Oh Jeremy Corbyn (2 Viewers)

martcov · Nov 9, 2017

skybluegod said:
Yeah that’s it, i agree. or if she sticks it out, and magically pulls a cat out of her arse, and actually gets a good brexit deal, I can see the conservatives getting back in ofc

I can’t see the EU making any compromises. Why should they? The UK is split. The government is falling apart. The EU is not the one leaving. They have time on their side, whereas the UK has to convince companies that Britain is going places or else investors will look elsewhere.

The last thing they are going to do is to help the conservatives. They allowed Brexit to happen. If anyone could get a good Brexit deal it would be Labour. Corbyn was welcomed by the centre left Parties of the EU. I’ve got to believe that Labour could come to some of compromise by letting the Tories burn themselves out, and then coming in with a more moderate approach - in the assumption that they win the next election. By that time the „let’s stick two fingers up at the EU“ crowd will have gone very quiet.

martcov · Nov 9, 2017

Ian1779 said:
It's kind of ironic that it's the presence of these 2 that have energised younger people into politics. There is no-one in the Tories that inspires young people.

Not just young people.

I am 62 and the Tories are certainly not inspiring me. Brexit has energised me no end. But, unfortunately I have no vote.

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

Ian1779 said:
It's kind of ironic that it's the presence of these 2 that have energised younger people into politics. There is no-one in the Tories that inspires young people.

Hmm disagree, they haven’t energised young people into politics, they made a load of promises to young people which they actually couldn’t fund and because they don’t follow politics, they didn’t realise this and so voted for them. I’m part of that generation, and it wasn’t a reason for me to get inspired. Neither of them inspire young people they are just offering more to them than the tories

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

martcov said:
I can’t see the EU making any compromises. Why should they? The UK is split. The government is falling apart. The EU is not the one leaving. They have time on their side, whereas the UK has to convince companies that Britain is going places or else investors will look elsewhere.

The last thing they are going to do is to help the conservatives. They allowed Brexit to happen. If anyone could get a good Brexit deal it would be Labour. Corbyn was welcomed by the centre left Parties of the EU. I’ve got to believe that Labour could come to some of compromise by letting the Tories burn themselves out, and then coming in with a more moderate approach - in the assumption that they win the next election. By that time the „let’s stick two fingers up at the EU“ crowd will have gone very quiet.

Where did I say they would make compromises? I literally said she would have to pull a cat out of her ass?
I don’t think Labour would get this good deal you talk about but I’m too tired to debate why

Ian1779 · Nov 9, 2017

skybluegod said:
Hmm disagree, they haven’t energised young people into politics, they made a load of promises to young people which they actually couldn’t fund and because they don’t follow politics, they didn’t realise this and so voted for them. I’m part of that generation, and it wasn’t a reason for me to get inspired. Neither of them inspire young people they are just offering more to them than the tories

So what manifesto promises could they not fund? Did you not see the costed manifesto.. because it would appear that the Tory costing never saw the light of day.

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

Ian1779 said:
So what manifesto promises could they not fund? Did you not see the costed manifesto.. because it would appear that the Tory costing never saw the light of day.

We have been through this in the thread already read back through

Astute · Nov 9, 2017

chiefdave said:
How is it legal? He claimed a VAT rebate of £3m he was only entitled to if the jet was used solely for business, 30 seconds on his social media is enough to see it was also used for personal trips.

Not to mention that some of these things aren’t loopholes. As Panorama showed those responsible for the super rich’s accounting are writing the laws themselves! How can that be right?

Not entirely true.

The papers call it a 3m tax dodge. But it isn't. If it was used 2/3 business and 1/3 private he would have been allowed a 2/3 rebate for the business usage. But he has taken the whole rebate.

Or don't we believe that papers are involved n sensationalism of headlines?

Astute · Nov 9, 2017

martcov said:
I can’t see the EU making any compromises. Why should they? The UK is split. The government is falling apart. The EU is not the one leaving. They have time on their side, whereas the UK has to convince companies that Britain is going places or else investors will look elsewhere.

The last thing they are going to do is to help the conservatives. They allowed Brexit to happen. If anyone could get a good Brexit deal it would be Labour. Corbyn was welcomed by the centre left Parties of the EU. I’ve got to believe that Labour could come to some of compromise by letting the Tories burn themselves out, and then coming in with a more moderate approach - in the assumption that they win the next election. By that time the „let’s stick two fingers up at the EU“ crowd will have gone very quiet.

So Corbyn also wants out of the EU but they would look more favourably at him?

mrtrench · Nov 9, 2017

Ian1779 said:
So what manifesto promises could they not fund? Did you not see the costed manifesto.. because it would appear that the Tory costing never saw the light of day.

