Sixfields - you'll like this! (1 Viewer)

[Nick]

Was it? You know that if you're referring to a previous post you can multi quote.

You're still putting words into my mouth. Pointing out that someone has said that they've moved on and are building their own stadium and then following on by saying that they won't step in the way of another party doing a deal for the Ricoh is nothing like saying they made them do the deal at gun point as you insinuated I did.

The truth is SISU did such a good job at advertising the availability of the Ricoh I'm surprised that they're not looking for commission. They were as good as any estate agent I've ever used and I've always had to pay a commission. Hell, they even forced the owners to admit on TV that they'd listen to any serious offer. Turns out there was only one and guess what? It turns out that there was a deal to be done.

So who's fault was it that CCC only received one offer? CCC? ACL? Wasps? Every manager since and including Gordon Strachan (except Robbins apparently)? MM? BR? JE? JD? The fans? Or maybe, just maybe SISU's?

No it couldn't be SISU. The judge got it wrong and they are the innocent victim! Please!

I'm not on about how many offers they have received, I'm saying the council didn't have to sell to wasps, wasps didn't have to move to coventry. There can be more than one factor can't there? Or is it too complex so we just blame the club and sisu for everything all of the time?

The council didn't have to sell, acl was a thriving businesses. The same as sisu didn't have to take us to Northampton, The same as wasps didn't have to come here

 

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[rupert_bear]

I'm not on about how many offers they have received, I'm saying the council didn't have to sell to wasps, wasps didn't have to move to coventry. There can be more than one factor can't there? Or is it too complex so we just blame the club and sisu for everything all of the time?

The council didn't have to sell, acl was a thriving businesses. The same as sisu didn't have to take us to Northampton, The same as wasps didn't have to come here

Listened to a debate on the Wasp move affair and listening to the facts of the Wasp situation, if true, put a different circumstance on things, according to the "experts" it was move or fold.

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm not on about how many offers they have received, I'm saying the council didn't have to sell to wasps, wasps didn't have to move to coventry. There can be more than one factor can't there? Or is it too complex so we just blame the club and sisu for everything all of the time?

The council didn't have to sell, acl was a thriving businesses. The same as sisu didn't have to take us to Northampton, The same as wasps didn't have to come here

The biggest factor being that when it came down to it there was only one party intent on doing a deal. SISU stepped aside and let it happen so the buck stops with them that we don't own the Ricoh or a share of it. Anything else outside the club that happened is immaterial. The only reason we don't own anything is because SISU didn't pursue it.

SISU are the ones distancing themselves from ownership no one else. If you're selling a house and would prefer to sell to someone local and they tell you that they're no longer interested and are buying a smaller house outside of town do you wait for them to say only joking let's get the deal done or do you sell to the out of towners with the ambition to get the deal done?

Like you said. Some people need a reality check.

 

[italiahorse]

I'm not on about how many offers they have received, I'm saying the council didn't have to sell to wasps, wasps didn't have to move to coventry. There can be more than one factor can't there? Or is it too complex so we just blame the club and sisu for everything all of the time?

The council didn't have to sell, acl was a thriving businesses. The same as sisu didn't have to take us to Northampton, The same as wasps didn't have to come here

Surely ACL and the complex was at risk long term without a major client using the stadium bowl?

CCC courted the club/Sisu to take a stake in ACL for many years but Sisu manipulated the vulnerability of the situation.
To my knowledge with the JR and new stadium they still are.

I would argue that Wasps did have to move to survive. Coventry, whilst not ideal and a huge risk, was just an easy option and worth the risk. Time will tell.

 

[Nick]

The biggest factor being that when it came down to it there was only one party intent on doing a deal. SISU stepped aside and let it happen so the buck stops with them that we don't own the Ricoh or a share of it. Anything else outside the club that happened is immaterial. The only reason we don't own anything is because SISU didn't pursue it.

SISU are the ones distancing themselves from ownership no one else. If you're selling a house and would prefer to sell to someone local and they tell you that they're no longer interested and are buying a smaller house outside of town do you wait for them to say only joking let's get the deal done or do you sell to the out of towners with the ambition to get the deal done?

Like you said. Some people need a reality check.

Like I have said, SISU do have to shoulder some of the blame for fucking about. As do Wasps for moving their club, as do the council for helping a team move up the country. It isn't as straight as "Well SISU didn't make an offer so they HAD to do this".

