Oh Jeremy Corbyn (2 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

Anyone read the book "Left Out" by Gabriel Pogrund?

It's widely praised, even by some of the Corbyn outriders (e.g. Novara Media's Aaron Bastani) as being accurate and balanced. I'll finish it tomorrow.

What a shambles they were, the country dodged a bullet there. It's so cringeworthy it's comic at times, with the LOTO office constantly trying to out-right-on each other; bullying; insisting on Union Reps in meetings etc. Starmer is one of the few (so far - I'm on the penultimate chapter) to come out of the whole thing with any positive reputation intact. He's got a job on his hands to turn the party around.

Dodged a bullet?
Come on. This administration has seen 100k deaths. Even if you think it would have been worse probably best just to let it lie for now out of respect for those that have lost their lives.
One thing I'll guarantee wouldn't have happened under Corbyn, the plundering of the public purse in order to award contracts to his cronies.

 

---

[mrtrench]

Dodged a bullet?
Come on. This administration has seen 100k deaths. Even if you think it would have been worse probably best just to let it lie for now out of respect for those that have lost their lives.
One thing I'll guarantee wouldn't have happened under Corbyn, the plundering of the public purse in order to award contracts to his cronies.

Have you read it? I mentally predicted whataboutery whilst I was typing and I wasn't disappointed. Read it. It'll cost you no more than £15 including delivery. Then ask yourself honestly if you still want that with real power over the country. No need to tell us if you do - it'll be our little secret.

You'll notice that few centrist/right wing comments appear off-topic in any of the politics threads. I've glanced occasionally and it's almost universally the Left agreeing with each other (or starting the ubiquitous splits and fractures of opinion for which the Left is famous). Obviously I cannot comment for others, but I find the onslaught of the bien pensant Left who pour into every thread on every social media platform like gin into Anna Soubry's glass... just depressing. Never concede a point; rally around 'le grand project' in numbers; obfuscate; diverge... anything but consider for a second that you may be wrong. And of course, those are exactly the qualities you need to remain a disciple of a religion that has been so thoroughly empirically proven to be anything but the Utopia that the faithful imagine.

This is why the Left are so convinced that they are within days of power every election: there are no dissenting voices - you all drove them away. And why you are always surprised when you don't win - you imagine that because nobody on Facebook disagrees with you, the entire country is going to vote for your latest saviour, who will lead the world into the land of milk and honey.

This is not personal, Clint. Indeed I believe from some of your other comments that you are one of the few that haven't been dragged fully into the cult. Crikey, you even wrote recently that you wouldn't hate someone else just because they vote Tory. That's almost being a reasonable and balanced human being. This is also not the start of me commenting on political threads again; I will revert to ignoring - even the stuff that seeps into the main forum. Just read the book.

 

[clint van damme]

Have you read it? I mentally predicted whataboutery whilst I was typing and I wasn't disappointed. Read it. It'll cost you no more than £15 including delivery. Then ask yourself honestly if you still want that with real power over the country. No need to tell us if you do - it'll be our little secret.

You'll notice that few centrist/right wing comments appear off-topic in any of the politics threads. I've glanced occasionally and it's almost universally the Left agreeing with each other (or starting the ubiquitous splits and fractures of opinion for which the Left is famous). Obviously I cannot comment for others, but I find the onslaught of the bien pensant Left who pour into every thread on every social media platform like gin into Anna Soubry's glass... just depressing. Never concede a point; rally around 'le grand project' in numbers; obfuscate; diverge... anything but consider for a second that you may be wrong. And of course, those are exactly the qualities you need to remain a disciple of a religion that has been so thoroughly empirically proven to be anything but the Utopia that the faithful imagine.

This is why the Left are so convinced that they are within days of power every election: there are no dissenting voices - you all drove them away. And why you are always surprised when you don't win - you imagine that because nobody on Facebook disagrees with you, the entire country is going to vote for your latest saviour, who will lead the world into the land of milk and honey.

This is not personal, Clint. Indeed I believe from some of your other comments that you are one of the few that haven't been dragged fully into the cult. Crikey, you even wrote recently that you wouldn't hate someone else just because they vote Tory. That's almost being a reasonable and balanced human being. This is also not the start of me commenting on political threads again; I will revert to ignoring - even the stuff that seeps into the main forum. Just read the book.

