Oh Jeremy Corbyn

Ian1779

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Isn't some of that down to the simplism of the media and how it represents things (see "free broadband")?
I tend to agree with you that renationalisation whilst something that should happen is really secondary to more important 21st century stuff. The first thing Labour needs to do is expose the state budget = household budget myth. Rishi Sunak has given them the opportunity to do it through the covid spending. Unfortunately the dullard Starmer has as shadow chancellor seems to want to try and play the Tories at their own game. It's just really depressing.
Broadband communism was the phrase I believe. Looking at what has happened since GE19 some of his ideas look visionary.

Starmer could really hammer the Tories post Brexit and Cov-ID if he had a plan that was invigorating and innovative - there is certainly appetite for it out there. But at the moment he just wants to stand near a flag...
 

shmmeee

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Isn't some of that down to the simplism of the media and how it represents things (see "free broadband")?
I tend to agree with you that renationalisation whilst something that should happen is really secondary to more important 21st century stuff. The first thing Labour needs to do is expose the state budget = household budget myth. Rishi Sunak has given them the opportunity to do it through the covid spending. Unfortunately the dullard Starmer has as shadow chancellor seems to want to try and play the Tories at their own game. It's just really depressing.
Nah, broadband is a really good example actually although that may just be because personally it’s something I’ve thought about a lot.

We should’ve nationalised OpenReach but not promised a national broadband competitor or talked about buying out ISPs or whatever. It was this belief in government running big consumer facing companies with strong competition.

I dunno, I never felt Corbyn “got it” and was more happy to smile along until it came round to a tune he knows well. Hard to explain.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

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Nah, broadband is a really good example actually although that may just be because personally it’s something I’ve thought about a lot.

We should’ve nationalised OpenReach but not promised a national broadband competitor or talked about buying out ISPs or whatever. It was this belief in government running big consumer facing companies with strong competition.

I dunno, I never felt Corbyn “got it” and was more happy to smile along until it came round to a tune he knows well. Hard to explain.
Have been speaking with Conservative friends around my age who have come almost full circle to ideas like UBI, higher public investment, the wastage of vanity project HS2, the need to address costs of living and so on. Even admitting that Brexit has proven chaotic for their respective industries. Say they voted Tory for lower taxes and better perks for small businesses, but they've also spotted the disconnect between the Tory voters wanting lower taxes for themselves, and Tory politicians giving tax cuts to people much richer than them, and businesses much larger than theirs.

If Labour offered them the economic populism they actually want and cut out the identity and woke bollocks, they'd be able to mine the votes.
 

clint van damme

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Nah, broadband is a really good example actually although that may just be because personally it’s something I’ve thought about a lot.

We should’ve nationalised OpenReach but not promised a national broadband competitor or talked about buying out ISPs or whatever. It was this belief in government running big consumer facing companies with strong competition.

I dunno, I never felt Corbyn “got it” and was more happy to smile along until it came round to a tune he knows well. Hard to explain.
the thing which always annoyed me was when both Corbyn and Johnson announced their broadband plans there was a telecommunications expert on 5Live and he said both plans were undeliverable, but johnsons never got the scrutiny or ridicule that Corbyns got and we're still talking about Corbyns plan now when Johnson who is the one in the hot seat and who's failed to deliver.
 
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Brighton Sky Blue

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Ian1779

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Going for identity politics over economic populism, smart move. There's a pandemic going on, people need cash in their pockets not flags waving in their face
Grown up politics apparently innit....
 

shmmeee

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Most British people are patriotic, Corbyn was widely seen an unpatriotic. I could’ve called this the day Corbyn stepped down 🤷

This is Pearl clutching of the most hilarious extreme:

The bigger possible consequences of the left playing national-identity politics have concerned some staffers who have seen the presentation. One said: “I was just sat there replaying in my mind the storming of the Capitol [in Washington last month] and thinking: are you really so blind to what happens when you start pandering to the language and concerns of the right?”
“Oh noes! If we don’t hate our country the Nazis have won!”

Yeah frankly I think the main issue wasn’t patriotism at Capitol Hill but people thinking everyone slightly out of line with their personal politics was an inhuman monster, but that’s just me.

Also, fuck all the way off with “it’s right wing to be patriotic”, no it fucking isn’t.

Where the fuck do these people think we’re going to find the voters we need? By going further down the left liberal rabbit hole? Maybe there’s a Lib Dem who was in a coma last time we can get!

Just fucking insanity.
 