Come on Iain. We all now they *said* it was costed but it was completely mad and unrealistic. None of the nationalisations were costed. They assumed that all they had to do was ask companies and wealthy people to pay more tax and they would cough up - as if tax rates and tax take is linear (it isn't and they bloody well know it - which is why they are planning for a capital exodus).

The Tories don't need to state that the manifesto is costed because everyone knows they will do their best not to spend money they don't have. The mere fact that Labour had to state it is indicative of what they know people think about them.

Ian1779 · Nov 9, 2017

skybluegod said:
We have been through this in the thread already read back through

I have - I'm still waiting for someone to answer the question... with some actual facts.

Ian1779 · Nov 9, 2017

mrtrench said:
The Tories don't need to state that the manifesto is costed because everyone knows they will do their best not to spend money they don't have.

It's shit like this which will mean the Tories are done for.

martcov · Nov 9, 2017

Astute said:
So Corbyn also wants out of the EU but they would look more favourably at him?

yes, because he will stay in the customs union.

martcov · Nov 9, 2017

skybluegod said:
Where did I say they would make compromises? I literally said she would have to pull a cat out of her ass?
I don’t think Labour would get this good deal you talk about but I’m too tired to debate why

She hasn't got a cat up her arse as far as I know, so it's bye bye May. There is no good deal, but Labour are in a better position top obtain a compromise than Davis and co..

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

Ian1779 said:
I have - I'm still waiting for someone to answer the question... with some actual facts.

If you have then people don’t need to repeat the same points. Just go back and recap the stuff that isn’t costed. And astute has given you an answer. Saying they will tax the highest earners more, isn’t costing. And he also explained why.

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

martcov said:
She hasn't got a cat up her arse as far as I know, so it's bye bye May. There is no good deal, but Labour are in a better position top obtain a compromise than Davis and co..

If she didn’t you wouldn’t know which is where the saying is from which is my point and I said I don’t think she has one either. I think she needs to go.
Are they? What evidence is there of that? And a better deal based on who’s opinion?

martcov · Nov 9, 2017

skybluegod said:
If she didn’t you wouldn’t know which is where the saying is from which is my point and I said I don’t think she has one either. I think she needs to go.
Are they? What evidence is there of that? And a better deal based on who’s opinion?

Well at the moment it looks like no deal.. at least before next year. I don't know what the final deal will be, but if May goes quickly and we have an election, then it is no deal based on how far we have got to at this point. I don't think we could be negotiating from a weaker position than now and i do think Corbyn could take another tack without losing face. The present Tory government has maneuvered itself into an impasse which it doesn't seem to be able to get out of.

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

martcov said:
Well at the moment it looks like no deal.. at least before next year. I don't know what the final deal will be, but if May goes quickly and we have an election, then it is no deal based on how far we have got to at this point. I don't think we could be negotiating from a weaker position than now and i do think Corbyn could take another tack without losing face. The present Tory government has maneuvered itself into an impasse which it doesn't seem to be able to get out of.

Don’t agree, this was always always going to happen, both sides have said as much, both sides expected the stall in negotiations as neither side wishes to budge, I think a deal will be agreed, and I do think we will compromise.
I don’t disagree about the current government being shit. It is. But I do disagree about Corbyn. And i also disagree about another election, don’t think you can call for yet another election just to get labour in power. The people have voted enough, it’s time to let the government get on with it, let them sink or swim. They are elected to make the tough decisions, we can’t keep voting just because some of us don’t like it.

Grendel · Nov 9, 2017

Ian1779 said:
It's kind of ironic that it's the presence of these 2 that have energised younger people into politics. There is no-one in the Tories that inspires young people.

Indeed - the youths last torch bearer was the equally repugnant Nick Clegg

skyblueinBaku · Nov 9, 2017

Grendel said:
Indeed - the youths last torch bearer was the equally repugnant Nick Clegg

True, but Clegg never had any real power. It's very worrying that Corbyn may get into power.

Astute · Nov 9, 2017

martcov said:
yes, because he will stay in the customs union.

What makes you say that?

Juncker says that we can't cherry pick the bits we want ro keep. It is either in or out.

So is Juncker lying or has Corbyn got something on Juncker?

Grendel · Nov 9, 2017

martcov said:
yes, because he will stay in the customs union.

Nope. McDonnell confirmed they would only do so for a transitional period. Seriously if you think Corbyn and McDonnell are pro Europe you really are a clown. They’ve voted against every EU integration legislation. They want out and they will definitely want out the customs union. It’s totally against their beliefs and ideology. The noise made in July was politicising.

Grendel · Nov 9, 2017

Astute said:
What makes you say that?

