The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (46 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

May trying to talk tough in the MOS today and insisting the Eu will have to take the white paper.

Unlikely it will get through Parliament with both sides ready to revel. As Mogg says the Eu need us as much as we need them and it’s time this was recognised.

Well one of the leading Brexiteers seemed to think we could do individual trade deals with each country.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

I haven’t misunderstood it all Tony - I’ve had the misfortune of once attending a book signing at which Hutton gave a speech on the subject.

I’ve read numerous articles by Hutton

The reason I bought him up is the fact that he is clearly the source of Martcov and his dribbling lunacy. Some of his quotes are word for word the same.

The only difference he sees between the two Empire structures is the German influence which on the one hand Martcov ignores but on the other hand assured us there is no German influences

Don't worry G, Harry Hun won't be force feeding you sauerkraut any time soon.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

David Davis, writing in the Sunday Times, said it was an "astonishingly dishonest claim" to say there is no worked-out alternative to May's plan. He said her plan would allow EU regulations to harm British manufacturers.

"Be in no doubt: under the government's proposal our fingers would still be caught in this mangle and the EU would use it ruthlessly to punish us for leaving and handicap our future competitiveness," Davis said.


Now these are guys who whilst they have a definite preferred full break/hard Brexit...call it what you will...they have been sitting with & sending negotiators into talks with their EU opposite numbers - & are saying what some of us have been saying for a while now. The EU manderins want to bully & punish those who step out of line!

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[martcov]

May trying to talk tough in the MOS today and insisting the Eu will have to take the white paper.

Unlikely it will get through Parliament with both sides ready to revel. As Mogg says the Eu need us as much as we need them and it’s time this was recognised.

Nice try as a distraction, but you are all over the place at the moment. The Holy Roman Empire was not the same as the Roman Empire. And I have no idea where you get the idea that I said there are no German influences. I have said that Merkel is not the Empress of the EU as you seemed to be implying with your Roman Empire comparison. Totally confused..... maybe you have a bit of dementia coming on...

 

[martcov]

David Davis, writing in the Sunday Times, said it was an "astonishingly dishonest claim" to say there is no worked-out alternative to May's plan. He said her plan would allow EU regulations to harm British manufacturers.

"Be in no doubt: under the government's proposal our fingers would still be caught in this mangle and the EU would use it ruthlessly to punish us for leaving and handicap our future competitiveness," Davis said.


Now these are guys who whilst they have a definite preferred full break/hard Brexit...call it what you will...they have been sitting with & sending negotiators into talks with their EU opposite numbers - & are saying what some of us have been saying for a while now. The EU manderins want to bully & punish those who step out of line!

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Olli Robins has been doing the negotiating. David Davis has done virtually nothing this year. He was taken off the case by May and she let the civil servants get on with it.

David David : lazy as a toad, thick as mince.

Not my words.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Olli Robins has been doing the negotiating. David Davis has done virtually nothing this year. He was taken off the case by May and she let the civil servants get on with it.

David David : lazy as a toad, thick as mince.

Not my words.

Yes clever clogs we all know who OLLY Robins is. And that David DAVIS is merely the man telling others what direction to steer the ship. And that he is a bit of a knob...but his comments have been echoed by his deputy who has been closer to things...& the theme of the post is about the bully-boy EU not the specific individuals involved.

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[martcov]

Yes clever clogs we all know who OLLY Robins is. And that David DAVIS is merely the man telling others what direction to steer the ship. And that he is a bit of a knob...but his comments have been echoed by his deputy who has been closer to things...& the theme of the post is about the bully-boy EU not the specific individuals involved.

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They are getting nowhere. So they say bully boy tactics from the EU.

They cannot deliver Brexit without causing damage. Not possible.

So, they do what they have been doing for years, blame the EU.

If you want to blame anybody, blame the people who put in this position.

We are now up against it on two fronts. The EU know we are in a weak position, and Trump knows it too. And any other potential trading partners know it.

Blame the right people. The ones who said they need us more than we need them. The German car industry will come with their begging bowl. We are sailing into a golden sunset.

Traitors.

