The “Thorn has nothing to work with” quotes i keep hearing is bollocks and this is wh (1 Viewer)

[Mumford and Daughter]

Now i know most of you all say Thorn has nothing to work with. But this is near enough the same team as what we had end of last season. (Where we looked half decent) Excluding King and Gunnar. Now King is sorely missed i agree but Gunnar not really.

So where is the problem this season? Have teams cottoned onto our system? If that’s the case will Thorn hopefully next couple of weeks will work on a new system which will spice the team up?

Have players lost confidence in Thorn as a Manger?

Surely the decline of form end of last season to this is a major concern but what do you think has caused this?

What has happened to the free flowing football we seen against Norwich last game of the season to the rubbish seen Saturday?

 

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[OyJimmy]

And Turner? We are conceeding sloppy goals at one end without him. And at the other end we are struggling to score goals without King.

Murphy is a good replacement for Westwood, but I don't think he's all that proven yet. In the last home game we severly missed Gunnarson's experience as Connor Thomas had a quite game.

The spine of the team has been ripped out and replaced by a load of inexperienced youngsters who all look to Jukebox to score goals. Given that he was hardly prolific last season what do you expect?

One season long injury to Mcsheffrey or Jukebox and we could be totally screwed. We have nothing on the bench to replace players with, but other than that we are fine in SISU's rose garden.

 

[Lloyd]

i cant take you seriously anymore mumford, i really can't.

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

i cant take you seriously anymore mumford, i really can't.

Why?

This was the team against Norwich

M. Quirke
R. Keogh
M. Cranie
C. Hussey
J. Clarke
A. Gunnarsson
S. Clingan
D. Bell
C. Baker
M. King
L. Jutkiewicz

This performance was exciting and left Coventry fans leaving Carrow Road excited. This is near enough the same team for the exception of King and Gunnar. Why have we become so poor?

 

[Otis]

Thing is in football, it's a lot to do with confidence. When you are down, in the bottom three and have only won one game out of 10 that hits morale and that it turn affects the confidence. When you are at a low ebb and feeling sorry for yourselves it then makes it all the harder to play the good free-flowing football.

Players get scared of making mistakes and then they are much more likely to hoof the ball upfield rather than stick to the plan.

Bet if we won a couple on the bounce the free flowing football would return.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I still think fans understimate the boost that getting rid of AB and appointing AT gave the team. AT immediately adopted a more attractive style of play that took us and the opposition by surprise. It gained us a few results and kept us up. However think back to a lot of those matches end of last season they could easily have gone against us because we rode our luck a little. But credit to AT his change of style kept us up

This season in addition to all the off field financial problems, the loss of a good goal threat etc. there has been no similar manager boost and teams know the style we will play, clearly they prepare well for it. This season is where we find out if AT can actually motivate the players and manage the team. In a real sense there was not as much pressure on AT end of last season, this season there is bucket loads of it.

Results and circumstance have sapped the confidence of the club that will be hard to restore

I am sure given a decent squad he could do a decent job........ but couldnt you say that about most managers ? It is in adversity you find out about a team and its manager, jury is still out on that i believe

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

Your right there Otis but what annoys me is that fans reckon Thorn is some Miracle worker, if he was we wouldn’t be in the bottom 3.
Maybe the expectations they set end of last season (Performance wise especially) were just too high

 

[stupot07]

You honestly don't think we miss Gunnar? I'll tell you why we miss him: -
1) he brought physicality to the midfield, he was strong, made tackles and wasn't afraid to foul someone and let them know they are in the game. Another tread talks of the lack of physical presence - a midfield of mcsheffery, bell, baker, clingan and bigi is not physical.

2) his direct running - 2 or 3 times a game Gunnar would step forward with the ball with strong running committing players.

3) he would often look to pass it forward quickly to the strikers feel.

4) he would inject some pace and urgency in his passing

5) he would make a forward run after making a pass

6) he got in goalscoring positions on a regular basis.

7) he was fit for at least 85% of every season.

Bigi and Thomas are not a direct replacement for Gunnar, and until deegan is fit and says fit for a season I think it's hard to include him.

And why have you not included Westwood, who single handedly kept us in games that ensured we won or got a drew. We'd have got all 3 points against palace if westwood was in goal. Just because he is on the bench at Sunderland don't underestimate how important he was for us. We looked better defending corners and crosses because the back 4 had total confidence in him.

