School Protests

skybluetony176

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Aug 2, 2013
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No, it's an opinion of some muslims that it's offensive.

It is purely just their opinion.

You could say that it is fact that anything you can think of is offensive because somebody is offended.
Not some, almost all. That’s what a consensus is. It’s based on Hadiths that are centuries old. It isn’t a new belief, it isn’t a minority belief, on pure weight of numbers it’s not just offending “somebody” it’s offending a whole religion.
 

skybluetony176

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Well he's been made to look a bit of a fool with his brexit means worse animal welfare rubbish on this thread so he's going to double down on this, even though it is, of course, also bollocks.

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They’ve backtracked. There is literally a vote on the commons record stating which Tory MP’s voted against animal rights in the Brexit bill.
 

Nick

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Not some, almost all. That’s what a consensus is. It’s based on Hadiths that are centuries old. It isn’t a new belief, it isn’t a minority belief, on pure weight of numbers it’s not just offending “somebody” it’s offending a whole religion.
Yes, it isn't offending everybody is it? Therefore it's an opinion.

Does that mean it's fact that people can't eat bacon too?
 

TomRad85

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Not some, almost all. That’s what a consensus is. It’s based on Hadiths that are centuries old. It isn’t a new belief, it isn’t a minority belief, on pure weight of numbers it’s not just offending “somebody” it’s offending a whole religion.
If you're going off weight of numbers then less than 50% of the global population would be offended. Meaning its more inoffensive than offensive.

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skybluetony176

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If you're going off weight of numbers then less than 50% of the global population would be offended. Meaning its more inoffensive than offensive.

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That’s assuming that that the remaining 50% don’t find it offensive. Jews for instance have very similar beliefs on images of god. Images of Buddha can be very offensive to certain Buddhist demographics even though it’s widely used by Buddhist themselves in temples. A lot of other religions have sympathy to Islam on the subject. Some people who have no belief whatsoever just think that it’s unnecessary to go out your way to offend belief systems and people who follow that belief. I suspect of you really wanted to do a head count of people who are offended I suspect that the opposite of what you assume is true is true.
 

skybluetony176

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Yes, it isn't offending everybody is it? Therefore it's an opinion.

Does that mean it's fact that people can't eat bacon too?
So are you saying that Muslims don’t have the right to be offended?
Fuck me that bacon argument is as about a stupid argument you could make. For the simple reason that for it to be an equivalent you’d have to force feed bacon to a Muslim. Which of course would be offensive.
 

mrtrench

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Aug 17, 2008
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Somewhere between the waitress and her table.
They’ve backtracked. There is literally a vote on the commons record stating which Tory MP’s voted against animal rights in the Brexit bill.
No they didn't. They voted against adding it as an amendment to the Brexit bill. Context and nuance are important.
 

TomRad85

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That’s assuming that that the remaining 50% don’t find it offensive. Jews for instance have very similar beliefs on images of god. Images of Buddha can be very offensive to certain Buddhist demographics even though it’s widely used by Buddhist themselves in temples. A lot of other religions have sympathy to Islam on the subject. Some people who have no belief whatsoever just think that it’s unnecessary to go out your way to offend belief systems and people who follow that belief. I suspect of you really wanted to do a head count of people who are offended I suspect that the opposite of what you assume is true is true.
Don't you ever get tired being you? I get tired after exchanging around 3 messages with you.

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dubed

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So are you saying that Muslims don’t have the right to be offended?
Fuck me that bacon argument is as about a stupid argument you could make. For the simple reason that for it to be an equivalent you’d have to force feed bacon to a Muslim. Which of course would be offensive.

Tony, unless I've missed something then nobody has said that it's not a fact that some (probably most) muslims are offended; but it's not a fact that the cartoons are offensive, full stop i.e. to all people. Like many arguments on this forum, the nuance of the argument seems to get lost and folks just go round in circles until one gives up!
 
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TomRad85

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Argue the point not the person.
You have no point. Your animal welfare brexit hyperbole was nonsense. We were already ahead of most the EU, now we'll go yet further ahead.
You also refuse to accept that offense is taken, not given. Nothing is offensive as fact, especially not this, and i suspect you wouldn't be so keen to defend other religions for whatever reason. You will however continue to flog this dead horse and we'll go round in circles until the end of time. So as I said, its tiring and also pointless.


