DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
Plus an honourable mention for Gordon Milne for the 77/78 season/team (and the signings of Stein and Hutch!).
SISU (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter skybluebeduff
- Start date
Agreed.
Plus an honourable mention for Gordon Milne for the 77/78 season/team (and the signings of Stein and Hutch!).
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
Just think, if we'd been relegated a couple of further levels under SISU's tenure, then we might have been *really* successful.
mark_ccfc
Well-Known Member
We have won a few lower league tinpot trophies. We are still in a lower position than when SISU took over, and we are still not guaranteed promotion. We also currently have no home stadium.
Yes it's bollocks because it's SISU because SISU are bollocks.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
Returning the club to the same level we were at when they found us just without a contract to play at a stadium doesn’t make them a success. Fuck them.
Just because the council have fucked us over and Wasps are the main reason we can’t play in Cov doesn’t make sisu saints. We’d be much better off with different owners.
Just because the council have fucked us over and Wasps are the main reason we can’t play in Cov doesn’t make sisu saints. We’d be much better off with different owners.
NorthernWisdom
Well-Known Member
It's not just league position after all. The alienation and split they've caused has been catastrophic too, let alone fracturing the culture, the identity of the club.
Managing to relegate us a couple of times to then come back up doesn't make them a success. Otherwise we may as well have wound the club up, started at the dog and duck league with Ming the Merciless in charge, and won so many promotions that Ming would have been seen as best owner in all millenia known to man and amoeba kind.
ccfcway
Well-Known Member
he could he signed his son, Tyrone mings in defence
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
That is also true. Just because they are shit doesn’t mean it couldn’t be worse. Jumping at the first opportunity landed us with sisu. The trust would have us as a subservient wasps entity if they’d got their way.
BackRoomRummermill
Well-Known Member
One of the issues I have is we become the forgotten club , even now no one really mentions us . I remember the day of CEEFAX sport and you could see Cov news on it. We have become nothing , I loved the great escapes we did
SISU have brought years of lower league football. Yes it’s been fun, but we wasted years and years in leagues we never should have been in.
IF we go up we’ll be in the same position as when they bought us, only without the potential of our own ground. Absolutely no way they are our best owners. Yes they’ve got better and I’m definitely not saying they’re the worst ... but only when they build us a ground and get us in the prem are they classed our best owners.
IF we go up we’ll be in the same position as when they bought us, only without the potential of our own ground. Absolutely no way they are our best owners. Yes they’ve got better and I’m definitely not saying they’re the worst ... but only when they build us a ground and get us in the prem are they classed our best owners.
BackRoomRummermill
Well-Known Member
Don’t forget winning Champions league
letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Ffs I have to give you a like
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Personally, relegation to League 1 was inevitable with or without SISU.
We needed to start again with everything, and relegation to League 2 was our ‘reset button’. With hindsight, it’s difficult to say what would’ve happened with the RICOH had someone else taken over, was conflict, or a stand off over the rent inevitable?
We were a club going backwards long before SISU arrived. They couldn’t turn it around in the Championship or the first time around in League 1 - and a lot of mistakes made in between. From a lack of transparency to ground shares, SISU will never have the full trust of the fans.
Adge
Well-Known Member
Someone said it was a master stroke them getting on the phone to Robins to ask him to come back.
I think it was more a case of they had exhausted all avenues after their lame attempts with hapless managers before him and were hoping for him to steady the ship. I’m not sure that they predicted the fantastic job he would do on his second employment thus far. It’s fair to say that the success of Robins and his fantastic team is papering over the cracks for them and their incompetence during their wretched tenure.
I think it was more a case of they had exhausted all avenues after their lame attempts with hapless managers before him and were hoping for him to steady the ship. I’m not sure that they predicted the fantastic job he would do on his second employment thus far. It’s fair to say that the success of Robins and his fantastic team is papering over the cracks for them and their incompetence during their wretched tenure.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Works both ways. Robins was a busted flush as a manager and if you take his record away from working here he is really not a very attractive prospect
Robins and Sisu are very good bedfellows
mark82
Moderator
You've touched on something around the recession. As a hedge fund they'll have been hit quite badly by that, and their profits are nothing like what they were pre-2008. As a minimum, I'm guessing it had some impact on their strategy for CCFC.
