The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (13 Viewers)

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

shmmeee said:
And your point is?

Referendums are in the main yes or no answers. That’s the point of a referendum. It’s not a policy decision it’s a direction for the government to implement a policy based off that decision.

The manifesto of one party very clearly identified it as well - the party was elected so delivered on its commitment.

It lost for many reasons but the biggest was the humiliation of Cameron when he went to Brussels to “get a deal” and was told to get lost and cane back with his tail between his legs.

Yes the political classes lazily assumed a yes vote but a referendum is a yes no answer normally.

shmmeee · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
Referendums are in the main yes or no answers. That’s the point of a referendum. It’s not a policy decision it’s a direction for the government to implement a policy based off that decision.

The manifesto of one party very clearly identified it as well - the party was elected so delivered on its commitment.

It lost for many reasons but the biggest was the humiliation of Cameron when he went to Brussels to “get a deal” and was told to get lost and cane back with his tail between his legs.

Yes the political classes lazily assumed a yes vote but a referendum is a yes no answer normally.

Not sure if you're too stupid to understand the point or what.

I'll try again.

The only thing certain is that "Brexit" meant leaving the EU. There is nothing in either the question or the campaign to give any other indication. Waffling about political parties and manifestos is less than inane as:

a) Both parties were split, you weren't voting for a party
b) Manifestos aren't in the slightest bit binding and never have been.

Remain was a vote for the status quo so nothing else needed to be decided.

As long as we leave the EU, we have honoured the referendum. Wether we got full WTO, full EEA or anything in between has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum. Hell even if we left then rejoined it's still be valid because a Leave vote implies no direction. It's literally an assumption that anything is OK other than the status quo.

So all this "betraying Brexit" bollocks is just that. A50 was triggered, we are leaving. Referendum complete. Both sides trying to claim what's happening now is or isn't "the will of the people" is pure unadulterated crap. Now it's just normal politics as always.

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

shmmeee said:
Not sure if you're too stupid to understand the point or what.

I'll try again.

The only thing certain is that "Brexit" meant leaving the EU. There is nothing in either the question or the campaign to give any other indication. Waffling about political parties and manifestos is less than inane as:

a) Both parties were split, you weren't voting for a party
b) Manifestos aren't in the slightest bit binding and never have been.

Remain was a vote for the status quo so nothing else needed to be decided.

As long as we leave the EU, we have honoured the referendum. Wether we got full WTO, full EEA or anything in between has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum. Hell even if we left then rejoined it's still be valid because a Leave vote implies no direction. It's literally an assumption that anything is OK other than the status quo.

So all this "betraying Brexit" bollocks is just that. A50 was triggered, we are leaving. Referendum complete. Both sides trying to claim what's happening now is or isn't "the will of the people" is pure unadulterated crap. Now it's just normal politics as always.

The only stupid one is someone who fails to understand the point of a manifesto that had the offer of the question and the nature of referendums.

You seem to be getting confused about the purpose of a referendum with policy. It’s down to the government to deliver the policy.

Patrick Jenkins perhaps explains it better for you in this article - it’s at the end of paragraph 3. Or perhaps you believe he is stupid as well?

I think the point you are trying to make is poorly articulated to be honest

A second referendum during Brexit negotiations would be absurd | Simon Jenkins

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

Oh and to actually use a defence that political parties can ignore a manifesto commitment in any way as a justification is mind blowing stupidity.

skybluetony176 · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
Countries freeing themselves from the iron curtain wasn’t a cake walk

It also wasn’t a gamble.

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
It also wasn’t a gamble.

That depends on the long term view of how you think the EU will evolve

martcov · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
Countries freeing themselves from the iron curtain wasn’t a cake walk

What now? No one has been invaded and forced into the EU. There are still people waiting to join. If you want to free yourself you just trigger article 50 and go. There is no iron curtain, just badly informed people being led up the garden path by organised disinformation campaigns. It really is easy to leave. It will be a disaster for any leaver who hasn’t got a clue what they are doing of course. But that is what the will of half the people is. Leave and crash. Enjoy.

martcov · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
That depends on the long term view of how you think the EU will evolve

The EU has a set of rules which 28 countries have to hold to. The U.K. is making it up as they go along. What was said last week is history this week. I would put my money on the EU evolving slowly, but sensibly and the U.K. crashing about like a drunk at a Free Tommy Robinson march.....

martcov · Jul 16, 2018

Captain Dart said:
The EU refused to countenance any changes when negotiating with Cameron, it is a very similar situation now.