Gunnar, westwood and king are the main reasons we avoided Relegation and finished 18, we can only expect to finish lower after losing their quality and not replacing.

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

Oldskyblue, i would understand if we lost 7-8 players over the summer but we didn’t. Yes we rode our luck but the football was pleasant on the eye end of last season. That rubbish Saturday was a throw-back to the AB days back in the cold January nights. So on that basis were back to square one.

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

Stu - Gunnar was getting slated last season for his performances. The Gunnar of old we missed but not the one who played last season. Westwood weren't included because he never played towards the end of the season plus my issue is with the football played.

 

[Otis]

What you got with a Gunnar was a player who would support the strikers and push forwards into the space between the midfield and the strikeforce.

We haven't had that this season. Only Baker and McShuffty get into goal scoring positions (and now hopefully, Deegan). Bigi sits deep, Clingan sits deep and Connor Thomas hardly gets over the half way line.

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

What you got with a Gunnar was a player who would support the strikers and push forwards into the space between the midfield and the strikeforce.

We haven't had that this season. Only Baker and McShuffty get into goal scoring positions (and now hopefully, Deegan). Bigi sits deep, Clingan sits deep and Connor Thomas hardly gets over the half way line.

But when you say Clingan, Conor and Bigi sit too deep, surely thats Thorn teliing them too? Apparently Bigi has a great shot on him, but he hasn't been given the chance to push forward more.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I think Saturday was a lack of confidence in what they were doing and a lack of leadership on and off the pitch. I think you are right to raise the questions M&D despite the faith in AT of others. I know you are not advocating AT to go just that he looks at how and why. I do some coaching and the training courses at the FA always point out to coaches that they should look at themselves first if things are going wrong. The feel I get is that AT (understandably) is getting a little lost in the pressure/frustration of the situation.... cant see the wood for the trees.... he needs someone with a lot of management experience to sit down with him and talk it through. The squad is what it is but somehow there are players in it who say talk the talk but dont walk the walk...... mainly senior players and that is where a manager needs to motivate

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

I think Saturday was a lack of confidence in what they were doing and a lack of leadership on and off the pitch. I think you are right to raise the questions M&D despite the faith in AT of others. I know you are not advocating AT to go just that he looks at how and why. I do some coaching and the training courses at the FA always point out to coaches that they should look at themselves first if things are going wrong. The feel I get is that AT (understandably) is getting a little lost in the pressure/frustration of the situation.... cant see the wood for the trees.... he needs someone with a lot of management experience to sit down with him and talk it through. The squad is what it is but somehow there are players in it who say talk the talk but dont walk the walk...... mainly senior players and that is where a manager needs to motivate

Voice of reason as always Oldskyblue, you put it better then i ever could

 

[BenInTurin]

I think even just losing King has had a major effect on the style AT wants us to play. He had the experience to hold the ball up and get juke and the midfield involved further up the pitch and if he couldn't find a pass he had the ability to turn and look to run at defenders.

I always think that football is about options, if you only have one, then it's a lot easier to defend against. This happened to AB as his squad just repeated the same trick over and over again. When AT came in at the end of last season, he changed the style and so the opposition were unsure of what tactics they were coming up against. This season, the tactics are very much the same but there's no creativity in the final third so we've become predictable again and so easy to defend against.

With the reintroduction of platt (who I think is an excellent last 20 minutes type of player) and degan, it gives us different options again and maybe a bit of variety in what we can do when we have the ball.

I'm still not very positive for this season and I think we'll be lucky to avoid relegation.

 

[Macca]

We reached the dizzy heights of 4th last December, with more or less the same team.
I just hope that a defeatist mentality that seems to be abound within the support hasn't filtered down to the team/manager. i.e

"Thorn has no chance as there is no investment."

If we are going to take the view that the manager can do nothing, the players can do nothing and bottom 3 is inevitable then there really is no point bothering.

