Oh Jeremy Corbyn (2 Viewers)

mrtrench · Nov 7, 2017

I occasionally look at the surveys on YouGov. There are two interesting stats from recent surveys.

70% of Labour voters believe it is unacceptable for the Queen to have money invested off-shore, even if it is within the law.
31% of Labour voters say that if they themselves were introduced to an opportunity to pay less tax within the law, they would not do so.

chiefdave · Nov 7, 2017

mrtrench said:
70% of Labour voters believe it is unacceptable for the Queen to have money invested off-shore, even if it is within the law.
31% of Labour voters say that if they themselves were introduced to an opportunity to pay less tax within the law, they would not do so.

It surely depends what that opportunity is and how much we're talking about. Some bloke realising he can claim a few quid in tax relief because he washes his uniform at home is a long way from companies registered off shore to avoid millions in tax.

Looks at Hamilton's jet purchase. I doubt you'd find many people that agree it was reasonable for him to get a VAT refund.

mrtrench · Nov 7, 2017

There was no context in the question, so the opportunity and how much it was are hypothetical. I'm simply showing that 70% of Labour supporters disagree with the Queen investing offshore (without any details on exactly what is going on), but would not decline to engage in a hypothetical tax-saving scheme for themselves (I'm being slightly sneaky as I added together the don't knows and the ones that would definitely do it... according to the poll). Vile and nasty if you do it, but not for me...

I'm not supporting Lewis Hamilton, if that is indeed what he did. I've been offered off-shore tax dodges myself and always declined.

clint van damme · Nov 8, 2017

mrtrench said:
I occasionally look at the surveys on YouGov. There are two interesting stats from recent surveys.

70% of Labour voters believe it is unacceptable for the Queen to have money invested off-shore, even if it is within the law.
31% of Labour voters say that if they themselves were introduced to an opportunity to pay less tax within the law, they would not do so.

the most surprising thing to come out of the Paradise papers for me was how much money Mrs Browns boys has made, it's absolute gash.

Kingokings204 · Nov 8, 2017

chiefdave said:
It surely depends what that opportunity is and how much we're talking about. Some bloke realising he can claim a few quid in tax relief because he washes his uniform at home is a long way from companies registered off shore to avoid millions in tax.

Looks at Hamilton's jet purchase. I doubt you'd find many people that agree it was reasonable for him to get a VAT refund.

View attachment 8326

I agree but it's completely legal though.

rob9872 · Nov 8, 2017

Why wouldn't his accountant find the loopholes? That's what he's paid to do. Sure the emphasis should be on closing the net and stopping it rather than complain about those who have taken advantage. How many of you can honestly say that if you had an opportunity to pay less to the state and keep more in your pocket, that you wouldn't? I don't think for one minute LEwis or many of the others were sitting at home trying to figure out ways to pay less, someone would have said if I do this then you get to keep £3m extra and it's within the law - who in their right mind would say" no please don't do that"?

Kingokings204 · Nov 8, 2017

rob9872 said:
Why wouldn't his accountant find the loopholes? That's what he's paid to do. Sure the emphasis should be on closing the net and stopping it rather than complain about those who have taken advantage. How many of you can honestly say that if you had an opportunity to pay less to the state and keep more in your pocket, that you wouldn't? I don't think for one minute LEwis or many of the others were sitting at home trying to figure out ways to pay less, someone would have said if I do this then you get to keep £3m extra and it's within the law - who in their right mind would say" no please don't do that"?

Exactly. Well said. Perfectly legal.

It's not change either is it. It's 3 million pounds. Vast sum of money.

clint van damme · Nov 8, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Exactly. Well said. Perfectly legal.

It's not change either is it. It's 3 million pounds. Vast sum of money.

at a time when everyone else is feeling austerity, (which isn't actually working), all in it together so the tories said, my arse! Why can't they just be honest and say the banks fucked up and the man in the street is going to pay for it. I'd have more respect for them if they did, (well, actually, I wouldn't).

jimmyhillsfanclub · Nov 8, 2017

rob9872 said:
Why wouldn't his accountant find the loopholes? That's what he's paid to do. Sure the emphasis should be on closing the net and stopping it rather than complain about those who have taken advantage. How many of you can honestly say that if you had an opportunity to pay less to the state and keep more in your pocket, that you wouldn't? I don't think for one minute LEwis or many of the others were sitting at home trying to figure out ways to pay less, someone would have said if I do this then you get to keep £3m extra and it's within the law - who in their right mind would say" no please don't do that"?