Juncker says that we can't cherry pick the bits we want ro keep. It is either in or out.

So is Juncker lying or has Corbyn got something on Juncker?

Neither Martcov just hasn’t read what McDonnell actually said.

Sick Boy · Nov 9, 2017

martcov said:
Not just young people.

I am 62 and the Tories are certainly not inspiring me. Brexit has energised me no end. But, unfortunately I have no vote.

A citizen should have a vote for life, IMO.

martcov · Nov 9, 2017

Astute said:
What makes you say that?

Juncker says that we can't cherry pick the bits we want ro keep. It is either in or out.

So is Juncker lying or has Corbyn got something on Juncker?

We don’t know, but something has to give. I think the Tories have had it. Corbyn can flip either way.

martcov · Nov 9, 2017

Sick Boy said:
A citizen should have a vote for life, IMO.

Yes, but it doesn’t work like that. They just postponed my language exam here until the end of January. I need that for my German/ EU citizenship. Really annoying. Got all other details. They could now say get them all again as by January they are out of date. End of January I am in Berlin and I don’t know how I can be in two places at once.. Haven’t had a vote for years - apart from municipal elections.

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

martcov said:
We don’t know, but something has to give. I think the Tories have had it. Corbyn can flip either way.

No there is only one way we go with Corbyn and that’s down.
It’s the same with May. Neither party is good enough or was ready for a leave vote, and both are very weak.
Both parties need a massive reset, but it’s never gonna happen.
And even if Corbyn did want to stay in the custom union etc. We would then have to give a lot of compromise and do you think that will please the 52% who voted to leave? A small majority yes, but a majority nonetheless.
You are saying Corbyn would be better in power because he would do things you want, but not everybody wants that, which is the real problem for May. May can not handle the strong characters, on either side. Nobody else is willing to be the front seat driver but they are all willing to back seat drive and let her crash and burn.

Ian1779 · Nov 9, 2017

May hasn't got a fucking clue what she's doing... and her morally bankrupt government and party are essentially the SISU of politics.

oakey · Nov 9, 2017

If only there were a reset button. Perhaps a handbrake would be better.
Sadly, everyone seems determined to fight over the gear stick whilst the vehicle approaches the cliff.

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

Ian1779 said:
May hasn't got a fucking clue what she's doing... and her morally bankrupt government and party are essentially the SISU of politics.

Because labour are saints are they? You can’t use one stick with the tories and not with labour. May is awful, but Labour and Corbyn are no better.

Grendel · Nov 9, 2017

Ian1779 said:
May hasn't got a fucking clue what she's doing... and her morally bankrupt government and party are essentially the SISU of politics.

Odd then they had the biggest mandate in terms of votes for decades don’t you think?

Ian1779 · Nov 9, 2017

skybluegod said:
Because labour are saints are they? You can’t use one stick with the tories and not with labour. May is awful, but Labour and Corbyn are no better.

There's a gulf of difference... like abstaining to vote on a pause of Universal Credit, driving the NHS and education sector to absolute ruin so it can turn a profit for their investor friends. Labour may not be perfect at all but compared to the vile, nasty, spiteful party who would see people starve to death rather than reduce the profit margin of companies that pay fuck all tax in the first place??

Luckily most of the public have finally woken up to the fact they've been a doormat for so long.

Ian1779 · Nov 9, 2017

Grendel said:
Odd then they had the biggest mandate in terms of votes for decades don’t you think?

People won't make that same mistake again. The print media has had its day in the sun.

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

Ian1779 said:
There's a gulf of difference... like abstaining to vote on a pause of Universal Credit, driving the NHS and education sector to absolute ruin so it can turn a profit for their investor friends. Labour may not be perfect at all but compared to the vile, nasty, spiteful party who would see people starve to death rather than reduce the profit margin of companies that pay fuck all tax in the first place??

Luckily most of the public have finally woken up to the fact they've been a doormat for so long.

Thing is you don’t have a reasoned opinion so it’s impossible to have a reasoned debate. You will vote Labour even if they are the next Nazi party.
SB, Clint, Mart have all offered reasoned debate, and have conceded in some areas. You just blame the conservatives for everything, and praise labour for everything else

Ian1779 · Nov 9, 2017

skybluegod said:
Thing is you don’t have a reasoned opinion so it’s impossible to have a reasoned debate. You will vote Labour even if they are the next Nazi party.
SB, Clint, Mart have all offered reasoned debate, and have conceded in some areas. You just blame the conservatives for everything, and praise labour for everything else

You give a reasonable topic and let's debate away....

Astute · Nov 10, 2017

Sick Boy said:
A citizen should have a vote for life, IMO.

Yes they should.

Mart is a German citizen and has been for many years.

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