If I was selling a house and was moaning about keeping my community local and that the local people should be there, I wouldn't then be trying to sell it to people out of town after making a big song and dance about it. If I didn't actually need to sell it and it was making me money anyway I would just hold onto it. I would also go to the local people and say "look, we have been offered this, what's the deal?". As I have said all along, it would be a different story if it was Cov RFC or Cov Speedway wouldn't it?

The Council didn't HAVE to sell, Wasps didn't HAVE to move here, the same as SISU didn't HAVE to move us to Northampton or play silly games. Am I saying the blame is all split down the middle, no. I am saying all parties have to take some of the blame for it. They have all been wrong in some of their actions.

 

[Nick]

Surely ACL and the complex was at risk long term without a major client using the stadium bowl?

It was doing better without the club wasn't it? Yes, Wasps may have had to move. They didn't have to move HERE though did they?

Some people may argue we should have moved to Northampton to survive.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Like I have said, SISU do have to shoulder some of the blame for fucking about. As do Wasps for moving their club, as do the council for helping a team move up the country. It isn't as straight as "Well SISU didn't make an offer so they HAD to do this".

What they had to do was show a clear way forward for the club, do you think they've done this, I don't , no one really believes or sees sense in the path they've stated in the media & they are gradually changing their tune,.

Basically they don't really seem to know what they are doing do they! I want shot of owners like that, hopeless.

 

[torchomatic]

Would you rather the London Wasps' franchise own the Ricoh rather than the club you support? Yes or no?

Nick ! yes or no, would you have sold the Ricoh arena to SISU ?

 

[Nick]

What they had to do was show a clear way forward for the club, do you think they've done this, I don't , no one really believes or sees sense in the path they've stated in the media & they are gradually changing their tune,.

Basically they don't really seem to know what they are doing do they! I want shot of owners like that, hopeless.

I agree, the football club should be first priority. Hence if sisu had got it somehow, there should have been terms to make sure the club remains priority.

 

[skybluetony176]

Like I have said, SISU do have to shoulder some of the blame for fucking about. As do Wasps for moving their club, as do the council for helping a team move up the country. It isn't as straight as "Well SISU didn't make an offer so they HAD to do this".

If I was selling a house and was moaning about keeping my community local and that the local people should be there, I wouldn't then be trying to sell it to people out of town after making a big song and dance about it. If I didn't actually need to sell it and it was making me money anyway I would just hold onto it. I would also go to the local people and say "look, we have been offered this, what's the deal?". As I have said all along, it would be a different story if it was Cov RFC or Cov Speedway wouldn't it?

The Council didn't HAVE to sell, Wasps didn't HAVE to move here, the same as SISU didn't HAVE to move us to Northampton or play silly games. Am I saying the blame is all split down the middle, no. I am saying all parties have to take some of the blame for it. They have all been wrong in some of their actions.

That's the point Nick. They clearly had to do something as the stadium was going to be left empty in two maybe four maybe five years according (to some ) the only show in town.

CCC don't own and are therefore not responsible for CCFC, Wasps don't own and are therefore not responsible for CCFC, SISU do own and therefore are responsible for CCFC.

 

[italiahorse]

It was doing better without the club wasn't it? Yes, Wasps may have had to move. They didn't have to move HERE though did they?

Some people may argue we should have moved to Northampton to survive.

No it wasn't doing better without the club and certainly things would slowly decline.

I don't know where else they could move if they require a ground of their own bigger than 15,000.
In addition there seems to be loads of London clubs competing for fans.

I think you know why we went to Northampton.

It works for teams like Swansea and Ospreys, so it should work here.

 

[torchomatic]

CCC accepted an offer from a Franchise team; the same offer they turned down by the owners of the local football club. Doesn't make sense to me.

CCC don't own and are therefore not responsible for CCFC, Wasps don't own and are therefore not responsible for CCFC, SISU do own and therefore are responsible for CCFC.

 

[italiahorse]

CCC accepted an offer from a Franchise team; the same offer they turned down by the owners of the local football club. Doesn't make sense to me.

You have no idea what Sisu offered CCC for ACL, if any offer was made at all.

 

[Nick]

I don't know where else they could move if they require a ground of their own bigger than 15,000.
In addition there seems to be loads of London clubs competing for fans.

Ah so the competition for fans is too much here, let's move! I get it

We have Brum, Villa and Leicester nearby, we should move too!

 

[duffer]

The biggest factor being that when it came down to it there was only one party intent on doing a deal. SISU stepped aside and let it happen so the buck stops with them that we don't own the Ricoh or a share of it. Anything else outside the club that happened is immaterial. The only reason we don't own anything is because SISU didn't pursue it.