I stand by my opinion that at the moment that team is not performing to its potential and is a 14th-18th placed outfit not bottom 3

 

[ashbyjan]

Whilst there is a grain of sense in what your saying Mumf the influence of a seasoned, skilful, dangerous striker like King cannot be over estimated, by the last 10 games of the season he was fully fit and firing on all cylinders. He was the focus of our attacks, his first touch was superb and his presence gave Juke and Sheff room to operate. Also his experience was helping Juke out. This season Juke, who lets not forget is still learning his trade in many ways, is the sole focus of our attack. Sides are marking him tightly usually with two men as they know that there's no point marking ROD as he will do nothing anyway - not surprisingly ROD isn't King. Hopefully McDonald will get fit and offer some balance up front and take some of the pressure off Juke and they can forge a partnership - maybe this two week break will allow him to do that. Also Gunnar was playing the best football we had seen from him since his first superb season at the end of last year, whether this was because he wanted to impress potential new teams or because he liked AT's system is debatable but he was influential at the end of last season. There is no direct replacement for Gunnar - he was your archetypal box to bax attacking midfielder who could run at defences - has anyone in our midfield done that all season? I agree Bigi should be playing further forward but his natural game is basically the same as Clingans and they are both trying to occupy the same space. Bell, McShefferey and Baker have been abject this season and have let the manger down big style - whether this is due to a lack of confidence, ability or application or a combination of all three is another matter but if AT had proper options he could drop players and bring in replacements - who does he have - more kids. It is debatable whether anyone else could do a better job with the current resources but he is stuck with what he has and the blame for that lies with the board, SISU and the mystery owners. King and Gunnar and a number of other squad players were not adequately replaced and we are paying the price.

 

[Otis]

Bottom line is we need a box to box player. Only Deegan fits the bill.

It's all well and good playing Clingan and Bigi further up the pitch, but I don't believe that is their natural game. Big has a good shot on him? Well so does Clingan. Doesn't motivate him to play higher up the park though does it. It's his natural instinct to sit deeper.

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

To be fair Ashby, i can’t really disagree with that.

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

Bottom line is we need a box to box player. Only Deegan fits the bill.

It's all well and good playing Clingan and Bigi further up the pitch, but I don't believe that is their natural game. Big has a good shot on him? Well so does Clingan. Doesn't motivate him to play higher up the park though does it. It's his natural instinct to sit deeper.

Bigi is only 17 Otis, how does he know what is natural yet? In the academy he played a more forward role.

 

[Otis]

Also have to say that surely the squad's confidence has dropped with what is going on off the field. The players themselves must have thought and believed that we were going to sign players as promised and that we would be getting loan players in as promised.

Must be going through their minds that they are going to be expected to perform week in week out for the entire season with no let up and no help. A new signing can freshen a whole side up. I've said it before. We need Cody McDonald to come good or we are really in the mire.

 

[ashbyjan]

Thanks Mumf - I am not convinced that AT is a brilliant manager and in some ways I am disappointed that he doesn't appear to have created a siege, everyone's against us type of mentality but I fear some of this may be down to the types of personnel at his disposal - we have no natural inspirational leader (Keough for me is the closest we have - not Clingan) who can coax, cajole and lead his team mates by word and deed. Oh for a Denis Wise or Marlon King senior type figure we could build a team around - I never thought I would find myself saying this but even a Clinton Morrison who had a gob on him to get the team fired up.

 

[stupot07]

Stu - Gunnar was getting slated last season for his performances. The Gunnar of old we missed but not the one who played last season. Westwood weren't included because he never played towards the end of the season plus my issue is with the football played.

He got slated at the beginning of last season when AB played him right midfield but under thorn he was playing his best football since his first season. It's not just how well he does or doesn't play it's the attributes that he brought to the team. Even hen he wasn't playing well he was always a physical presence.

Westwood did play 8 games (15 mar v Burnley until 25 apr v middleborough) under thorn, coincidently in a run that brought 12 points.

I take your point about your issues about the football being played, but Gunnar, king and westwood were integral to that.

 

[Otis]

Well if he does have the wrong personnel there's not a lot he can do about it is there.

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

I do have sympathy for Thorn and think he is a top bloke but my argument is more to the fact many think he’s worked miracles here, he’s done ok but he is defiantly not a miracle worker
I agree we need major investment and that is very unlikely which is only going to hinder Thorn i understand all that but i wish fans would stop creating this image that he’s the saviour of Coventry city and that he’s doing this great job.