 

[Sick Boy]

Yes clever clogs we all know who OLLY Robins is. And that David DAVIS is merely the man telling others what direction to steer the ship. And that he is a bit of a knob...but his comments have been echoed by his deputy who has been closer to things...& the theme of the post is about the bully-boy EU not the specific individuals involved.

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The same Davis who was in complete ignorance about the EU? The UK has attempted to do plenty of bully of its own but has been shown up as being all mouth.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

They are getting nowhere. So they say bully boy tactics from the EU.

They cannot deliver Brexit without causing damage. Not possible.

So, they do what they have been doing for years, blame the EU.

If you want to blame anybody, blame the people who put in this position.

We are now up against it on two fronts. The EU know we are in a weak position, and Trump knows it too. And any other potential trading partners know it.

Blame the right people. The ones who said they need us more than we need them. The German car industry will come with their begging bowl. We are sailing into a golden sunset.

Traitors.

He said from from his German bunker. Take the blinkers off Mart. Successive Govt's have negotiated succesful deals for the UK. Success though has merely been damage limitation.
I have said it several times. For the EU to work with it's current ideals & structure - the relative wealth of the UK MUST be diluted throughout the less well off nations by some means. THAT would be accompanied by a reduction in the overall quality of life in the UK (which you bleat on about as a happening due to Brexit - but it has been happening anyway!) I believe the same would/does happen in Germany too...but the Germans are trying to manage the situation (with good success as they can orchestrate the ECB), so it is a very gradual & less obvious impact for THEM!

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[Sick Boy]

They are getting nowhere. So they say bully boy tactics from the EU.

They cannot deliver Brexit without causing damage. Not possible.

So, they do what they have been doing for years, blame the EU.

If you want to blame anybody, blame the people who put in this position.

We are now up against it on two fronts. The EU know we are in a weak position, and Trump knows it too. And any other potential trading partners know it.

Blame the right people. The ones who said they need us more than we need them. The German car industry will come with their begging bowl. We are sailing into a golden sunset.

Traitors.

Don't forget the French cheesemakers and the Italian wine producers, they'll ensure we get whatever we want.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The same Davis who was in complete ignorance about the EU? The UK has attempted to do plenty of bully of its own but has been shown up as being all mouth.

What claptrap

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[Sick Boy]

What claptrap

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It's kind of true though, for all of the blustering and claims of having all the power, the UK has been humiliated.

 

[Grendel]

Nice try as a distraction, but you are all over the place at the moment. The Holy Roman Empire was not the same as the Roman Empire. And I have no idea where you get the idea that I said there are no German influences. I have said that Merkel is not the Empress of the EU as you seemed to be implying with your Roman Empire comparison. Totally confused..... maybe you have a bit of dementia coming on...

You have constantly stated the Eu Parliament is Democratic and actually a superior form of democracy than our own sovereign parliament - repeatedly so.

This author is a dribbling cowardly europhile in the same way as you. Also like you he is obsessed with the overrated overblown Merkel.

He frequently toddles out the same lies and anti british sentiment like you

The one difference is he is honest about germany and German influence - he welcomes it as you do but admits it. The Roman Empire comparison is classified as Holy Roman Empire purely as then it has Germanic not Roman influence.

He is honest as he admits Merkel rules Europe - when Merkel clicks her fingers junker will drunkenly salute and goose step round the room and do her bidding.

That’s the difference — he agrees with you in everything but doesn’t like you lie and pretend where the power and influence exists.

He like you doesn’t like Britain

He is at least honest about that

 

[skybluetony176]

You have constantly stated the Eu Parliament is Democratic and actually a superior form of democracy than our own sovereign parliament - repeatedly so.

This author is a dribbling cowardly europhile in the same way as you. Also like you he is obsessed with the overrated overblown Merkel.

He frequently toddles out the same lies and anti british sentiment like you

The one difference is he is honest about germany and German influence - he welcomes it as you do but admits it. The Roman Empire comparison is classified as Holy Roman Empire purely as then it has Germanic not Roman influence.