Not going to start defending every move they've made, but I've always understood many of the decisions they've made from a business perspective. I think, stadium issue aside, we're better run now than at any point in my lifetime. We'd be in quite a good place if the Ricoh hadn't been sold to Wasps.
mark82
Moderator
Robin's had stayed in touch with senior management at the club & Sisu. I think it was a case of things lining up, the relationship had always been good.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
They never had a strategy for us. They were sold a dream by Ranson and they provided him with a budget to make it happen. When he failed miserably he threw his toys out of the pram and left sisu with a football club to run, something they had no idea how to do.
ccfcway
Well-Known Member
spot on.
mark82
Moderator
I'm not sure its realistic to say they didn't have a strategy. This isn't their first business. It's clear plan A didn't work, so they moved onto plan B (which was likely guided in part by market forces).
AFCCOVENTRY
Well-Known Member
Sisu as a hedge fund purchased the club at the wrong time. If they knew the recession was around the corner they would have never invested. It’s a tricky one, because business wise we are in a better place but we still face a huge dilemma and our ultimate nemesis...where do we play home games? Brum isn’t sustainable and Wasps v Sisu just isn’t going to work. Fans are stuck in the middle.
I hope some common sense prevails from all sides once this season ends because Robins is performing miracles considering we have no home.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I people’s main problem was Plan B was hire the likes of Igwe Onye and Ken Delieu and cut the club to the bone which still haemorrhaging cash.
Then Plan C was wheel out Fisher to piss off fans about a fake stadium while hiring the likes of Russell Slade.
Plan D has been OK though.
Halftime Orange
Well-Known Member
SISU may be our owners on paper but the real head honcho is the shady as hell 'Arvo Masterfund' and whoever or whatever is behind that front is a complete mystery.
mark82
Moderator
Igwe & Dulieu. Christ, you forget how laughable that period was!
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Says something the relationship was still there to ask and for robins to accept. Not sure we can love robins impact and not listen to his thoughts on Sisu Joy and ccc
Loughborough Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It’s an investment fund run by SISU. Basically a vehicle used to buy us out of admin from themselves.
Loughborough Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
My 2p for what it’s worth. SISU made a complete pigs ear out of running the club for many years, alienated the fans, lost any chance of getting a permanent stake in the Ricoh and relegated us twice (which had cost them quite a substantial amount of money let’s not forget). Having said that a few years ago something seems to have changed and the club is being run much better, with much better communication with the fans, a sensible transfer policy which is currently doing a decent job of providing Robins with a competitive team whilst keeping the books balanced and they are letting the football people run the club (within budget restraints). The damage done in their early years is going to take a long time to get over, but if we do get promoted this year, all we need is a permanent home and we are in the same position as when they took over without losing millions every year. Looking at it from a business perspective, we are now a much more attractive proposition than we have been in a long time. I feel maybe a corner is being turned.
AFCCOVENTRY
Well-Known Member
As Fisher said once... Sisu would only consider selling if we are on the up...
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Until we have to pay PL wages and fees and then we're reliant on the PL TV cash.
COVKIDSNEVERQUIT
Well-Known Member
And that is down to Mark Robins and not Sisu.
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
Those halcyon days
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
At present the club is being run much better looking at it from the outside. However I think having taken the club so low any improvement is going to seem like a sizeable improvement. It was largely SISU and the decisions they made or oversaw that took us that low.
There are people at the club now that know how to run a team and the behind scenes functions. They know the importance of fan engagement and that has markedly improved from the toxic situation created. Anything that is going on behind the scenes between SISU and other stakeholders has been largely masked by the achievements this season on the pitch. I wonder if people would have been quite so conciliatory if the team was struggling at the lower end of L1.