You can't sell something unless you offer a vision, the EU didn't offer a vision, they id not address any issue, they don't even see there are problems with the way it is.

It's not up to the EU to change the rule book because the UK Tories have internal problems. And they do see problems, but, despite what some spiv may have told you, they are democratic and any changes will have to agreed by the members.

martcov · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
The only stupid one is someone who fails to understand the point of a manifesto that had the offer of the question and the nature of referendums.

You seem to be getting confused about the purpose of a referendum with policy. It’s down to the government to deliver the policy.

Patrick Jenkins perhaps explains it better for you in this article - it’s at the end of paragraph 3. Or perhaps you believe he is stupid as well?

I think the point you are trying to make is poorly articulated to be honest

A second referendum during Brexit negotiations would be absurd | Simon Jenkins

We have a parliamentary democracy to avoid having constant referendums. The government has said we are leaving. Why on earth did they call it an advisory referendum and then promise they will carry out the result? It is either advisory or it is binding.

Having said that....Ok, then do it then.

But, don't screw the country doing it.

Oh.... seems to be a problem. No one knows how to do that. Maybe it was a referendum on something which is not easily deliverable. So, do we just screw the country? Half say yes go on, it will great - in the end. The other half say what's the point? We will definitely suffer at least in the short term.

I believe that screwing the country up for something that may, or may not leave us in a better position is not worth the risk. We have full employment and our economy was doing well. Helping the people not doing so well would have been easier, and less risky, if we had voted for a different government, or the government had ended austerity policies, rather than leaving the EU.

But, let Grendel talk about the Roman Empire, mad Merkel, the EUSSR, 4. Reich and so on. Absurd. Stupid sound bites fed to the masses and unquestioningly swallowed by them - by unscrupulous politicians with their own agendas which are far away from what would help the normal just about managing population.

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

martcov said:
The EU has a set of rules which 28 countries have to hold to. The U.K. is making it up as they go along. What was said last week is history this week. I would put my money on the EU evolving slowly, but sensibly and the U.K. crashing about like a drunk at a Free Tommy Robinson march.....

Is the drunk junker?

skybluetony176 · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
That depends on the long term view of how you think the EU will evolve

Try telling someone from Albania or a European country where communism fell with the iron curtain. Once they stop laughing at you (which would take a while) you’ll probably get a response that would wipe the floor with that view.

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

martcov said:
We have a parliamentary democracy to avoid having constant referendums. The government has said we are leaving. Why on earth did they call it an advisory referendum and then promise they will carry out the result? It is either advisory or it is binding.

How many referendums have we had on the last 43 years to justify the term constant?

Did you see Gina Miller on question time?

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
Try telling someone from Albania or a European country where communism fell with the iron curtain. Once they stop laughing at you (which would take a while) you’ll probably get a response that would wipe the floor with that view.

I’m not talking about that Tony I’m talking about a view on the future of Europe where national parliaments are diminished, fiscal policy and single currency becomes the norm. Again it seems crayons need to come out.

skybluetony176 · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
I’m not talking about that Tony I’m talking about a view on the future of Europe where national parliaments are diminished, fiscal policy and single currency becomes the norm. Again it seems crayons need to come out.

To compare any of that to communism is crayon time. The power of veto, elections and A50 were not a luxury afforded by communism. Your comparison (as always) is absurd to ridiculous.

martcov · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
Is the drunk junker?

Another Brexit cliche..... and it is Juncker.... the drunks were those with similar views to yourself...

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
To compare any of that to communism is crayon time. The power of veto, elections and A50 were not a luxury afforded by communism. Your comparison (as always) is absurd to ridiculous.

40 years ago Tony you’d have said exactly the same thing about the Eu as it stands today

skybluetony176 · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
40 years ago Tony you’d have said exactly the same thing about the Eu as it stands today

That doesn’t even make sense.

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

skybluetony176 said:
That doesn’t even make sense.