It's not whatabouttery. I'm sure the criticism is valid.
I have criticised Corbyns 2019 campaign myself. Some of it admittedly on points I bought into at the time but with the benefit of hindsight I realised were glaring mistakes.

But at some point people who voted Tory have to hold their hands up and say we voted for this,.They can't just keep pointing at Corbyn and saying it could have been worse.
It's at best denial and at worse cowardice.

You only have to look at the last few days, the centrists/leftists as you describe them pretty much in agreement on condemning the EU over their vaccine shithousing.

Find me a thread where the Tory voters have shown the same sort of condemnation against the government and there have been issues on a monthly, weekly, and for a period last year, daily basis where there behaviour has been reprehensible.

From the PPE scandals to the daily provable lies on breakfast TV and during covid briefings to Robert Jenrick facilitating diddling a deprived London Borough of tens of millions.

Knock yourself out slating Corbyn and the left but as far as I'm concerned Corbyns gone, but you still have to take responsibility for the current shower.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It's not whatabouttery. I'm sure the criticism is valid.
I have criticised Corbyns 2019 campaign myself. Some of it admittedly on points I bought into at the time but with the benefit of hindsight I realised were glaring mistakes.

But at some point people who voted Tory have to hold their hands up and say we voted for this,.They can't just keep pointing at Corbyn and saying it could have been worse.
It's at best denial and at worse cowardice.

You only have to look at the last few days, the centrists/leftists as you describe them pretty much in agreement on condemning the EU over their vaccine shithousing.

Find me a thread where the Tory voters have shown the same sort of condemnation against the government and there have been issues on a monthly, weekly, and for a period last year, daily basis where there behaviour has been reprehensible.

From the PPE scandals to the daily provable lies on breakfast TV and during covid briefings to Robert Jenrick facilitating diddling a deprived London Borough of tens of millions.

Knock yourself out slating Corbyn and the left but as far as I'm concerned Corbyns gone, but you still have to take responsibility for the current shower.

And to crown it all off, the impending end of the union

 

[clint van damme]

And to crown it all off, the impending end of the union

Not looking good is it?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Not looking good is it?

Had several prominent pro-UK Scots tell him to butt out as his approval ratings are so low. Said at the time voting him in would be the nail in the coffin as far as that is concerned, it will just be England and (possibly) Wales left by 2030. Good luck selling rump UK abroad

 

[Ian1779]

Anyone read the book "Left Out" by Gabriel Pogrund?

It's widely praised, even by some of the Corbyn outriders (e.g. Novara Media's Aaron Bastani) as being accurate and balanced. I'll finish it tomorrow.

What a shambles they were, the country dodged a bullet there. It's so cringeworthy it's comic at times, with the LOTO office constantly trying to out-right-on each other; bullying; insisting on Union Reps in meetings etc. Starmer is one of the few (so far - I'm on the penultimate chapter) to come out of the whole thing with any positive reputation intact. He's got a job on his hands to turn the party around.

Criticising the left ‘machine’ as naive and even incompetent is a valid statement, despite how personally uncomfortable I find it.

Suggesting that Starmer and the current right-leaning PLP is somehow capable is absurd. Starmer has shown so far he is incapable of taking the Labour Party forward if he continues on his current trajectory, and deciding to head closer to the Tories post Cov-ID is a mistake.

 

[mrtrench]

Suggesting that Starmer and the current right-leaning PLP is somehow capable is absurd. Starmer has shown so far he is incapable of taking the Labour Party forward if he continues on his current trajectory, and deciding to head closer to the Tories post Cov-ID is a mistake.

I know, he's almost as bad as Bernstein: he's an apostate. Heaven knows, he's such a sop he might actually be speaking for a majority of the population and get himself elected. How so very gauche,

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Right about broadband

 

[clint van damme]

I know, he's almost as bad as Bernstein: he's an apostate. Heaven knows, he's such a sop he might actually be speaking for a majority of the population and get himself elected. How so very gauche,

Depending on what poll You believe he's either slightly trailing or slightly leading Johnson.
Given Johnson's track record that's not really anything to crow about.