I do not think for one minute that SISU or Joy Seppala have changed the objectives or the drivers for those objectives. This is about high risk investment strategies first and foremost. There has been no light bulb moment
MR is doing a great job in difficult circumstances. He has bought in to what needs to be done and the restrictions he faces and made it work. He was appointed 06/03/2017 after we had qualified for the final on 02/04/2017. He wont have changed much in a month, couldnt change the playing squad available so to credit it all to him in terms of winning the cup is a bit unfair. Even he said at the time it wasnt really down to him. If you credit him with the cup final win then you could easily also credit him with our relegation - which would also not be fair.
What you can not take away from MR is the promotion in difficult circumstances from L2 and the potential for Championship football next season - all down to him, his staff and his team. SISU are supportive and keen for success - why wouldnt they be but the biggest support is probably just letting MR get on with it and do his job
SISU have wiped the slate clean financially for CCFC twice. Once in 2008 and then again in 2013. Yet after twelve years of their tenure we still accrue debt, much of it subject to double digit interest rates. The aim is for the club to be self sufficient, something i would agree with for all clubs, but unless we source multi million pound player sales then we are nowhere close. In fact annual operating losses in the years to 31/05/2019 are on the rise
In 2008 we had total assets of £17,270,857 (based on what SBS&L took on) and in 2019 it was £1,676,045
In 2008 we had liabilities of £22,219,146 (based on what SBS&L took on) and in 2019 it was £21,439,765 (but then there was the debt converted to preference shares following the 2014 administration of £65m to add to that)
In 2008 we had a home in Coventry, 2019 we do not
"But they are backing MR " Passively perhaps but in terms of providing extra finance are they? Taking the accounts for 2018 and 2019 (the only full years under MR's management), SISU have put £500k in to the club. In the same period they have extracted £620,650 of the loans. In 2019 they started paying down the interest that has been accruing when they paid out £1.48m. Lets be clear they are perfectly entitled to do this. But what they are doing is extracting funds generated from football trading restricting the amount available to MR. They choose to charge the interest many other owners do not make any interest charge
Yes we have had lots of players join the squad for the 2017/18, 2018/19 and 2019/20 seasons but it was a necessity due to the number that have left. They had to be replaced otherwise we had no squad. That really isnt the owners backing the manager is it? even less so if look at the net amount put in or extracted by the owners.
To be fair in the early years they did put substantial amounts in to the club to keep it going - around 30m to 35m - however much of it resulted from their own mis-management and poor decision making. For example when they took over they had the whip hand on the rent to be paid and failed to address it. They failed to control expenditure, they appointed people not up to the task. It wasnt until 2011 when Seppala got involved personally that things started to change in terms of CCFC finances but at around that time relationships with other stakeholders became very toxic.
The idea of breaking the lease was quite clever to be honest but high risk. It relied on no one else being interested - they gambled with CCFC and miscalculated. The administration was driven by SISU, and the roots of it were in 2011 when SISU as managing agents arranged a charge in favour of ARVO to be levied over the CCFC assets. Yes the lease was broken but what the plan achieved though was a disconnect between club and the stadium but also a big chunk of fans. Despite the current success that has not been fully repaired for many. Not to mention creating the opportunity for the unwelcome sale of ACL to wasps
The second exile is less clear cut. The actions of the landlords wasps have created hardened positions and the likelyhood of a return is not great. SISU are entitled to take the actions they have, but must have known with reasonable certainty back in February 2019 what the likely reaction would be. No it isnt legal action against wasps but it does affect wasps and their ability to refinance. It would be naiive to think that wasps and their owner would not fight their own corner.
The current business model for CCFC implicitly seeks not to rely on the owners. SISU are lenders of last resort, they make sure the club doesnt fail to pay its way. That is not a bad thing it means the club will survive but it also protects the ability for SISU to take actions relating to their investment clients. However my own reading of things is that far from it being a well thought out plan it came about because they simply could not access further funding. The club had to live within its own cash means. No great innovative management strategy that but not a bad strategy even so.