He is honest as he admits Merkel rules Europe - when Merkel clicks her fingers junker will drunkenly salute and goose step round the room and do her bidding.

That’s the difference — he agrees with you in everything but doesn’t like you lie and pretend where the power and influence exists.

He like you doesn’t like Britain

He is at least honest about that

Jesus Christ man, let it go. You’re making yourself look that stupid now even I’m beginning to feel sorry for you. You got the wrong end of the stick and made yourself look stupid. Deal with it like a grown up.

 

[Grendel]

Jesus Christ man, let it go. You’re making yourself look that stupid now even I’m beginning to feel sorry for you. You got the wrong end of the stick and made yourself look stupid. Deal with it like a grown up.

Tony the only people who think I look stupid are you - a poster who has passionately argued the case for ukip - and a lunatic who everyone on here mocks with regularity.

I’m fine with that thanks

 

[skybluetony176]

Tony the only people who think I look stupid are you - a poster who has passionately argued the case for ukip - and a lunatic who everyone on here mocks with regularity.

I’m fine with that thanks

The only one who passionately argues the case for UKIP is you, although you’ve only just realised that apparently. And as for a lunatic who everyone mocks, again you.

 

[Grendel]

The only one who passionately argues the case for UKIP is you, although you’ve only just realised that apparently. And as for a lunatic who everyone mocks, again you.

Oddly Tony I’ve never argued ukips stance and have challenged you repeatedly on your insistence the party is not extremist . I’m not going to have to go back to some posting history again am I?

 

[skybluetony176]

Oddly Tony I’ve never argued ukips stance and have challenged you repeatedly on your insistence the party is not extremist . I’m not going to have to go back to some posting history again am I?

You can do what you like. It will only prove again that can’t admit you’re wrong.

I do seem to have got over feeling sorry for you now though so if you want to keep digging into this hole of stupidity you feel compelled to put yourself in you go for it. With my blessing.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Don't forget the French cheesemakers and the Italian wine producers, they'll ensure we get whatever we want.

I honestly think the large exporters in Europe (to the Uk) are as worried about the end outcome of brexit as UK business are. A ‘no deal’ will be hugely painful for all and could still happen if both sides aren’t careful. They aren’t the ones negotiating though. The EU has stood firm, we’ve been divided as a country from the start and that has severely weakened our position. What’s happened in the lords and parliament, not to mention groups of MPs (multiple party) running off to have discussions with key EU officials behind the governments back has hardly helped strengthen our position either !

I can assure you though, some of those large exporters (to the Uk) will be shitting themselves if there is a no deal and nobody on the continent will be thanking Barnier and his team if that happens.

 

[dutchman]

I honestly think the large exporters in Europe (to the Uk) are as worried about the end outcome of brexit as UK business are.

They've stated though that "protecting the single-market" is more important to them than protecting their exports to the UK.

 

[Sick Boy]

I honestly think the large exporters in Europe (to the Uk) are as worried about the end outcome of brexit as UK business are. A ‘no deal’ will be hugely painful for all and could still happen if both sides aren’t careful. They aren’t the ones negotiating though. The EU has stood firm, we’ve been divided as a country from the start and that has severely weakened our position. What’s happened in the lords and parliament, not to mention groups of MPs (multiple party) running off to have discussions with key EU officials behind the governments back has hardly helped strengthen our position either !

I can assure you though, some of those large exporters (to the Uk) will be shitting themselves if there is a no deal and nobody on the continent will be thanking Barnier and his team if that happens.

Taking off the UK spectacles though, they're hardly going to be only blaming Barnier et al though, are they?

Also it's not like the UK is the only EU country that buys Italian wine, French cheese or German cars.

 

[skybluetony176]

I honestly think the large exporters in Europe (to the Uk) are as worried about the end outcome of brexit as UK business are. A ‘no deal’ will be hugely painful for all and could still happen if both sides aren’t careful. They aren’t the ones negotiating though. The EU has stood firm, we’ve been divided as a country from the start and that has severely weakened our position. What’s happened in the lords and parliament, not to mention groups of MPs (multiple party) running off to have discussions with key EU officials behind the governments back has hardly helped strengthen our position either !