Two of Corbyns biggest supporters on here have held our hands up and said criticism of him is valid yet Tory supporters cant bring themselves to criticise Johnson.
Who is it that's the cult?

So tell me, are you happy with the cronyism of Johnson's tenure? Are you happy that your tax money has been used in such a manner?
Are you happy that he thinks he's done everything he could even though we have over 100k deaths?

 

[Ian1779]

I know, he's almost as bad as Bernstein: he's an apostate. Heaven knows, he's such a sop he might actually be speaking for a majority of the population and get himself elected. How so very gauche,

If he spoke about anything it would be a bloody start.

 

[Brylowes]

Dodged a bullet?
Come on. This administration has seen 100k deaths. Even if you think it would have been worse probably best just to let it lie for now out of respect for those that have lost their lives.
One thing I'll guarantee wouldn't have happened under Corbyn, the plundering of the public purse in order to award contracts to his cronies.

Dodged a bullet and slipped under the wheels of a big red bus in one fell swoop what a lucky lot we are.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Suggesting that Starmer and the current right-leaning PLP is somehow capable is absurd. Starmer has shown so far he is incapable of taking the Labour Party forward if he continues on his current trajectory, and deciding to head closer to the Tories post Cov-ID is a mistake.

I'd argue with you on this, but that would suggest a fracture of opinion and, being of the Left, I have to stick with a brand project apparently... while splitting from you at the same time.

Not that we're into generalisations and Othering of course...

 

[shmmeee]

Depending on what poll You believe he's either slightly trailing or slightly leading Johnson.
Given Johnson's track record that's not really anything to crow about.

Two of Corbyns biggest supporters on here have held our hands up and said criticism of him is valid yet Tory supporters cant bring themselves to criticise Johnson.
Who is it that's the cult?

So tell me, are you happy with the cronyism of Johnson's tenure? Are you happy that your tax money has been used in such a manner?
Are you happy that he thinks he's done everything he could even though we have over 100k deaths?

This is a bit of a misunderstanding of politics Ive got to say. Most people aren’t politics nerds and don’t blame politicians for events like the pandemic, mostly leaders get a boost in a crisis. That’s why Thatcher and Bush did a war when they needed a polling boost.

What Starmers done is turn around the fundamentals in the polling. He’s ahead of his party on credibility and likeability, both signs of a good leader (Corbyn never was, people voted Labour in spite of him). He’s matching it ahead of the the actual PM on “looks like a PM”.

If you’re expecting a government handing out free cash and saving your granny while “doing their best bless them” to be 20 points behind, you really don’t get how politics works. What the 15% of nerds think about PPE contracts or whatever is irrelevant.

 

[clint van damme]

This is a bit of a misunderstanding of politics Ive got to say. Most people aren’t politics nerds and don’t blame politicians for events like the pandemic, mostly leaders get a boost in a crisis. That’s why Thatcher and Bush did a war when they needed a polling boost.

What Starmers done is turn around the fundamentals in the polling. He’s ahead of his party on credibility and likeability, both signs of a good leader (Corbyn never was, people voted Labour in spite of him). He’s matching it ahead of the the actual PM on “looks like a PM”.

If you’re expecting a government handing out free cash and saving your granny while “doing their best bless them” to be 20 points behind, you really don’t get how politics works. What the 15% of nerds think about PPE contracts or whatever is irrelevant.

When Corbyn went 3 points ahead of May in the polls centrists said it was poor and he should be thrashing her.

Yet Starmer is polling similar against a, I think it's fair to say, worse PM and it's a resounding success apparently.

And if likeability gets you elected Starmers had it. He has no personality and is up against someone who for all his faults does (Though I'm not sure he'll be in situ come the next election).

 

[Grendel]

When Corbyn went 3 points ahead of May in the polls centrists said it was poor and he should be thrashing her.

Yet Starmer is polling similar against a, I think it's fair to say, worse PM and it's a resounding success apparently.

And if likeability gets you elected Starmers had it. He has no personality and is up against someone who for all his faults does (Though I'm not sure he'll be in situ come the next election).