SISU are the ones distancing themselves from ownership no one else. If you're selling a house and would prefer to sell to someone local and they tell you that they're no longer interested and are buying a smaller house outside of town do you wait for them to say only joking let's get the deal done or do you sell to the out of towners with the ambition to get the deal done?

Like you said. Some people need a reality check.

In fairness, these analogies never work - but if you were selling your house, you probably wouldn't tell one party that it wasn't for sale, whilst dealing in secret with a completely different party. But of course this isn't about selling a house, it's about getting the most for a council asset whilst bringing in business to the city.

The reality check here is that Wasps will actually bring less to the local economy than even a moderately successful football team.

Regardless of the morality, if Wasps go pop or decide to bugger off back to London or elsewhere, then this fails. If it drives CCFC out of the city, or just leads to a lingering death whilst in situ, it fails.

The failure of logic here is to blame SISU directly for the Council selling to Wasps, that doesn't stack up, imho.

There's no doubt that SISU's actions have laid the club low. SISU were absolutely wrong to keep banging on about a new stadium, but clearly they didn't *force* the council to sell to Wasps.

Until just a couple of weeks ago the Council's official line was that they wanted to build trust with the club, and that ACL was profitable, sustainable and not for sale. The problem here was that both sides were bullshitting.

SISU lied to us: We don't (or didn't) need to build a new stadium.
The Council lied to us: ACL was for sale and wasn't profitable.

I'm used to the bullshit from SISU - but I hold the Council to a higher standard. There was simply no need to do what they've done.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

CCC accepted an offer from a Franchise team; the same offer they turned down by the owners of the local football club. Doesn't make sense to me.

It wouldn't make sense, as the scenario you refer to didn't happen.

 

[italiahorse]

Ah so the competition for fans is too much here, let's move! I get it

We have Brum, Villa and Leicester nearby, we should move too!

The fan base is here.
Just need to stop our management taking the p£$£ out of them.

Rugby fan base is much less and there is a potential void here. Well obviously Wasps think so.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

In fairness, these analogies never work - but if you were selling your house, you probably wouldn't tell one party that it wasn't for sale, whilst dealing in secret with a completely different party. But of course this isn't about selling a house, it's about getting the most for a council asset whilst bringing in business to the city.

The reality check here is that Wasps will actually bring less to the local economy than even a moderately successful football team.

Regardless of the morality, if Wasps go pop or decide to bugger off back to London or elsewhere, then this fails. If it drives CCFC out of the city, or just leads to a lingering death whilst in situ, it fails.

The failure of logic here is to blame SISU directly for the Council selling to Wasps, that doesn't stack up, imho.

There's no doubt that SISU's actions have laid the club low. SISU were absolutely wrong to keep banging on about a new stadium, but clearly they didn't *force* the council to sell to Wasps.

Until just a couple of weeks ago the Council's official line was that they wanted to build trust with the club, and that ACL was profitable, sustainable and not for sale. The problem here was that both sides were bullshitting.

SISU lied to us: We don't (or didn't) need to build a new stadium.
The Council lied to us: ACL was for sale and wasn't profitable.

I'm used to the bullshit from SISU - but I hold the Council to a higher standard. There was simply no need to do what they've done.

I don't believe the Council ever said ACL wasn't for sale.

 

[rupert_bear]

Still harping on about Wasps when our football team is dropping like a stone, how sad.

 

[Nick]

In fairness, these analogies never work - but if you were selling your house, you probably wouldn't tell one party that it wasn't for sale, whilst dealing in secret with a completely different party. But of course this isn't about selling a house, it's about getting the most for a council asset whilst bringing in business to the city.

The reality check here is that Wasps will actually bring less to the local economy than even a moderately successful football team.

Regardless of the morality, if Wasps go pop or decide to bugger off back to London or elsewhere, then this fails. If it drives CCFC out of the city, or just leads to a lingering death whilst in situ, it fails.

The failure of logic here is to blame SISU directly for the Council selling to Wasps, that doesn't stack up, imho.

There's no doubt that SISU's actions have laid the club low. SISU were absolutely wrong to keep banging on about a new stadium, but clearly they didn't *force* the council to sell to Wasps.

Until just a couple of weeks ago the Council's official line was that they wanted to build trust with the club, and that ACL was profitable, sustainable and not for sale. The problem here was that both sides were bullshitting.

SISU lied to us: We don't (or didn't) need to build a new stadium.
The Council lied to us: ACL was for sale and wasn't profitable.