I can assure you though, some of those large exporters (to the Uk) will be shitting themselves if there is a no deal and nobody on the continent will be thanking Barnier and his team if that happens.

You raise good and fair points but I don’t recall seeing EU corporations, businesses, manufacturers, chambers of commerce etc etc lobbying EU governments to find the compromise as the U.K. government has received from U.K. corporations, businesses etc etc.

I just don’t get the feeling that anyone in the EU believes that any damage they receive from Brexit is significant or even a priority compared to protecting the single market. We’re looking at a very narrow viewpoint whereas they’re looking at a much bigger picture.

 

[Sick Boy]

They've stated though that "protecting the single-market" is more important to them than protecting their exports to the UK.

For businesses with supply chains between multiple EU countries, that's fair enough. The notion that all of these other countries individual economies are dependent on Britain is insane

 

[CCFCSteve]

Nobody’s saying they are wholly dependent on the UK. I’d imagine very few Uk businesses are wholly dependent on the EU, that’s not to say it won’t be painful all round if there is a no deal (for some firms a lot more than others)

Of course they won’t just blame Barnier and his team...it will obviously be the Uks fault as well ! My point is that if they push to a point that the UK government can’t move to and there is a no deal corporations view will be that Barnier has failed. The EU sees the integrity of the single market as a red line, I’m not sure all large exporters to the UK will view it that way in a no deal scenario.

Finally, Tony, I agree, they haven’t been lobbying. The conduct of the large European Corporations and the individual EU countries, all with potentially plenty to lose, has been far more controlled/unified than ours which has definitely helped strengthen the EUs hand.

Whatever people’s thoughts on brexit, surely everyone in the country now just wants the best deal possible. Which is why the behaviour of various policitians (on both sides of the argument and all parties) as well as some of the public comments by key business leaders just makes me cringe. Whilst I understand a lot of their points and arguments, these discussions should be held behind closed doors.

There’s just too many agendas and self interests in play though.

 

[martcov]

You have constantly stated the Eu Parliament is Democratic and actually a superior form of democracy than our own sovereign parliament - repeatedly so.

This author is a dribbling cowardly europhile in the same way as you. Also like you he is obsessed with the overrated overblown Merkel.

He frequently toddles out the same lies and anti british sentiment like you

The one difference is he is honest about germany and German influence - he welcomes it as you do but admits it. The Roman Empire comparison is classified as Holy Roman Empire purely as then it has Germanic not Roman influence.

He is honest as he admits Merkel rules Europe - when Merkel clicks her fingers junker will drunkenly salute and goose step round the room and do her bidding.

That’s the difference — he agrees with you in everything but doesn’t like you lie and pretend where the power and influence exists.

He like you doesn’t like Britain

He is at least honest about that

All wrong as usual. I have said several times that the EU parliament should have more power. For one thing more people would vote at EU elections. PR is more democratic than FPTP.

I am not obsessed with Merkel. I just respect her intelligence in comparison with others. I have to defend her from Brexit loons who follow the Faragist 'Mad Merkel' line. The spiv Farage is very inferior to Merkel, but he has been bullshitting for years. And no, Merkel is not perfect. She is also not an empress...

The Holy Roman Empire was far more loosely held together and is not a copy of the Roman Empire.

I don't lie either, and saying that Merkel doesn't rule Europe is not the same as saying she has no influence.

I like Britain, but I do not like the growth of, and acceptance of the right in England. People actually marching for Tommy Robinson, a convicted criminal who admitted his guilt. Madness. Far too much right wing BS on social media. Unbelievably stupid comments on forums ( not specifically on here ), especially readers comments or viewers comments. Even allowing for professional disinformation, there are 'normal' people now repeating and reposting the stupidity and bile.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

That’s the thing for me this morning with Justine Greening’s input to the debate.

To think we can leave the Eu is insane. It’s like a divorcee with children and a house and shared finances thinking it’s ebough to just sign a decree sini and not continue talking about the impact of the break up.