 

[ashbyjan]

Mumf - we are third from bottom of the table - we have won one game this season - if we were mid table or in the top 6 then I would say that AT has done a brilliant job but I agree that at the moment he has done ok but as things stand we would be going down if the season finished today so certainly no miracle worker. The biggest worry is that others around us will strengthen and we will simply get weaker as injuries kick in etc - AT isn't to blame but if he manages to keep us in this division then he would deserve the freedom of the City for having achieved a top result despite the board rather than because of it.

 

[OyJimmy]

What would you value King, Gunnarson, Turner and Westwood at? 7 million? I doubt the team that we last put out are worth that much combined.

And look at the bench, what options does AT have?

I'm actually not convinced by AT either but how can I judge him as a manger when with this squad. I don't believe any of the managers we've had in the last 11 years or so could do a better job. I mean seriously you can tinker with the system we play, but all you'd really be doing is moving the deckchairs round on the Titanic.

 

[Otis]

What would you value King, Gunnarson, Turner and Westwood at? 7 million? I doubt the team that we last put out are worth that much combined.

And look at the bench, what options does AT have?

I'm actually not convinced by AT either but how can I judge him as a manger when with this squad. I don't believe any of the managers we've had in the last 11 years or so could do a better job. I mean seriously you can tinker with the system we play, but all you'd really be doing is moving the deckchairs round on the Titanic.

Agree, Jimmy. I am not convinced by Thorn either, but how on earth can we judge him based on what he has to work with? For all we know there might well have been a number of players lacking 'appetite' for the game on Saturday. Thorn is in no position to drop 3 or 4 or 5 players from his team is he!!. He's got what's he's got and he has to work with it.

I think the whole club is in the doldrums and I am sure that filters down through to the players too.

 

[skyblueinBaku]

There are good points being made on both sides of the argument - and isn't nice that a thread like this hasn't gone down the 'SISU out' route?

 

[CovInEssex]

Can't see why you can't see it.
King, Gunnar, (Turner?) and Westwood were a very strong spine. Now we don't have that spine.

And Gunnar was a nuisance to opposition midfielders every game, reducing space, winding them up, forcing mistakes...that kind of thing.

Also Westwood made 1-3 world class game-saving saves every game.

 

[ashbyjan]

I blame SISU for appointing him in the first place - oops sorry SBID!

 

[Mumford and Daughter]

Can't see why you can't see it.
King, Gunnar, (Turner?) and Westwood were a very strong spine. Now we don't have that spine.

And Gunnar was a nuisance to opposition midfielders every game, reducing space, winding them up, forcing mistakes...that kind of thing.

Also Westwood made 1-3 world class game-saving saves every game.

Cookie, Turner didn't once play under Thorn so i wouldn’t class him under the spine bracket. King i admit we miss, Gunnar not sure on him. Westwood as i said further above we miss him but he isn’t what I’m getting at. The outfield players don’t seem to have improved under Thorn. If anything they’ve gone backwards.

 

[skyblueinBaku]

I blame SISU for appointing him in the first place - oops sorry SBID!

I was waiting for something like that!:claping hands:

 

[oldskyblue58]

going back to the last ten games of last season were not the key players Clingan & McSheffery ? Wasnt everyone praising them as to how well they played in the system? They seem to have gone missing this season

Westwood - very good keeper but last season was not his best and though he made some great saves there were some howlers too

Gunnar - seemed to pep up under the new system but prior to that wasnt that impressive and certainly the previous season wasnt that good at all. Miss his energy but would he have been like Clingan & McSheffery this season ? - missing in action all too often

King - Class footballer (if not a class human) bound to miss his quality most teams would but again was he missing a few games even under AT ?

They are gone we look back but it wont change the present. Point is we have what we have and we dont seem to have a system that gets the best from them or sets up the team as being very well organised and difficult to beat

All reasons/excuses for not being as good this season - but I still think too many senior players have under performed this season so far and that highlights the players who left were decent but had their faults. Saturday's game left me thinking that too many players didnt know what their jobs on the pitch were. We also either by instruction or lack of confidence pass back too much and play too slowly - is that how AT wants us to play or is it the players scared to play ?

 

[covcity4life]

i gotta agree with mumford

gunnar showed potential but never built on it,his passing was wayward most of time,he isnt that missed

king is the big one as he took it on himself to charge forward with the ball, juke does it a bit,his partners ahardly at all,and all 3 lack kings class.