The problem with the likes of Corbyn and Foot - even Kinnock - is that when it came to the polling days at election there becomes real concern to make the leap

Now you could rightly say corbyn did get votes at the election against May but having not secured anything like a majority that was his political peak

Starmer is not likely to have a “red under the bed” label to moderates

 

[mrtrench]

When Corbyn went 3 points ahead of May in the polls centrists said it was poor and he should be thrashing her.

Yet Starmer is polling similar against a, I think it's fair to say, worse PM and it's a resounding success apparently.

And if likeability gets you elected Starmers had it. He has no personality and is up against someone who for all his faults does (Though I'm not sure he'll be in situ come the next election).

Starmer hasn't mentioned Palestine much yet at all. Once he does, that's a real vote-winner and will bring the blue wall tumbling down.

 

[clint van damme]

Starmer hasn't mentioned Palestine much yet at all. Once he does, that's a real vote-winner and will bring the blue wall tumbling down.

Your being silly on purpose to distract from the fact you've avoided several questions I've asked you in previous posts about the Tories.

I've admitted Corbyn got it wrong so not sure why you're labouring the point (No pun intended).

Is Starmer a better leader of the Labour party? Even though I don't agree with a lot of what he's done he's been far more decisive than Corbyn so I'd say yes.

Is he a better leader of the opposition? That's debatable.
Is he a decent leader of the opposition - I really have my doubts about that. I hope he proves me wrong because we desperately need rid of this current mob.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The problem with the likes of Corbyn and Foot - even Kinnock - is that when it came to the polling days at election there becomes real concern to make the leap

Now you could rightly say corbyn did get votes at the election against May but having not secured anything like a majority that was his political peak

Starmer is not likely to have a “red under the bed” label to moderates

Supposing Boris is removed before the next election and replaced with someone who isn’t a total buffoon, for argument’s sake let’s say Jeremy Hunt. You’ve got two ‘moderate’ candidates between whom there isn’t much substantial difference. We have been there before and the Tories will still win.

I don’t see how Labour wins again to be honest. We’ve become like the US where it’s all about the personality and nothing substantive

 

[clint van damme]

The problem with the likes of Corbyn and Foot - even Kinnock - is that when it came to the polling days at election there becomes real concern to make the leap

Now you could rightly say corbyn did get votes at the election against May but having not secured anything like a majority that was his political peak

Starmer is not likely to have a “red under the bed” label to moderates

Corbyn could have probably pushed on from 2017 in 2019 but his campaign and manifesto was a text book lesson in how not to win an election.

Running a better campaign than Corbyn isn't going to be enough for Starmer, he needs to beat the election winning machine that is the tories.

 

[mrtrench]

Your being silly on purpose to distract from the fact you've avoided several questions I've asked you in previous posts about the Tories.

I don't want to talk about the Tories. This thread is about Jeremy Corbyn and I came here to chat about the revelations about LOTO in the book I mentioned.

I don't really want to talk about Starmer either but I guess that's a reasonable extrapolation for this thread. IMO his major advantage over Corbyn is that he isn't as thick as pig shit and locked in a time warp from his days in the Lower Sixth (did Jeremy make it to Upper Sixth?). Which makes him electable, IMO. If he actually gets elected or not I don't know - and that probably depends upon how Johnson fares once this virus calms down and we get back to BAU. But he's electable and that's a start.

 

[clint van damme]

I don't want to talk about the Tories. This thread is about Jeremy Corbyn and I came here to chat about the revelations about LOTO in the book I mentioned.

I don't really want to talk about Starmer either but I guess that's a reasonable extrapolation for this thread. IMO his major advantage over Corbyn is that he isn't as thick as pig shit and locked in a time warp from his days in the Lower Sixth (did Jeremy make it to Upper Sixth?). Which makes him electable, IMO. If he actually gets elected or not I don't know - and that probably depends upon how Johnson fares once this virus calms down and we get back to BAU. But he's electable and that's a start.

But Corbyns gone.
Yet so many people have a weird obsession with him.
When questioning that obsession you have to bring the Tories into it because you have to question why they're not equally obsessed with politicians from that party who have shown high levels of incompetencey?
It's very strange.