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skybluetony176

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Tony, unless I've missed something then nobody has said that it's not a fact that some (probably most) muslims are offended; but it's not a fact that the cartoons are offensive, full stop i.e. to all people. Like many arguments on this forum, the nuance of the argument seems to get lost and folks just go round in circles until one gives up!
Some people on here clearly think that they’re not offensive full stop. The only actual point I’ve made is that that they’re offensive to Islam as a general consensus so therefore they are offensive. Some have tried to downplay that to some as if it’s a minority of Muslims when it’s clearly a consensus. Someone has then tried to say that only a lesser percentage of the world is offended so it can’t be a fact when in actual fact Christianity is a minority when it comes religions that aren’t offended by imagery, even then certain sects of Christianity are also offended by imagery. There is actually a word for it, aniconism.
 

skybluetony176

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You have no point. Your animal welfare brexit hyperbole was nonsense. We were already ahead of most the EU, now we'll go yet further ahead.
You also refuse to accept that offense is taken, not given. Nothing is offensive as fact, especially not this, and i suspect you wouldn't be so keen to defend other religions for whatever reason. You will however continue to flog this dead horse and we'll go round in circles until the end of time. So as I said, its tiring and also pointless.


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Of course offence is given. If I choose to call you a c**t (I wouldn’t by the way) I’d be doing that with the intent of offending. It’s like Grendull with his homo erotic fantasist put downs. He’s not doing that as a compliment, he’s doing it in an attempt to offend me (presumably because he’s homophobic so thinks it’s a useful tool to offend someone). Luckily I’m not homophobic so I’m not offended. He’s giving it but I’m not taking it (no pun intended).
 

TomRad85

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Of course offence is given. If I choose to call you a c**t (I wouldn’t by the way) I’d be doing that with the intent of offending. It’s like Grendull with his homo erotic fantasist put downs. He’s not doing that as a compliment, he’s doing it in an attempt to offend me (presumably because he’s homophobic so thinks it’s a useful tool to offend someone). Luckily I’m not homophobic so I’m not offended. He’s giving it but I’m not taking it (no pun intended).
But I can choose to ignore you calling me a c**t and get over it or I could come to your place of work and demand you get fired for calling me a c**t. Which is what these people are doing. I of course wouldn't do that, I think people that attempt to have other people fired are lower than a snakes belly.

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shmmeee

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That’s assuming that that the remaining 50% don’t find it offensive. Jews for instance have very similar beliefs on images of god. Images of Buddha can be very offensive to certain Buddhist demographics even though it’s widely used by Buddhist themselves in temples. A lot of other religions have sympathy to Islam on the subject. Some people who have no belief whatsoever just think that it’s unnecessary to go out your way to offend belief systems and people who follow that belief. I suspect of you really wanted to do a head count of people who are offended I suspect that the opposite of what you assume is true is true.
People get respect, ideas don’t.
 

skybluetony176

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But I can choose to ignore you calling me a c**t and get over it or I could come to your place of work and demand you get fired for calling me a c**t. Which is what these people are doing. I of course wouldn't do that, I think people that attempt to have other people fired are lower than a snakes belly.

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Which is fair enough. Doesn’t mean that people don’t have the right to be offended or that the intent was to offend in the first place.
Although I have sympathy for the teacher I can’t help but think he isn’t the sharpest tool in the box. As far as I know showing the images isn’t part of the curriculum so the teacher had to go and look for the images, had to have seen how offensive they were going to be to certain members of the classroom, must have got a good impression of what reaction showing those images would get and at no point thought to himself that perhaps it might not be a good idea to show these images. On that basis alone I’d question his ability to teach. Not saying he deserves the sack but F me that was a stupid idea.
 

Grendel

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I guess if most Muslims in the world would be offended by a cartoon of Mickey Mouse the Tonester would be advocating a boycott of Disneyland
 

skybluetony176

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I guess if most Muslims in the world would be offended by a cartoon of Mickey Mouse the Tonester would be advocating a boycott of Disneyland
So you’re inventing imaginary situations and imaginary responses to those imaginary situations. Clever stuff. What’s it proving exactly except you detachment from reality?
 

TomRad85

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I guess if most Muslims in the world would be offended by a cartoon of Mickey Mouse the Tonester would be advocating a boycott of Disneyland
Scary thing is all you'd have to do is take that picture of Mickey Mouse and write Muhammed above it with an arrow pointing at Mickey and you'd have the lynch mob turn up at your work place. With the full backing of certain forum members too.

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mrtrench

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Somewhere between the waitress and her table.
Tony, think about the stuff that some of these extremist Muslims do and say. Then replace the word "Muslim" with "Neo-Nazi".