Ian1779

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There are other ways to demonstrate patriotism - for example vowing to get every homeless veteran off the streets. It doesn’t cost him any political capital and it would strike a chord with many people that he wants to get a vote from, including those on the left which he still needs.
I don’t care about him standing near a flag, but maybe do or say something meaningful?
 
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clint van damme

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Most British people are patriotic, Corbyn was widely seen an unpatriotic. I could’ve called this the day Corbyn stepped down 🤷

This is Pearl clutching of the most hilarious extreme:



“Oh noes! If we don’t hate our country the Nazis have won!”

Yeah frankly I think the main issue wasn’t patriotism at Capitol Hill but people thinking everyone slightly out of line with their personal politics was an inhuman monster, but that’s just me.

Also, fuck all the way off with “it’s right wing to be patriotic”, no it fucking isn’t.

Where the fuck do these people think we’re going to find the voters we need? By going further down the left liberal rabbit hole? Maybe there’s a Lib Dem who was in a coma last time we can get!

Just fucking insanity.
It says people see Labour as the party of spend spend spend and against brexit.
If he can't change that perception given the Tories record on the economy then he needs to give up.

If he wants to plough on with this then fine but it needs to be in tandem with something more tangible at some point.
 

shmmeee

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It says people see Labour as the party of spend spend spend and against brexit.
If he can't change that perception given the Tories record on the economy then he needs to give up.

If he wants to plough on with this then fine but it needs to be in tandem with something more tangible at some point.
It really doesn’t. How tangible have any of the election victories for either side been?

People vote with their gut not their head unfortunately. They “feel” Labour are unpatriotic. They “feel” Labour overspend. Whether it’s true or not doesn’t matter sadly, we still have to tackle those feelings.

Moreover this isn’t about Starmer, this is about a frankly ludicrous attitude to the flag from the British left. No other country treats their own flag like this. The closest is the confederate flag in the US and that’s very very different.
 

clint van damme

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It really doesn’t. How tangible have any of the election victories for either side been?

People vote with their gut not their head unfortunately. They “feel” Labour are unpatriotic. They “feel” Labour overspend. Whether it’s true or not doesn’t matter sadly, we still have to tackle those feelings.

Moreover this isn’t about Starmer, this is about a frankly ludicrous attitude to the flag from the British left. No other country treats their own flag like this. The closest is the confederate flag in the US and that’s very very different.
Johnson had a very simple message- get Brexit done.
Like I said, I've no problem with this but it won't be enough.
This won't change the perceptions about the economy.
 
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fernandopartridge

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It really doesn’t. How tangible have any of the election victories for either side been?

People vote with their gut not their head unfortunately. They “feel” Labour are unpatriotic. They “feel” Labour overspend. Whether it’s true or not doesn’t matter sadly, we still have to tackle those feelings.

Moreover this isn’t about Starmer, this is about a frankly ludicrous attitude to the flag from the British left. No other country treats their own flag like this. The closest is the confederate flag in the US and that’s very very different.
Yes, and when it comes to that gut feeling the Tories with their media partners will just turn up the dial a few thousand notches more. 2024 election campaign, Tory leader doing hustings from inside a military tank.
 

shmmeee

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Johnson had a very simple message- get Brexit done.
Like I said, I've no problem with this but it won't be enough.
This won't change the perceptions about the economy.
The economy perceptions are complex though. It’s really competence by another name IMO. How grey and boring and miserly are you, no one is looking at costed economic planning or scrutinising past economic data (if they did they wouldn’t think this in the first place!).

I’m not pretending I’m a PR master, could never work that shit out, But generally speaking giving as little as possible away and focusing on how you make people feel is a good strategy. And that’s frustrating to us wonks and nerds because it can’t be quantified easily. But it is little things like flag backgrounds and language. And it does happen over a long period of time.

Look at Johnson’s cultivation of his image over decades as a blokey, funny, but un-PC, lovable buffoon. If you wrote it out as “hang from a wire waving tiny flags” or “get caught shagging a lot” in a strategy document you’d think it was ridiculous. Bloody effective though.
 

NorthernWisdom

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Yes, and when it comes to that gut feeling the Tories with their media partners will just turn up the dial a few thousand notches more. 2024 election campaign, Tory leader doing hustings from inside a military tank.
We did see with Blair though, push the Tories right enough, and it's *them* who look like the out-of-touch nutters.

tbh, Johnson probably won't - he's teflon, and quite left relative to who he's surrounded himself with in terms of how he sees the state, but if / when they remove him, it wouldn't be too much of a false move from where they are to end up with a reactionary loon in charge.