 

[mrtrench]

But Corbyns gone.
Yet so many people have a weird obsession with him.
When questioning that obsession you have to bring the Tories into it because you have to question why they're not equally obsessed with politicians from that party who have shown high levels of incompetencey?
It's very strange.

I don't care about the Tories, I'm just happy that the country has been saved from having a nutter in charge. I can live with slightly left and slightly right and as long as we keep capitalism and free markets we'll be ok. Social policy is also important to me, mind. And I can live with Johnson and Starmer on that too.

 

[clint van damme]

I don't care about the Tories, I'm just happy that the country has been saved from having a nutter in charge. I can live with slightly left and slightly right and as long as we keep capitalism and free markets we'll be ok. Social policy is also important to me, mind. And I can live with Johnson and Starmer on that too.

I think the pandemic has shown deep flaws in the current capitalist model.
Despite being thought of as a socialist on here I agree with capitalism but the current model is too rampant.

The wealth transfer to the world's richest in the last year should be a concern to any right thinking person. Especially Johnson if he's serious about 'levelling up' the country.

 

[mrtrench]

I think the pandemic has shown deep flaws in the current capitalist model.
Despite being thought of as a socialist on here I agree with capitalism but the current model is too rampant.

The wealth transfer to the world's richest in the last year should be a concern to any right thinking person. Especially Johnson if he's serious about 'levelling up' the country.

Do you know why Bernstein became an apostate? He was a dedicated Marxist and part of the Engels inner-circle... so how did he come to leave his comrades and become the founding father of social democracy? It was because many years had passed since Marx's predictions on capitalism and he noticed that the opposite to what Marx said was happening. Rather than becoming poorer, the least well-off were becoming more wealthy. He decided that instead of trying to overthrow capitalism he would work within it and incrementally improve the situation for the poor.

Lenin realised the same thing. He realised that the proletariat would never rise up in revolution too and that life was getting better. His approach was different though; he decided that he had to ferment a revolution on behalf of the workers and then run a dictatorship on their behalf.

I disagree that the pandemic shows deep flaws in capitalism. As a result of capitalism we now have several vaccines and more on the way, which all work in slightly different ways - and all in year. France's vaccine failed but that's ok because there are others.

We needed more PPE and private companies responded; some factories converting from other purposes to meet the demand.

Socialist countries in the past couldn't even feed their own people. We are at the point of getting back to normality because of capitalism.

And the only reason I care about inequality is because other people do and they get jealous, which can lead to socialism. As long as life is getting better for everyone (as it does every decade), I'm happy, Not that inequality is increasing anyway. I know that's what the comrades like to think but the data say otherwise. The UK for example, is now more equal than it was in 2008 under Gordon Brown.

Proof here:

Household income inequality, UK - Office for National Statistics

Provisional estimates of income inequality in the UK for the financial year ending 2020.

www.ons.gov.uk

.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Do you know why Bernstein became an apostate? He was a dedicated Marxist and part of the Engels inner-circle... so how did he come to leave his comrades and become the founding father of social democracy? It was because many years had passed since Marx's predictions on capitalism and he noticed that the opposite to what Marx said was happening. Rather than becoming poorer, the least well-off were becoming more wealthy. He decided that instead of trying to overthrow capitalism he would work within it and incrementally improve the situation for the poor.

Lenin realised the same thing. He realised that the proletariat would never rise up in revolution too and that life was getting better. His approach was different though; he decided that he had to ferment a revolution on behalf of the workers and then run a dictatorship on their behalf.

I disagree that the pandemic shows deep flaws in capitalism. As a result of capitalism we now have several vaccines and more on the way, which all work in slightly different ways - and all in year. France's vaccine failed but that's ok because there are others.

We needed more PPE and private companies responded; some factories converting from other purposes to meet the demand.

Socialist countries in the past couldn't even feed their own people. We are at the point of getting back to normality because of capitalism.

And the only reason I care about inequality is because other people do and they get jealous, which can lead to socialism. As long as life is getting better for everyone (as it does every decade), I'm happy, Not that inequality is increasing anyway. I know that's what the comrades like to think but the data say otherwise. The UK for example, is now more equal than it was in 2008 under Gordon Brown.