The club relies on player sales to keep going in the SISU tenure the club has sold £24m of players and bought £9m. During MR's tenure covering 2018 & 2019 that has been sales £5.4m and purchases £1.1m. In 2019/20 you would estimate sales £8m (chaplin,bayliss & McCallum mainly) and purchases £1m? The club has to sell players to survive and recently they have been very good at it. Remember there have been no net new funds put in by the owners during that time, the club broke even in 2019 and had a small amount in the bank
The PR more recently has been better. The connection to the fans has developed. But is this the owners or is it driven by MR and people like Boddy? I would think it is the latter. But it also helps that the team is winning and on the verge of promotion again. By own feel is that any PR directly from SISU is for specific purposes and not aimed at the fans foremost
Personally i think people are letting the success on the pitch colour their judgement of SISU actions. For years there was tangible evidence of SISU being one of the worst scheming owners around. Recently they have been less focused on confrontation and let MR & co get on with improving the asset they bought. However is the lack of confrontation partly because other stakeholders have simply stopped engaging with SISU? It would however be quite wrong to think that this is all there is to it for SISU, their focus primarily is to recover their investment.
At the moment things are going well on the pitch and behind the scenes SISU can simply sit and wait, they dont have to say anything or do anything and luckily for them the team performance further masks that. They are apparently sure CCFC can have a further two years at St Andrews if they need it. But there is no long term security for the club, there is no tangible evidence of a return to Coventry or a new stadium. The biggest damage they have done is to create situations where the club has no real security either in property, or home but also amongst a large group of fans.. No i am not excusing the part others have played in all this particularly CCC but this thread is an assessment of SISU. It is not all SISU's fault but they have been the leading figure in the whole saga, more often than not leading the events with everyone else playing catch up and reacting to the SISU planning
Are we better off than we were in 2008. In the sense we are still here yes. But could CCC have afforded to see the club liquidated in 2008? Was ,except for vested interests, administration at that point a better option? We will never know. But we have since been loaded with debt and interest charges, are homeless, spent 7 of the SISU 12 years in L1 or L2, we have burnt many bridges with stakeholders and some fans, etc ..................... assuming we were always to survive from 2008 then are we really better off? I am not at all sure we are. A large part of that is down to SISU (but it wasnt just them). As custodians of the club, as investment agents for their clients they surely have to have done better these past 12 years. Big problems still remain to be solved, unchanged since 2008
Good owners? Better owners? bad owners? - no just owners with an awful history and a team batting above itself. We cant change the past so enjoy the present team and look forward to the teams future. We cant change the owners either so we just have to accept who they are and pray they make the right decisions for CCFC. Personally i will always have a healthy scepticism of their actions, plans and motives i do not feel they deserve my trust or that all of a sudden they have become beacons of good ownership.
On the other hand what MR has done for the club this time around has been tremendous
PUSB's
There are people at the club now that know how to run a team and the behind scenes functions. They know the importance of fan engagement and that has markedly improved from the toxic situation created. Anything that is going on behind the scenes between SISU and other stakeholders has been largely masked by the achievements this season on the pitch. I wonder if people would have been quite so conciliatory if the team was struggling at the lower end of L1.
I do not think for one minute that SISU or Joy Seppala have changed the objectives or the drivers for those objectives. This is about high risk investment strategies first and foremost. There has been no light bulb moment
MR is doing a great job in difficult circumstances. He has bought in to what needs to be done and the restrictions he faces and made it work. He was appointed 06/03/2017 after we had qualified for the final on 02/04/2017. He wont have changed much in a month, couldnt change the playing squad available so to credit it all to him in terms of winning the cup is a bit unfair. Even he said at the time it wasnt really down to him. If you credit him with the cup final win then you could easily also credit him with our relegation - which would also not be fair.