Then consider if you still support them.

I imagine you think you're being anti-racism. And yet nobody here has even touched upon that... we're criticising the behaviour of some Muslims. The behaviour. Of some.

Just as we'd have a problem with Neo-Nazis throwing homosexuals off tall buildings or protesting outside schools because they taught about homosexuality or showed a pejorative cartoon of Hitler.

You're like a terrier biting the leg of a mannequin. You never let go but you've been misdirected.
 

David O'Day

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So you’re inventing imaginary situations and imaginary responses to those imaginary situations. Clever stuff. What’s it proving exactly except you detachment from reality?
His life is a detachment from reality
 

oakey

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This reminds me of an RE lesson I used to do with Year 7 - Belief, Fact or Opinion?
10 statements to sort.
Tricky to define the difference between a belief and an opinion but it used to really kick off over the statement:
'Murder is wrong'.
Loads of kids had it down as a fact. I reserved my strongest disapproval for kids who thought it an opinion!
It was a gteat lesson!
 

David O'Day

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People get respect, ideas don’t.
I mean if people didn't have any ideas then why would you respect them?

Sorry but that was nowhere near as clever as you thought it would be.
 

dubed

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I mean if people didn't have any ideas then why would you respect them?

Sorry but that was nowhere near as clever as you thought it would be.
Can I just ask, you appear to spend your entire existence on this board expelling anger and resentment. I'm not entirely without sin myself, but something is hurting you.
 

Nick

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So are you saying that Muslims don’t have the right to be offended?
Fuck me that bacon argument is as about a stupid argument you could make. For the simple reason that for it to be an equivalent you’d have to force feed bacon to a Muslim. Which of course would be offensive.
They have the right to be offended about what they want, hence it's their opinion and not fact.

It is also their opinion about not wanting to eat bacon, does that mean it's fact nobody should eat bacon?
 

mrtrench

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Aug 17, 2008
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Somewhere between the waitress and her table.
This reminds me of an RE lesson I used to do with Year 7 - Belief, Fact or Opinion?
10 statements to sort.
Tricky to define the difference between a belief and an opinion but it used to really kick off over the statement:
'Murder is wrong'.
Loads of kids had it down as a fact. I reserved my strongest disapproval for kids who thought it an opinion!
It was a gteat lesson!
"Murder is wrong" is an opinion. It's an opinion almost universally held but it's still an opinion. "Fact" means something different. I picked this up from Google and it expresses my opinion on this better than I could:

" A fact is a statement that can be proven true or false. An opinion is an expression of a person's feelings that cannot be proven. Opinions can be based on facts or emotions and sometimes they are meant to deliberately mislead others. "

You cannot prove that murder is wrong - hence it's an opinion.
 

shmmeee

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I mean if people didn't have any ideas then why would you respect them?

Sorry but that was nowhere near as clever as you thought it would be.
“If people didn’t have any ideas why would you respect them”

what?

Do you want to try and make that make sense?

People deserve respect because they’re people. I respect Pete as a human being even if I think his belief in Jesus is silly.

Pete’s belief in Jesus does not get respect from me, it’s an idea about the world and is open to debate and ridicule like any idea. Just like my belief in left wing economics or that Marvel movies are great, or that Ben Sheaf is a decent player, or whatever.

I can challenge Pete’s ideas and remain respectful to him as a person. This isn’t a hard concept, it’s the cornerstone of all liberal thought.
 

PVA

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No, it's an opinion of some muslims that it's offensive.

It is purely just their opinion.
I'm not getting involved in the argument itself, but I think you were missing the point slightly here.

It is of course their opinion if they find it offensive... but it's also fine to say it's a fact some Muslims find it offensive.

Like you can say it's a fact some people think Biamou is amazing, and it's a fact some people think Biamou is shit. It's individual opinions, but you can make factual statements about those opinions.
 

Nick

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I'm not getting involved in the argument itself, but I think you were missing the point slightly here.

It is of course their opinion if they find it offensive... but it's also fine to say it's a fact some Muslims find it offensive.

Like you can say it's a fact some people think Biamou is amazing, and it's a fact some people think Biamou is shit. It's individual opinions, but you can make factual statements about those opinions.
In which case you could say it's fact that pretty much anything is offensive because somebody will be offended by it.

I don't doubt some Muslims find it offensive, it is Tony saying "It is fact that it is offensive" which I was questioning.