Proof here:

Household income inequality, UK - Office for National Statistics

Provisional estimates of income inequality in the UK for the financial year ending 2020.

www.ons.gov.uk

.

Capitalism has taken millions out of abject poverty worldwide it’s a fact but so is rampant non regulated capitalism will grow inequality and inequality leads to fractured society

 

[clint van damme]

Do you know why Bernstein became an apostate? He was a dedicated Marxist and part of the Engels inner-circle... so how did he come to leave his comrades and become the founding father of social democracy? It was because many years had passed since Marx's predictions on capitalism and he noticed that the opposite to what Marx said was happening. Rather than becoming poorer, the least well-off were becoming more wealthy. He decided that instead of trying to overthrow capitalism he would work within it and incrementally improve the situation for the poor.

Lenin realised the same thing. He realised that the proletariat would never rise up in revolution too and that life was getting better. His approach was different though; he decided that he had to ferment a revolution on behalf of the workers and then run a dictatorship on their behalf.

I disagree that the pandemic shows deep flaws in capitalism. As a result of capitalism we now have several vaccines and more on the way, which all work in slightly different ways - and all in year. France's vaccine failed but that's ok because there are others.

We needed more PPE and private companies responded; some factories converting from other purposes to meet the demand.

Socialist countries in the past couldn't even feed their own people. We are at the point of getting back to normality because of capitalism.

And the only reason I care about inequality is because other people do and they get jealous, which can lead to socialism. As long as life is getting better for everyone (as it does every decade), I'm happy, Not that inequality is increasing anyway. I know that's what the comrades like to think but the data says otherwise. The UK for example, is now more equal than it was in 2008 under Gordon Brown.

Proof here:

Household income inequality, UK - Office for National Statistics

Provisional estimates of income inequality in the UK for the financial year ending 2020.

www.ons.gov.uk

.

I have absolutely no.idea about Bernstein and Marx but your assertion that the poorest are getting wealthier isn't true currently.
It has been the case for many years bit it isn't now which is why I didn't say the pandemic shows deep flaws in capitalism, I said it shows flaws in the current capitalist model.

The increase in wealth of America's richest has almost directly correlated with the amount lost by the bottom earners.
That isn't down innovation or entrepreneurialism it's down to a system skewed in their favour. It's not about jealousy it's about a level playing field which I though is what proper capitalism was all about?

And linking a study doesnt really prove anything. You can find several studies which conclude there is a growing problem with poverty in the UK.
And I'm sure there are several more which back up the claims of the one you linked.

 

[clint van damme]

Capitalism has taken millions out of abject poverty worldwide it’s a fact but so is rampant non regulated capitalism will grow inequality and inequality leads to fractured society

Thanks Pete. Far less verbose than my try above and explained the point I was trying to get at far better!

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Thanks Pete. Far less verbose than my try above and explained the point I was trying to get at far better!

The dangers of deep inequality are so obvious it’s amazing political leaders don’t do something before it’s too late. When people have nothing to lose they have everything to gain. I hear you brother.

 

[Grendel]

But Corbyns gone.
Yet so many people have a weird obsession with him.
When questioning that obsession you have to bring the Tories into it because you have to question why they're not equally obsessed with politicians from that party who have shown high levels of incompetencey?
It's very strange.

Most of the people who have a weird obsession with him are Labour Party members and of course Red Len

 

[Ian1779]

The dangers of deep inequality are so obvious it’s amazing political leaders don’t do something before it’s too late. When people have nothing to lose they have everything to gain. I hear you brother.

See Brexit

 

[Grendel]

See Brexit

See the federal EU and it’s rich nation first policy

 

[Ian1779]

See the federal EU and it’s rich nation first policy

I don’t disagree. Eventually it will be the end of them too.

 

[Grendel]

I don’t disagree. Eventually it will be the end of them too.

It won’t as the single currency is a padlock from which as Greece found out there is no escape

In what way is it progressive when a German leader can decide what budget an elected Italian government can deliver

 

[clint van damme]

See Brexit

Was cited as one of the reasons for growing UK poverty in the IFS report.

However it's done now and Johnson has said he's going to level up the country.

Let's hope he does or that he's held to account if he doesn't.