I'm used to the bullshit from SISU - but I hold the Council to a higher standard. There was simply no need to do what they've done.

What he said sums up what I have tried to say.

 

[italiahorse]

In fairness, these analogies never work - but if you were selling your house, you probably wouldn't tell one party that it wasn't for sale, whilst dealing in secret with a completely different party. But of course this isn't about selling a house, it's about getting the most for a council asset whilst bringing in business to the city.

The reality check here is that Wasps will actually bring less to the local economy than even a moderately successful football team.

Regardless of the morality, if Wasps go pop or decide to bugger off back to London or elsewhere, then this fails. If it drives CCFC out of the city, or just leads to a lingering death whilst in situ, it fails.

The failure of logic here is to blame SISU directly for the Council selling to Wasps, that doesn't stack up, imho.

There's no doubt that SISU's actions have laid the club low. SISU were absolutely wrong to keep banging on about a new stadium, but clearly they didn't *force* the council to sell to Wasps.

Until just a couple of weeks ago the Council's official line was that they wanted to build trust with the club, and that ACL was profitable, sustainable and not for sale. The problem here was that both sides were bullshitting.

SISU lied to us: We don't (or didn't) need to build a new stadium.
The Council lied to us: ACL was for sale and wasn't profitable.

I'm used to the bullshit from SISU - but I hold the Council to a higher standard. There was simply no need to do what they've done.

IMHO we can only guess what has happened.
Without knowing all the information I would say that once CCC discovered that Sisu where not the only business interested in the Ricoh they snapped their hands off.
In addition several years of Sisu legal action made it an easy decision.

 

[torchomatic]

The sad thing is Wasps have control of the Arena for 250 years thanks to the Council. The same council who wanted to "rebuild trust" with the football club and it's owners.. Anyway, to my question earlier. Would you rather the Arena was owned by a Franchise teams than the team you support? The local football team?

Still harping on about Wasps when our football team is dropping like a stone, how sad.

 

[duffer]

No it wasn't doing better without the club and certainly things would slowly decline.

I don't know where else they could move if they require a ground of their own bigger than 15,000.
In addition there seems to be loads of London clubs competing for fans.

I think you know why we went to Northampton.

It works for teams like Swansea and Ospreys, so it should work here.

Off the top of my head, there are only two Prem Rugby clubs left in London, so they're not exactly competing for fans. It could be I'm missing your point here though.

As for Swans and Ospreys - unless Swans are renting from Ospreys then this is a completely different situation. Are they renting from Ospreys?

In terms of 'survival' Fisher and SISU would definitely have claimed that we needed to move to Northampton to survive. In the same way that Richardson claims that Wasps need to move to here to survive. I can't see why you can complain about one but accept the other.

If we're now moved by our owners because we can't 'survive' at the Ricoh, how can anyone who supports Wasps moving here grumble?

 

[duffer]

IMHO we can only guess what has happened.
Without knowing all the information I would say that once CCC discovered that Sisu where not the only business interested in the Ricoh they snapped their hands off.
In addition several years of Sisu legal action made it an easy decision.

No guessing required mate.

At what point did the council admit that ACL wasn't profitable?

When did they offer a deal to SISU along the same lines as the one offered to Wasps?

 

[duffer]

I don't believe the Council ever said ACL wasn't for sale.

I think when they talked about rebuilding trust etc., that was a reasonably clear indication that ACL wasn't for sale - either to SISU or third-parties.

And again - when did the Council offer the same kind of deal to CCFC that they've given to Wasps?

 

[torchomatic]

So what? There's a lack of professional football in Cornwall, Worcestershire, Warwickshire (!), West Sussex... Shall we move CCFC to one of those counties? That would be fine wouldn't it? Just business.

Nature abhors a vacuum, eh?

Rugby fan base is much less and there is a potential void here. Well obviously Wasps think so.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

I think when they talked about rebuilding trust etc., that was a reasonably clear indication that ACL wasn't for sale - either to SISU or third-parties.

And again - when did the Council offer the same kind of deal to CCFC that they've given to Wasps?

I didn't draw the conclusion that it wasn't for sale, in fact when the Council said it was for sale and they would listen to offers, I thought that indicated quite clearly that it was for sale.

I don't imagine the Council did offer the same deal to CCFC, I would rather they did, but I also think that if someone wants something they should put an offer in, a bit like Wasps must have done.

 

[duffer]

I didn't draw the conclusion that it wasn't for sale, in fact when the Council said it was for sale and they would listen to offers, I thought that indicated quite clearly that it was for sale.