Well if I was as wealthy as Lewis Hamilton I'd take the responsibility of that wealth seriously........the blokes complete financial arrangements stink as far as I can see.......greedy little c**t.

chiefdave · Nov 8, 2017

How is it legal? He claimed a VAT rebate of £3m he was only entitled to if the jet was used solely for business, 30 seconds on his social media is enough to see it was also used for personal trips.

Not to mention that some of these things aren’t loopholes. As Panorama showed those responsible for the super rich’s accounting are writing the laws themselves! How can that be right?

Grendel · Nov 8, 2017

rob9872 said:
Why wouldn't his accountant find the loopholes? That's what he's paid to do. Sure the emphasis should be on closing the net and stopping it rather than complain about those who have taken advantage. How many of you can honestly say that if you had an opportunity to pay less to the state and keep more in your pocket, that you wouldn't? I don't think for one minute LEwis or many of the others were sitting at home trying to figure out ways to pay less, someone would have said if I do this then you get to keep £3m extra and it's within the law - who in their right mind would say" no please don't do that"?

Correct. I lease cars from work but am allowed to claim private mileage rate as it’s a purchase free arrangement. When I used to do loads of miles I was legitimately claiming more tax rebate than I was paying for an £80,000 car. It was great!

I still claim back now a much smaller amount and the higher tax relief for all charitable donations. If I could invest and not pay any tax of course I would.

skybluegod · Nov 8, 2017

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Well if I was as wealthy as Lewis Hamilton I'd take the responsibility of that wealth seriously........the blokes complete financial arrangements stink as far as I can see.......greedy little c**t.

That’s what everyone likes to think, everyone gets on their high horse, but psychology has proven in numerous different tests that what people say they will do and what they actually do when presented with the situation is totally different.
Is what he doing morally just? Well that’s a matter of opinion. But at the end of the day what he has done isn’t illegal and so that’s that.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 8, 2017

rob9872 said:
Why wouldn't his accountant find the loopholes? That's what he's paid to do. Sure the emphasis should be on closing the net and stopping it rather than complain about those who have taken advantage. How many of you can honestly say that if you had an opportunity to pay less to the state and keep more in your pocket, that you wouldn't? I don't think for one minute LEwis or many of the others were sitting at home trying to figure out ways to pay less, someone would have said if I do this then you get to keep £3m extra and it's within the law - who in their right mind would say" no please don't do that"?

Can do both?

Doesn't mean I like it, hope they close loopholes and chase him for whatever they can, but if he hasn't broken the law, then it's frustrating but so be it.

That being said, people who sail close to the law sometimes risk sailing the wrong side of it, and that's when I'd have no sympathy if that ever happened...

clint van damme · Nov 8, 2017

skybluegod said:
That’s what everyone likes to think, everyone gets on their high horse, but psychology has proven in numerous different tests that what people say they will do and what they actually do when presented with the situation is totally different.
Is what he doing morally just? Well that’s a matter of opinion. But at the end of the day what he has done isn’t illegal and so that’s that.

You could apply that to sisu.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 8, 2017

clint van damme said:
You could apply that to sisu.

And alas, that's why they can't be touched or get their cummupance either.

Kingokings204 · Nov 8, 2017

chiefdave said:
How is it legal? He claimed a VAT rebate of £3m he was only entitled to if the jet was used solely for business, 30 seconds on his social media is enough to see it was also used for personal trips.

Not to mention that some of these things aren’t loopholes. As Panorama showed those responsible for the super rich’s accounting are writing the laws themselves! How can that be right?

With respect You've completely contradicted yourself there.

You said how is it legal and then said they are writing the laws themselves.

I agree with the last bit they make the rules to suit them and there future careers and friends. Just ask Anthony Blair he has had a good stab at it.

Kingokings204 · Nov 8, 2017

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Well if I was as wealthy as Lewis Hamilton I'd take the responsibility of that wealth seriously........the blokes complete financial arrangements stink as far as I can see.......greedy little c**t.

I think we all agree on that. The point is Hamilton has avoided 3m in tax and that is a sum worth saving if there is a loophole and a legal way round it.

Close the loopholes and create laws that stop this. Unfortunately it will never happen.

We could also talk about Apple and their headquarters in Dublin and Luxembourg with junckers tax haven country. They all do it.