What you can not take away from MR is the promotion in difficult circumstances from L2 and the potential for Championship football next season - all down to him, his staff and his team. SISU are supportive and keen for success - why wouldnt they be but the biggest support is probably just letting MR get on with it and do his job
SISU have wiped the slate clean financially for CCFC twice. Once in 2008 and then again in 2013. Yet after twelve years of their tenure we still accrue debt, much of it subject to double digit interest rates. The aim is for the club to be self sufficient, something i would agree with for all clubs, but unless we source multi million pound player sales then we are nowhere close. In fact annual operating losses in the years to 31/05/2019 are on the rise
In 2008 we had total assets of £17,270,857 (based on what SBS&L took on) and in 2019 it was £1,676,045
In 2008 we had liabilities of £22,219,146 (based on what SBS&L took on) and in 2019 it was £21,439,765 (but then there was the debt converted to preference shares following the 2014 administration of £65m to add to that)
In 2008 we had a home in Coventry, 2019 we do not
"But they are backing MR " Passively perhaps but in terms of providing extra finance are they? Taking the accounts for 2018 and 2019 (the only full years under MR's management), SISU have put £500k in to the club. In the same period they have extracted £620,650 of the loans. In 2019 they started paying down the interest that has been accruing when they paid out £1.48m. Lets be clear they are perfectly entitled to do this. But what they are doing is extracting funds generated from football trading restricting the amount available to MR. They choose to charge the interest many other owners do not make any interest charge
Yes we have had lots of players join the squad for the 2017/18, 2018/19 and 2019/20 seasons but it was a necessity due to the number that have left. They had to be replaced otherwise we had no squad. That really isnt the owners backing the manager is it? even less so if look at the net amount put in or extracted by the owners.
To be fair in the early years they did put substantial amounts in to the club to keep it going - around 30m to 35m - however much of it resulted from their own mis-management and poor decision making. For example when they took over they had the whip hand on the rent to be paid and failed to address it. They failed to control expenditure, they appointed people not up to the task. It wasnt until 2011 when Seppala got involved personally that things started to change in terms of CCFC finances but at around that time relationships with other stakeholders became very toxic.
The idea of breaking the lease was quite clever to be honest but high risk. It relied on no one else being interested - they gambled with CCFC and miscalculated. The administration was driven by SISU, and the roots of it were in 2011 when SISU as managing agents arranged a charge in favour of ARVO to be levied over the CCFC assets. Yes the lease was broken but what the plan achieved though was a disconnect between club and the stadium but also a big chunk of fans. Despite the current success that has not been fully repaired for many. Not to mention creating the opportunity for the unwelcome sale of ACL to wasps
The second exile is less clear cut. The actions of the landlords wasps have created hardened positions and the likelyhood of a return is not great. SISU are entitled to take the actions they have, but must have known with reasonable certainty back in February 2019 what the likely reaction would be. No it isnt legal action against wasps but it does affect wasps and their ability to refinance. It would be naiive to think that wasps and their owner would not fight their own corner.
The current business model for CCFC implicitly seeks not to rely on the owners. SISU are lenders of last resort, they make sure the club doesnt fail to pay its way. That is not a bad thing it means the club will survive but it also protects the ability for SISU to take actions relating to their investment clients. However my own reading of things is that far from it being a well thought out plan it came about because they simply could not access further funding. The club had to live within its own cash means. No great innovative management strategy that but not a bad strategy even so.
The club relies on player sales to keep going in the SISU tenure the club has sold £24m of players and bought £9m. During MR's tenure covering 2018 & 2019 that has been sales £5.4m and purchases £1.1m. In 2019/20 you would estimate sales £8m (chaplin,bayliss & McCallum mainly) and purchases £1m? The club has to sell players to survive and recently they have been very good at it. Remember there have been no net new funds put in by the owners during that time, the club broke even in 2019 and had a small amount in the bank
The PR more recently has been better. The connection to the fans has developed. But is this the owners or is it driven by MR and people like Boddy? I would think it is the latter. But it also helps that the team is winning and on the verge of promotion again. By own feel is that any PR directly from SISU is for specific purposes and not aimed at the fans foremost
Personally i think people are letting the success on the pitch colour their judgement of SISU actions. For years there was tangible evidence of SISU being one of the worst scheming owners around. Recently they have been less focused on confrontation and let MR & co get on with improving the asset they bought. However is the lack of confrontation partly because other stakeholders have simply stopped engaging with SISU? It would however be quite wrong to think that this is all there is to it for SISU, their focus primarily is to recover their investment.