(I won't even think about what happens if said reactionary loon wins, mind!)
 

shmmeee

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Yes, and when it comes to that gut feeling the Tories with their media partners will just turn up the dial a few thousand notches more. 2024 election campaign, Tory leader doing hustings from inside a military tank.
Yeah they will, but equally circulation is way down and most people get their news from social media not the Mail these days. It’s time to stop blaming the media for reflecting what the public generally think and start engaging with the actual public. False consciousness theory is a dead end electorally.
 

fernandopartridge

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Yeah they will, but equally circulation is way down and most people get their news from social media not the Mail these days. It’s time to stop blaming the media for reflecting what the public generally think and start engaging with the actual public. False consciousness theory is a dead end electorally.
They'll use social media like they did in the last GE. I wasn't blaming the media, I was just pointing out that they have towed the Tory line for years, to deny it has any impact is delusion.

As an aside, The Daily Mail is one of the most daily visited websites, circulation is not really that relevant.
 
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clint van damme

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We did see with Blair though, push the Tories right enough, and it's *them* who look like the out-of-touch nutters.

tbh, Johnson probably won't - he's teflon, and quite left relative to who he's surrounded himself with in terms of how he sees the state, but if / when they remove him, it wouldn't be too much of a false move from where they are to end up with a reactionary loon in charge.

(I won't even think about what happens if said reactionary loon wins, mind!)
Gove
 

shmmeee

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They'll use social media like they did in the last GE. I wasn't blaming the media, I was just pointing out that they have towed the Tory line for years, to deny it has any impact is delusion.

As an aside, The Daily Mail is one of the most daily visited websites, circulation is not really that relevant.
Have they? Or have the Tories and media towed the publics line on issues that aren’t core to enable them to get elected/read and enact policy/push narratives they want?

There’s a reason the Sun puts so much into celeb gossip and sports news and it ain’t Ruperts love of TOWIE.

Elite politicians/media moguls aren’t massively patriotic and hate the pedos or whatever, they just want the votes of people who are.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

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It really doesn’t. How tangible have any of the election victories for either side been?

People vote with their gut not their head unfortunately. They “feel” Labour are unpatriotic. They “feel” Labour overspend. Whether it’s true or not doesn’t matter sadly, we still have to tackle those feelings.

Moreover this isn’t about Starmer, this is about a frankly ludicrous attitude to the flag from the British left. No other country treats their own flag like this. The closest is the confederate flag in the US and that’s very very different.
Doesn’t help that in at least 2 of the 4 nations waving a Union Jack will get you abuse at the least
 

shmmeee

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It’s funny, you must admit.
It’s not though. Because he’s nothing like Johnson. Corbyn was closer. Its Just lazy recycling of the Blair memes cos “anyone who isn’t Corbyn is Blair lolz”

If it was Cameron, maybe cos “lol suits innit?” But Johnson? Mr intentionally messy hair versus Mr haircut? Mr Populist vs Mr Wonk? It’s just a lazy comparison because the children behind it don’t get politics and can’t accept they suck at it.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

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It’s not though. Because he’s nothing like Johnson. Corbyn was closer. Its Just lazy recycling of the Blair memes cos “anyone who isn’t Corbyn is Blair lolz”

If it was Cameron, maybe cos “lol suits innit?” But Johnson? Mr intentionally messy hair versus Mr haircut? Mr Populist vs Mr Wonk? It’s just a lazy comparison because the children behind it don’t get politics and can’t accept they suck at it.
It makes me chuckle along with the other ones they do. As it is, he’s been attacking Johnson from the right on schools and making me agree with Boris on the vaccination schedule.
 

clint van damme

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It’s not though. Because he’s nothing like Johnson. Corbyn was closer. Its Just lazy recycling of the Blair memes cos “anyone who isn’t Corbyn is Blair lolz”

If it was Cameron, maybe cos “lol suits innit?” But Johnson? Mr intentionally messy hair versus Mr haircut? Mr Populist vs Mr Wonk? It’s just a lazy comparison because the children behind it don’t get politics and can’t accept they suck at it.
he did get caught lying at PMQs this week so definitely got something in common with Johnson.
 

Sky Blue Pete

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I feel like this thread has taken a direction where I can be patronising here :)

Words, and their definitions, are not set. There's often a collective acceptance of what words mean, but their meaning, naturally, changes over time. That can apply to the mundane, everyday language (the Gay Look was used as advertising for Rootes Group products, for example, in the 1950s and nowadays, that would be interpreted somewhat differently) but this certainly applies to political theory, where people spend decades of their lives debating meanings, directions of travel, and interpretations.