Yes it does Tony as 43 years ago there was a referendum and minutes at parliamentary meetings were suppressed so the true aims of the Eu project were not made public

Then it was a vote in a trade deal and anyone saying there would be a Brussels parliament and a desire for common laws and fiscal and monetary policy was considered a lunatic

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

Some additional amendments have been made to the white paper which is encouraging

There has to be a mindset that the EU need the uk as much as we need them.

martcov · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
Yes it does Tony as 43 years ago there was a referendum and minutes at parliamentary meetings were suppressed so the true aims of the Eu project were not made public

Then it was a vote in a trade deal and anyone saying there would be a Brussels parliament and a desire for common laws and fiscal and monetary policy was considered a lunatic

Since when does the public vote on trade deals? And I am sure anyone who said we would be discussing people influencing the vote via Facebook and YouTube would also be considered a lunatic. The EU is evolving to meet the increasing demands of our society. If it wasn’t you’d be moaning that it needs reforming to keep up with the times.

martcov · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
Some additional amendments have been made to the white paper which is encouraging

There has to be a mindset that the EU need the uk as much as we need them.

I thought we were sticking two fingers up at the EU and telling them to whistle for their money anyway. How’s that tactic coming along?

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

martcov said:
The EU is evolving to meet the increasing demands of our society

Game set and match

Grendel · Jul 16, 2018

martcov said:
I thought we were sticking two fingers up at the EU and telling them to whistle for their money anyway. How’s that tactic coming along?

Are you seriously saying they don’t need us as much as we need them? Really?

martcov · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
Game set and match

It is not being led into noman's land by the likes of an 18th century country squire and a black market war time spiv. Sailing into a glorious sunset.... haha ... we have a hit a massive rock before we have left the harbour....

martcov · Jul 16, 2018

Grendel said:
Are you seriously saying they don’t need us as much as we need them? Really?

No, I am saying our tactics haven't worked so far...

chiefdave · Jul 16, 2018

What do you do when you're a PM in trouble? Start your massive summer holiday early

CCFCSteve · Jul 16, 2018

chiefdave said:
What do you do when you're a PM in trouble? Start your massive summer holiday early

They should be working flat out all summer to sort out this mess. Got to love the policiticians !

wingy · Jul 17, 2018

I see from the News Japan has just signed a free trade deal with the EU, no tariffs maybe there's hope .
Impact on the UK car industry?

Westendlad · Jul 17, 2018

Ashdown said:
Can someone explain why inflatables of Trump were allowed , whilst the same rubber stuff was taken down of Sadiq Khan.....it's all bullshit for me but why the the distinction ?! .........oh yes it's the usual crying from the snowflakes and bed wetters who somehow actually can't abide by alternative opinion.

This is the UK from now on matey......

Westendlad · Jul 17, 2018

martcov said:
The most crying comes from the poor victims. Namely the Trump fans. How did your pro Trump and pro Tommy Robinson March go? Lots of drinking, bottle throwing mouthing off and even blocking a bus driven by a woman wearing a head scarf. Sounds like a great success. Did they obtain permission for the Khan balloon?

What the fucks it got to do with you...You don't even live here. You are deliberately trying to stir shit for what reason god only knows.

dutchman · Jul 17, 2018

chiefdave said:
What do you do when you're a PM in trouble? Start your massive summer holiday early

Nothing to do with the EU but this is when they usually rush through some controversial piece of legislation and hope it goes unnoticed by the media.

martcov · Jul 17, 2018

Westendlad said:
What the fucks it got to do with you...You don't even live here. You are deliberately trying to stir shit for what reason god only knows.

Me? Did you watch Trump‘s cringeworthy visit to Russia attacking his own intelligence services and his insulting visit to the UK?

I think your words should be directed at Donald Trump after his interview with the Sun.

martcov · Jul 17, 2018

Westendlad said:
This is the UK from now on matey......

Stop crying snowflake... the absurd and treacherous behaviour of Trump shows that, if anything, the blimp was too soft on the Russian tool...

SkyblueBazza · Jul 17, 2018

martcov said:
It's not up to the EU to change the rule book because the UK Tories have internal problems. And they do see problems, but, despite what some spiv may have told you, they are democratic and any changes will have to agreed by the members.

No Mart...heaven forbid they should. So why does the rule book start changing when the German coalition look fragile due to internal problems?

Because the EU is too heavily run in tune with the German one perhaps?

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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (13 Viewers)

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