The vote was stupid and s complete abdication of responsibility. It’s a representative democracy we live in

 

[CCFCSteve]

That’s the thing for me this morning with Justine Greening’s input to the debate.

To think we can leave the Eu is insane. It’s like a divorcee with children and a house and shared finances thinking it’s ebough to just sign a decree sini and not continue talking about the impact of the break up.

The vote was stupid and s complete abdication of responsibility. It’s a representative democracy we live in

Do you just stay together for the kids sake then ? Or continue to share a house even though you don't get on ?

Or bite the bullet and hope that you will find happiness apart (knowing that the grass isn't always greener) ?

Giving the public the vote was correct in my opinion, labour and conservatives had promised it in previous election manifestos and never delivered it. The problems have been caused by how the referendum was conducted, the lack of information available (in particular relating to the challenges in a brexit scenario), the appalling misinformation from both sides although' Project Fear' and the threats of brexit appeared to have had the opposite effect (and have been proven to be total guesswork at best, bullshit at worst), the arrogance of the EU not to give Cameron anything pre referendum (a minor concession on freedom of movement probably would've won the vote), triggering Article 50 without having an agreed way forward and the total mismanagement of the process by the government subsequently, the attempt to politicise the situation by Labour (who also have no idea what they are doing on the subject and are also divided) and the behaviour of the "Remainers" not accepting the vote and attempting to reverse decision directly or indirectly weakening our hand.

Basically its been a f*ck up from start to finish but the actual vote, having been promised it over previous elections, was the right thing to do. The mess has predominantly been made by politicians on all sides since !

 

[CCFCSteve]

Do you just stay together for the kids sake then ? Or continue to share a house even though you don't get on ?

Or bite the bullet and hope that you will find happiness apart (knowing that the grass isn't always greener) ?

Giving the public the vote was correct in my opinion, labour and conservatives had promised it in previous election manifestos and never delivered it. The problems have been caused by how the referendum was conducted, the lack of information available (in particular relating to the challenges in a brexit scenario), the appalling misinformation from both sides although' Project Fear' and the threats of brexit appeared to have had the opposite effect (and have been proven to be total guesswork at best, bullshit at worst), the arrogance of the EU not to give Cameron anything pre referendum (a minor concession on freedom of movement probably would've won the vote), triggering Article 50 without having an agreed way forward and the total mismanagement of the process by the government subsequently, the attempt to politicise the situation by Labour (who also have no idea what they are doing on the subject and are also divided) and the behaviour of the "Remainers" not accepting the vote and attempting to reverse decision directly or indirectly weakening our hand.

Basically its been a f*ck up from start to finish but the actual vote, having been promised it over previous elections, was the right thing to do. The mess has predominantly been made by politicians on all sides since !

ps for anyone who hasn't looked up what the EU does when votes (treaties etc) go against them, have a quick look on Wikipedia. After being on the fence right up to the day before the referendum, its what swayed me and everything Ive seen from them since has only strengthened my view even though it is by far the worst outcome for me personally.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Do you just stay together for the kids sake then ? Or continue to share a house even though you don't get on ?

Or bite the bullet and hope that you will find happiness apart (knowing that the grass isn't always greener) ?

Giving the public the vote was correct in my opinion, labour and conservatives had promised it in previous election manifestos and never delivered it. The problems have been caused by how the referendum was conducted, the lack of information available (in particular relating to the challenges in a brexit scenario), the appalling misinformation from both sides although' Project Fear' and the threats of brexit appeared to have had the opposite effect (and have been proven to be total guesswork at best, bullshit at worst), the arrogance of the EU not to give Cameron anything pre referendum (a minor concession on freedom of movement probably would've won the vote), triggering Article 50 without having an agreed way forward and the total mismanagement of the process by the government subsequently, the attempt to politicise the situation by Labour (who also have no idea what they are doing on the subject and are also divided) and the behaviour of the "Remainers" not accepting the vote and attempting to reverse decision directly or indirectly weakening our hand.

Basically its been a f*ck up from start to finish but the actual vote, having been promised it over previous elections, was the right thing to do. The mess has predominantly been made by politicians on all sides since !