At the moment things are going well on the pitch and behind the scenes SISU can simply sit and wait, they dont have to say anything or do anything and luckily for them the team performance further masks that. They are apparently sure CCFC can have a further two years at St Andrews if they need it. But there is no long term security for the club, there is no tangible evidence of a return to Coventry or a new stadium. The biggest damage they have done is to create situations where the club has no real security either in property, or home but also amongst a large group of fans.. No i am not excusing the part others have played in all this particularly CCC but this thread is an assessment of SISU. It is not all SISU's fault but they have been the leading figure in the whole saga, more often than not leading the events with everyone else playing catch up and reacting to the SISU planning
Are we better off than we were in 2008. In the sense we are still here yes. But could CCC have afforded to see the club liquidated in 2008? Was ,except for vested interests, administration at that point a better option? We will never know. But we have since been loaded with debt and interest charges, are homeless, spent 7 of the SISU 12 years in L1 or L2, we have burnt many bridges with stakeholders and some fans, etc ..................... assuming we were always to survive from 2008 then are we really better off? I am not at all sure we are. A large part of that is down to SISU (but it wasnt just them). As custodians of the club, as investment agents for their clients they surely have to have done better these past 12 years. Big problems still remain to be solved, unchanged since 2008
Good owners? Better owners? bad owners? - no just owners with an awful history and a team batting above itself. We cant change the past so enjoy the present team and look forward to the teams future. We cant change the owners either so we just have to accept who they are and pray they make the right decisions for CCFC. Personally i will always have a healthy scepticism of their actions, plans and motives i do not feel they deserve my trust or that all of a sudden they have become beacons of good ownership.
On the other hand what MR has done for the club this time around has been tremendous
PUSB's
Last edited:
Nick
Administrator
Still think it's wrong to start trying to suck them off.
If anything it's the people like Robins, Boddy, Tynan Scope, Mark Hornby who deserve a lot of the credit.
The EU stuff only has an impact on Wasps if CCC are found to be in the wrong. Surely they knew the risks about refinancing and their finance when they jumped in saying they would be the richest club in the world?
If anything it's the people like Robins, Boddy, Tynan Scope, Mark Hornby who deserve a lot of the credit.
The EU stuff only has an impact on Wasps if CCC are found to be in the wrong. Surely they knew the risks about refinancing and their finance when they jumped in saying they would be the richest club in the world?
NortonSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
I try not to become immersed in the Sisu ownership, apart from to state I have no time for them and their Machiavellian reign. I too agree with OSB that Mark Robins is the catalyst to all the positive happenings at the club.
Where we are is a testament to the resolve of our manager and the team behind him and to our supporters who have been rewarded in sticking by the club. It could have been an absolute disaster( see Notts County for that sliding door)
Giving credit to the owners sticks in my throat, but you shouldn't criticize them for the disaster of their own making if you can't share some of the credit with them either. I do hope the next phase in our history pans out with a new deal at the Ricoh, a piece of the cake or a new stadium, good results on the pitch and increased support for the actual reason we are a club- our players who wear the Sky Blue on match day.
Where we are is a testament to the resolve of our manager and the team behind him and to our supporters who have been rewarded in sticking by the club. It could have been an absolute disaster( see Notts County for that sliding door)
Giving credit to the owners sticks in my throat, but you shouldn't criticize them for the disaster of their own making if you can't share some of the credit with them either. I do hope the next phase in our history pans out with a new deal at the Ricoh, a piece of the cake or a new stadium, good results on the pitch and increased support for the actual reason we are a club- our players who wear the Sky Blue on match day.