Dare I say it, if it meant saving 3m legally on a technicality would you do it? I would.

chiefdave · Nov 8, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
With respect You've completely contradicted yourself there.

Not really, with respect to Hamilton the law is clear. He's only entitled to the VAT refund if the jet is solely for business use. Not really sure how a two day holiday with his mates comes under business use.

The point about financial advisors and accounts writing the laws was with reference to what was shown on Panorama. A lot of top end accountants who service the super rich have set up shop on the Isle of Man where the local government and 'advise' the local government on amendments to tax laws.

Its absolutely correct that most people would pay as little tax as possible but something like Grendal is talking about, which is clearly the tax laws working as designed, is a world away from owning a private jet and it being leased by several different companies before you rent back your own plane.

Kingokings204 · Nov 8, 2017

chiefdave said:
Not really, with respect to Hamilton the law is clear. He's only entitled to the VAT refund if the jet is solely for business use. Not really sure how a two day holiday with his mates comes under business use.
View attachment 8339

The point about financial advisors and accounts writing the laws was with reference to what was shown on Panorama. A lot of top end accountants who service the super rich have set up shop on the Isle of Man where the local government and 'advise' the local government on amendments to tax laws.

Its absolutely correct that most people would pay as little tax as possible but something like Grendal is talking about, which is clearly the tax laws working as designed, is a world away from owning a private jet and it being leased by several different companies before you rent back your own plane.

That's all well and good but the point remains he hasn't been convicted of anything and he hasn't done anything illegal.

Look, I don't want the smarmy git to get 3m back in tax when I'm guessing 3m isn't the end of the world for him personally especially when our NHS et al are in such need but if he hasn't done anything illegal I don't see an argument.

We need the rules changing which they never will be. Someone somewhere will always be ahead of the game.

chiefdave · Nov 8, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
That's all well and good but the point remains he hasn't been convicted of anything and he hasn't done anything illegal.

Not being convicted is not necessarily the same as not doing something illegal.

He got a VAT refund on the basis that the private jet was solely for business use. His social media clearly shows the jet regularly used for non-business purposes. So how is he legally entitled to the refund? Maybe I'm missing something.

martcov · Nov 9, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
I think we all agree on that. The point is Hamilton has avoided 3m in tax and that is a sum worth saving if there is a loophole and a legal way round it.

Close the loopholes and create laws that stop this. Unfortunately it will never happen.

We could also talk about Apple and their headquarters in Dublin and Luxembourg with junckers tax haven country. They all do it.

Dare I say it, if it meant saving 3m legally on a technicality would you do it? I would.

We could also talk about us with our crown dependencies being the biggest tax haven In the world. Which is why we arligning ourselves with Luxemburg and Malta to weaken the EUs attempts to reduce the amount of tax in tax havens.

Sick Boy · Nov 9, 2017

Another Tory shambles then, I wonder how long the strong and stable government will last?

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

Both parties are a shambles at the moment.
The government seems set on shooting itself in the foot at the moment, one problem after another.
May needs to go, but it would be such poor timing as negotiations would probably have to start all over again?
Labour aren’t much better at the moment, as they are just as bad, the parties of this country are just so weak.

Kingokings204 · Nov 9, 2017

chiefdave said:
Not being convicted is not necessarily the same as not doing something illegal.

He got a VAT refund on the basis that the private jet was solely for business use. His social media clearly shows the jet regularly used for non-business purposes. So how is he legally entitled to the refund? Maybe I'm missing something.

I agree with you. Clearly it isn't for business sole use. My point I guess is if I and you can see that then people smarter than us and Qualified can see that. He therefore would be watched and accounted for.

Of course it could be pure incompetence of hmrc but I am of the view of he has legally worked out a way via paying top accountants to get around tax bills and the scary thing is if he saved 3m of a technicality how much more are we missing out on while our nhs hits the buffers. Instead they are happy to go for an unpaid council tax bill of £400 and lock someone up for 6 months. That's why people get so angry.

Kingokings204 · Nov 9, 2017

skybluegod said:
Both parties are a shambles at the moment.
The government seems set on shooting itself in the foot at the moment, one problem after another.
May needs to go, but it would be such poor timing as negotiations would probably have to start all over again?
Labour aren’t much better at the moment, as they are just as bad, the parties of this country are just so weak.

