 

[Astute]

Do you really believe there is going to be a significant drop in EU and non EU migration? If so, I think you're going to be disappointed.

You'd better hope governments get on with building homes in the coming years, otherwise who will be the next ones to blame?

At least we would be able to choose the right skills for what is needed and not just what passport is held.

And how many more years can we continue to have nearly half a million people come to live in the UK? The roads are rammed in many places. There is no room for new roads unless homes are demolished to make room. We need a couple of million new homes at present numbers. But the amount being built just about keeps up with the rate coming here. And our population is also naturally going up. We need new or extended hospitals all over the place. They cost billions each. Then you have the doctors, schools and similar needed.

But of course it doesn't matter to some that we can't choose what skills come here.

 

[martcov]

Do you really believe there is going to be a significant drop in EU and non EU migration? If so, I think you're going to be disappointed.

You'd better hope governments get on with building homes in the coming years, otherwise who will be the next ones to blame?

Even Rees Mogg has said there will be more immigrants. Not at first because of what people voted for, but immigration will have to continue to sustain the economy. He suggested that it would be more from Asia as existing Asian migrant families would bring their relations over.

 

[Sick Boy]

At least we would be able to choose the right skills for what is needed and not just what passport is held.

And how many more years can we continue to have nearly half a million people come to live in the UK? The roads are rammed in many places. There is no room for new roads unless homes are demolished to make room. We need a couple of million new homes at present numbers. But the amount being built just about keeps up with the rate coming here. And our population is also naturally going up. We need new or extended hospitals all over the place. They cost billions each. Then you have the doctors, schools and similar needed.

But of course it doesn't matter to some that we can't choose what skills come here.

As i said, at least you'll have to actually start looking at the UK government to actually invest in essential infastructure and services.

 

[Sick Boy]

Even Rees Mogg has said there will be more immigrants. Not at first because of what people voted for, but immigration will have to continue to sustain the economy. He suggested that it would be more from Asia as existing Asian migrant families would bring their relations over.

That's going to go down well, isn't it haha

 

[Astute]

We have more than a trade deal. We are in the CU and SM. It is indeed the best deal available, but you don’t like it. We can buy and sell anywhere in the EU, we can invest and we can live and work anywhere. You don’t like it because others can do the same as we can. You want our freedoms, but the others cannot have theirs in the UK. The EU has said you can’t have your cake and eat it. Fair enough. If every country did that, there would be no SM and CU. So, whatever deal we get will be worse than we have. It has to be.

Why not try saying the truth for once.

So where have I said that I don't like the present deals?

Where have I said that I don't like the idea on being able to live or visit anywhere I like or refuse the rights to others?

So explain why we can't have the same trade deals? The same trade deals the EU are trying to offer all over the world?

What I do see from you is your inability to differentiate from what I and many others want to what we would think is best to get us out of this shite situation and also your inability to see things from more than your 100% solid views.

 

[martcov]

At least we would be able to choose the right skills for what is needed and not just what passport is held.

And how many more years can we continue to have nearly half a million people come to live in the UK? The roads are rammed in many places. There is no room for new roads unless homes are demolished to make room. We need a couple of million new homes at present numbers. But the amount being built just about keeps up with the rate coming here. And our population is also naturally going up. We need new or extended hospitals all over the place. They cost billions each. Then you have the doctors, schools and similar

But of course it doesn't matter to some that we can't choose what skills come here.

Our population is not naturally going up. The whole idea of selecting people won’t work in a country as big as ours with the various needs of the economy. It is just a fig leaf idea to say that we are not racist and we love immigrants really.

Not all available jobs are particularly skilled, for example in catering, hotels and some farming jobs.

The influx of EU migrants will slow anyway and they tend to be more flexible about returning to their own countries when the situation gets better at home or worse in the UK, as opposed to people from further afield.

 

[martcov]

Why not try saying the truth for once.

So where have I said that I don't like the present deals?

Where have I said that I don't like the idea on being able to live or visit anywhere I like or refuse the rights to others?

So explain why we can't have the same trade deals? The same trade deals the EU are trying to offer all over the world?

What I do see from you is your inability to differentiate from what I and many others want to what we would think is best to get us out of this shite situation and also your inability to see things from more than your 100% solid views.

I just did explain it. Barnier explained it yet again. You blame everything from traffic to a lack of cheap housing being built on a part of the deal we have. Now you say you like the existing deal. Either you like it = remain, or you don’t = leave. You want your cake and eat it, which is not on the table. That is the case since the beginning. Nothing to do with me or my opinions.

 

[martcov]

That's going to go down well, isn't it haha

Yes, I’m off to work now as meltdown commences...

 

[Astute]

As i said, at least you'll have to actually start looking at the UK government to actually invest in essential infastructure and services.

Have you forgotten about my countless previous posts on the subject?

Bit even if you have as it seems we still need the right skills mix. But that is always ignored. If we spend billions of pounds on each new hospital we still need the right skills to staff them. But you still see it more important about which passport is held. Whereas I see it more important to be able to look after and care for those already here and those who come here in the future.

 

[Astute]

I just did explain it. Barnier explained it yet again. You blame everything from traffic to a lack of cheap housing being built on a part of the deal we have. Now you say you like the existing deal. Either you like it = remain, or you don’t = leave. You want your cake and eat it, which is not on the table. That is the case since the beginning. Nothing to do with me or my opinions.

You haven't explained anything.

So why can't we have the same deal that the EU are offering to countries over the rest of the world?

We also have a smaller piece of the cake than the EU does. They do better out of it than we do. In other words they are trying to force us into staying in the EU. That is the part that doesn't sit well with me.

 

[martcov]

Come on Mart. What was the red bus lie?

The EU doing a good job? They are if you agree with protectionism and giving money to the rich and people working within the EU. I thought the EU was 100% good until I was forced to look into it by comments made by those desperate for us to remain in it.

The lie was in big letters written on a bus. The figure was too high as a total and didn’t tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. In other words, a false statement.

It has now been compounded by May claiming the NHS was getting a Brexit dividend, which is also a false statement and not been heard of again.

Protectionism includes rules on safety, ethics, environment and can be used as a bargaining chip to access markets which we are excluded from. When Trump or Corbyn mention economic protectionism, they are applauded by some for acting on behalf of their own workforce- although they lose more than they win in trade wars or by subsidies. The less protectionism, the better, but none would be a step too far. Trying to subsidise, or favour your own manufacturing industry can lead to the absolute disaster of British Leyland which in the end led to Thatcherism.

Which is why the EU is signing new trade deals e.g. with Japan and Canada.

 

[Astute]

Yes, I’m off to work now as meltdown commences...

Enjoy your meltdown at work.

 

[Astute]

The lie was in big letters written on a bus. The figure was too high as a total and didn’t tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. In other words, a false statement.

Come on Mart. What was on the side of the bus? We all know. You always make so much of it.

 

[martcov]

You haven't explained anything.

So why can't we have the same deal that the EU are offering to countries over the rest of the world?

We also have a smaller piece of the cake than the EU does. They do better out of it than we do. In other words they are trying to force us into staying in the EU. That is the part that doesn't sit well with me.

No one has the same deal as we have now as members. Norway has some of it including FOM - which is immigration. You said that EU migration is“just wrong“. They also pay in. You don’t want either of those. So no deal there.

No one is forcing anything. If you want what we already have, you have to be a member. You chose not to be a member and have been asked to put your proposals for a future relationship on the table.

Couldn’t be clearer or easier than that.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

And facts...

Martfacts

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