Now, some ideas of Marxism are pretty third rate and fixed. We've already gone through how Marx himself saw capitalism as progress, how the likes of Stalin appropriated the iconography, but departed somewhat from the principle. Of course, you then have the likes of Gramsci, and the concept of hegemony, building on Marx's work. Recently (and again, we've gone through this) we've had Stuart Hall (not the molesting one!) who defines at the edges. Socialism is used by the American far right for ideas which, to a European idea of political theory, would be seen as centrist at best. In this country, we see how the definitions slip from the 1970s (many of Heath's acts would be pretty 'socialist' in present times!) to today.

So when there's talk, paradoxically, of 'the Left' (interesting Othering there, an attempt to demean and diminish by grouping together and totalising a disparate series of elements in comparison to a view seen as superior) constantly splitting apart, yet constantly grouping together behind one big project, it seemsthere's an unwillingness to accept the broad gamut of political views within a body. It's interesting really because, I know certain people would be horrified to be seen as being part of the far right, of being part of a racist, bigoted, intolerant, abusive set of people... but they feel able to do similar to 'the Left'. I could go on about rhetorical strategies, and battling for cultural position and therefore being able to lead the direction of the political discourse but... I won't ;) Others in turn would be able to argue better than I - there's always somebody wiser than yourself out there (and don't I know it ;))

While I'm here, I'll slip in some light reading if anybody wants to be enraged / delighted / befuddled:)

Love it great writing

Had a really interesting discussion on our Union branch meeting when as a department we were looking at racism in the light of George Ford and systemic racism in the civil service. Some heartbreaking stories from some of our black representatives of oppressive and systemic racist practices and actions and decisions. Our chair (who is wonderful) was talking about someone acting very very defensively as a manger who had been accused of racism in a personal case he was dealing with. He said their action was understandable as no one likes to be called a racist.
A number of us jumped in to say there’s nothing inherently wrong with being racist and acting in a racist way and if it’s pointed out then often people are unaware of how their actions are being received or perceived and they can then change their behaviour or actions.
Some is just unthinking racist nonsense but often lazy or habitual or part of the norm and it shoudnt be

I relayed my story of working on nhs volunteer responders work in my spare time and how I reacted when having to go to a bad area of the city and worse when the name was a foreign name. I apologised for that being part of my sub conscious and conscious and as I could do nothing about the thoughts I committed to my black colleagues who’d shared their story that I would fight my own instinct to ensure I did all I could to treat people equally
It’s how we learn and grow isn’t it?
Does that make sense?

Inherently wrong is not the correct phrase. I mean we all make mistakes and act in ways that are not ok
 

shmmeee

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he did get caught lying at PMQs this week so definitely got something in common with Johnson.
Just so sick of the gleeful way the left in this country celebrate being shit at politics. So fucking depressing because there’s actual people that would really benefit from a Labour government and instead it’s a bunch of Tarquins LARPing as fucking Che Guervera.

“Ohh anything that would be out of place in a meeting of the Oxford Vegan Marxist Society is right wing” to the point where we’ve ended up classing 85% of the public in a solidly left wing country as right wing and they are believing it.

I hold as much contempt for this shit as I do for the right because they’re the rights useful idiots. Only happy in opposition.
 
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clint van damme

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Yep but acknowledged it and apologised - never be pm
I didn't see that. Wonder if he should ave just brazened it out like Johnson would of?
When I heard he confronted Johnson afterwards and had words with him I was actually quite impressed. I'd like to see a bit more fire in his belly.
 
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Brighton Sky Blue

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Yep but acknowledged it and apologised - never be pm
He did Pete, but still leading the calls for vaccinating teachers for school reopening despite that being repeatedly debunked as a way of making them ‘safe’ for the community. Making me and even bigger lefty Mrs BSB agree with Boris who I think deep down realises not even he can justify it.
 
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clint van damme

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Just so sick of the gleeful way the left in this country celebrate being shit at politics. So fucking depressing because there’s actual people that would really benefit from a Labour government and instead it’s a bunch of Tarquins LARPing as fucking Che Guervera.

“Ohh anything that would be out of place in a meeting of the Oxford Vegan Marxist Society is right wing” to the point where we’ve ended up classing 85% of the public in a solidly left wing country as right wing and they are believing it.

I hold as much contempt for this shit as I do for the right because they’re the rights useful idiots. Only happy in opposition.
You're sick of the left celebrating being shit at politics but want some of us to get behind a politician we think is shit?
You keep alluding to people slagging him because he's not Corbyn but wouldn't it be equally as short sighted to support him for that reason alone as well?

you've got an obsession with this and I think you're actually losing sight of what's going on.
You might want to look at where a large chunk of the vitriol aimed at Starmer is coming from these days.