No but understand how hard it will be

 

[CCFCSteve]

No but understand how hard it will be

Agreed. Its a mess and we continue to make it even harder for ourselves !

 

[Grendel]

No but understand how hard it will be

Countries freeing themselves from the iron curtain wasn’t a cake walk

 

[shmmeee]

Do you just stay together for the kids sake then ? Or continue to share a house even though you don't get on ?

Or bite the bullet and hope that you will find happiness apart (knowing that the grass isn't always greener) ?

Giving the public the vote was correct in my opinion, labour and conservatives had promised it in previous election manifestos and never delivered it. The problems have been caused by how the referendum was conducted, the lack of information available (in particular relating to the challenges in a brexit scenario), the appalling misinformation from both sides although' Project Fear' and the threats of brexit appeared to have had the opposite effect (and have been proven to be total guesswork at best, bullshit at worst), the arrogance of the EU not to give Cameron anything pre referendum (a minor concession on freedom of movement probably would've won the vote), triggering Article 50 without having an agreed way forward and the total mismanagement of the process by the government subsequently, the attempt to politicise the situation by Labour (who also have no idea what they are doing on the subject and are also divided) and the behaviour of the "Remainers" not accepting the vote and attempting to reverse decision directly or indirectly weakening our hand.

Basically its been a f*ck up from start to finish but the actual vote, having been promised it over previous elections, was the right thing to do. The mess has predominantly been made by politicians on all sides since !

The problems all originate from no one bothering to write a proper question because everyone assumed Remain would win (on both sides).

"Leave the EU" isn't a policy. It's be like having a vote as to whether we want to pay less tax then when it wins immediately shutting down all public services and running massive debt because "that's what people voted for!"

A leave win was for all intents and purposes meaningless. You voted for nothing in particular and since then it's just been jockeying by both sides to claim everyone knew what they were voting for.

As they teach you in therapy "away from goals" are never useful. You need to specify where you're heading not just where you don't want to be.

 

[Grendel]

The problems all originate from no one bothering to write a proper question because everyone assumed Remain would win (on both sides).

"Leave the EU" isn't a policy. It's be like having a vote as to whether we want to pay less tax then when it wins immediately shutting down all public services and running massive debt because "that's what people voted for!"

A leave win was for all intents and purposes meaningless. You voted for nothing in particular and since then it's just been jockeying by both sides to claim everyone knew what they were voting for.

As they teach you in therapy "away from goals" are never useful. You need to specify where you're heading not just where you don't want to be.

It’s exactly the same question as at the last referendum

 

[shmmeee]

It’s exactly the same question as at the last referendum

And your point is?

Remain won that so the issue of what leave meant never arose. Had it won then we'd have had the exact same argument.

 

[Captain Dart]

Do you just stay together for the kids sake then ? Or continue to share a house even though you don't get on ?

Or bite the bullet and hope that you will find happiness apart (knowing that the grass isn't always greener) ?

Giving the public the vote was correct in my opinion, labour and conservatives had promised it in previous election manifestos and never delivered it. The problems have been caused by how the referendum was conducted, the lack of information available (in particular relating to the challenges in a brexit scenario), the appalling misinformation from both sides although' Project Fear' and the threats of brexit appeared to have had the opposite effect (and have been proven to be total guesswork at best, bullshit at worst), the arrogance of the EU not to give Cameron anything pre referendum (a minor concession on freedom of movement probably would've won the vote), triggering Article 50 without having an agreed way forward and the total mismanagement of the process by the government subsequently, the attempt to politicise the situation by Labour (who also have no idea what they are doing on the subject and are also divided) and the behaviour of the "Remainers" not accepting the vote and attempting to reverse decision directly or indirectly weakening our hand.

Basically its been a f*ck up from start to finish but the actual vote, having been promised it over previous elections, was the right thing to do. The mess has predominantly been made by politicians on all sides since !

The EU refused to countenance any changes when negotiating with Cameron, it is a very similar situation now.

You can't sell something unless you offer a vision, the EU didn't offer a vision, they id not address any issue, they don't even see there are problems with the way it is.