You could argue how brexit has shown these parties to be what they are incompetent. They have had a free ride for so long now that now they are accountable and have the biggest job to do for half a century it all comes crashing down within the two main parties.

The tories are a shambles and I can't see May lasting much longer which I hope for and well known major u turns. As for labour they have flip flopped so much I still don't know genuinely what their position on brexit is not to mention all the resignations corbyn had and another party leadership bid last September he won again. Manifesto promises and backtracks themselves. Both parties are currently split and both look weak and unstable imo.

Ian1779 · Nov 9, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
You could argue how brexit has shown these parties to be what they are incompetent. They have had a free ride for so long now that now they are accountable and have the biggest job to do for half a century it all comes crashing down within the two main parties.

The tories are a shambles and I can't see May lasting much longer which I hope for and well known major u turns. As for labour they have flip flopped so much I still don't know genuinely what their position on brexit is not to mention all the resignations corbyn had and another party leadership bid last September he won again. Manifesto promises and backtracks themselves. Both parties are currently split and both look weak and unstable imo.

The state of the Tories is not even remotely comparable to that of Labour. The resignations and leadership was put to bed once for all in June, and they are far more united than a Conservative party falling apart in front of everyone's eyes.

I do agree that Labour haven't really clarified their position, but until the Tories are put out of their misery, who knows what the state of Brexit will look like - would you show your hand at this stage knowing you will probably be the one having to pick up the pieces from this shit shamble?

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

Ian1779 said:
The state of the Tories is not even remotely comparable to that of Labour. The resignations and leadership was put to bed once for all in June, and they are far more united than a Conservative party falling apart in front of everyone's eyes.

I do agree that Labour haven't really clarified their position, but until the Tories are put out of their misery, who knows what the state of Brexit will look like - would you show your hand at this stage knowing you will probably be the one having to pick up the pieces from this shit shamble?

Agree that Labour aren’t as bad, but that isn’t a metric to measure against. Nor are the Lib Dem’s!

Sick Boy · Nov 9, 2017

A Labour government is inevitable, IMO. It's just a matter of when now.

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

Sick Boy said:
A Labour government is inevitable, IMO. It's just a matter of when now.

Hmm maybe, think they might win, but won’t have a majority, their reputation hasn’t recovered enough imo, and while the conservatives are on the fall, that could all change by the next government, if a change of leadership takes place.

Kingokings204 · Nov 9, 2017

Sick Boy said:
A Labour government is inevitable, IMO. It's just a matter of when now.

Very possible. If Teresa May stays then I am certain it will be Labour.

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

Kingokings204 said:
Very possible. If Teresa May stays then I am certain it will be Labour.

Yeah that’s it, i agree. or if she sticks it out, and magically pulls a cat out of her arse, and actually gets a good brexit deal, I can see the conservatives getting back in ofc

Sick Boy · Nov 9, 2017

skybluegod said:
Yeah that’s it, i agree. or if she sticks it out, and magically pulls a cat out of her arse, and actually gets a good brexit deal, I can see the conservatives getting back in ofc

The problem is there is no one else to replace her. If there was she'd be gone.

skybluegod · Nov 9, 2017

Sick Boy said:
The problem is there is no one else to replace her. If there was she'd be gone.

I don’t know, there are a couple that I like, the problem is, and this is across the parties, is that there needs to be the next generation of politicians come through.
I like a couple of the current ones conservatives, Dominic rabb is one. It’s the fact that she is in power, and as easy it is to say if they want her gone she will be gone, not before she takes a load of them down with her I would expect.
There is only one labour MP I have really thought wow, and that is Sadiq Khan, who massively impressed me through brexit and whenever he speaks, but as long as Corbyn and McDonnell are in charge I will never back labour.

Kingokings204 · Nov 9, 2017

Sick Boy said:
The problem is there is no one else to replace her. If there was she'd be gone.

Nail on the head. The tories are scared stiff if they get rid of her with no replacement there will be no point and thus letting corbyn in to power something that is keeping May in a job.

It's really catch 22 because if they do keep May on as a result then it will carry on with this shambles and corbyn will get in anyway.

Ian1779 · Nov 9, 2017

skybluegod said:
but as long as Corbyn and McDonnell are in charge I will never back labour.

It's kind of ironic that it's the presence of these 2 that have energised younger people into politics. There is no-one in the Tories that inspires young people.

Oh Jeremy Corbyn (2 Viewers)

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