I don't imagine the Council did offer the same deal to CCFC, I would rather they did, but I also think that if someone wants something they should put an offer in, a bit like Wasps must have done.

RT, at the risk of going around in circles, you're not going to put an offer in if you're not aware it's for sale though, are you?

The last thing the council said publicly was that they were welcoming the club back and looked forward to rebuilding trust. I think most people would, not unreasonably, read that as "let's see how it goes and talk about a deal later".

I get entirely that SISU banging on about the new stadium was daft - but again when did the council offer the kind of deal they've given to Wasps, to CCFC?

 

[Rusty Trombone]

RT, at the risk of going around in circles, you're not going to put an offer in if you're not aware it's for sale though, are you?

The last thing the council said publicly was that they were welcoming the club back and looked forward to rebuilding trust. I think most people would, not unreasonably, read that as "let's see how it goes and talk about a deal later".

I get entirely that SISU banging on about the new stadium was daft - but again when did the council offer the kind of deal they've given to Wasps, to CCFC?

They were aware it was for sale.

I'm surprised anyone would read it that way.

 

[The Reverend Skyblue]

Going back on to the Op original topic, I believe Cardoza has fallen out with the main contractor over the rising cost of the new stand.
It will go well over budget , so he has pulled them off site to find out what has gone on to get into this situation. The stand itself is a laughing stock, its been designed so badly that a lot of the seats at the back will have restricted views due to the corporate boxes not running the full length along the back , so seating either side will not be able to see the opposite end of the pitch.

You would not believe that this could happen could you, and the fans at Northampton are up in arms about it. How will they sell those 20% of seats when you cant see the other end of the pitch. If we are thinking of building a complete new stadium for 25-30 million with all the infrastructure that needs doing as well, when this monstrosity cost 10-12 million .

 

[duffer]

They were aware it was for sale.

I'm surprised anyone would read it that way.

Really? Because to be honest I think you're making things up to try and suit your argument.

Here's the article with the "acting leader of Coventry City Council" welcoming the club back to the Ricoh.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/council-chief-need-time-rebuild-7651892

Which bit of that says that ACL is for sale?

Was it in this quote somewhere...

"The terms of the agreement between the club and ACL are commercially confidential. I’m optimistic and looking forward to seeing the club back playing there. As for the future, I think we should take one day at a time and not get ahead of ourselves and use this period to rebuild trust. All parties concerned need to learn to open doors the door for one another as opposed to allowing it to slam in other people’s faces."

Or this one perhaps?

“There’s been too much personal criticism in the past. A conciliatory approach is in the best interests of all parties concerned.”

I'm not surprised that anyone could read that as ACL being for sale to SISU, I'm amazed, because clearly it doesn't.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

So what? There's a lack of professional football in Cornwall, Worcestershire, Warwickshire (!), West Sussex... Shall we move CCFC to one of those counties? That would be fine wouldn't it? Just business.

Nature abhors a vacuum, eh?

Yes please. Pre-match beers round Weemans.

Post-match commiserations also round at Weemans.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

Really? Because to be honest I think you're making things up to try and suit your argument.

Here's the article with the "acting leader of Coventry City Council" welcoming the club back to the Ricoh.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/council-chief-need-time-rebuild-7651892

Which bit of that says that ACL is for sale?

Was it in this quote somewhere...

"The terms of the agreement between the club and ACL are commercially confidential. I’m optimistic and looking forward to seeing the club back playing there. As for the future, I think we should take one day at a time and not get ahead of ourselves and use this period to rebuild trust. All parties concerned need to learn to open doors the door for one another as opposed to allowing it to slam in other people’s faces."

Or this one perhaps?

“There’s been too much personal criticism in the past. A conciliatory approach is in the best interests of all parties concerned.”

I'm not surprised that anyone could read that as ACL being for sale to SISU, I'm amazed, because clearly it doesn't.

You seem to have changed your argument, before it was the Council said it wasn't for sale, now your argument is that they didn't say it was for sale.

 

[Sick Boy]

Listened to a debate on the Wasp move affair and listening to the facts of the Wasp situation, if true, put a different circumstance on things, according to the "experts" it was move or fold.

Why should we care if they folded, it wasn't our problem.

 

[shmmeee]

Would you rather the London Wasps' franchise own the Ricoh rather than the club you support? Yes or no?

The club we support doesn't want the stadium!! FFS you have to stretch some way to keep your irrational hatred of your democratically elected council going dont you?

This thread is unbelievable with the amount of dodgy logic and dodging the question from you and Nick.