Nuneaton MP to raise CCFC home next season in Parliament (1 Viewer)

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
What's the already agreed deal?

A bit early to say
You know they only do flexible regulations and rules.
.... and Sisu would batter them in court because of that.

The FL were unable to sort this out when the deals offered by ACL were cheaper than Sixfields.
The club providing Northampton with a new pitch was a piss take on any financial argument.
We all know the real reason we were moved by Sisu and why they had to come back with Wasps scuppering their selfish plan.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Like I said, what do you want them to actually do and how?

It seems to be a lot of hopes being pinned on Wasps not doing a long term deal but saying to the FL they will if Hoffman own CCFC and the FL saying "OK in that case we will give the club to hoffman and fans".

Can't remember where Wasps spoke to FL about a deal with Hoffman.
No we need to wait for Sisu to go for any deal worth having. They can't be trusted by anyone.

My worse fear is that the debt against CCFC is a positive on their balance sheet and when they leave it becomes a loss.
In that respected and with the club 'breaking even' there is good reason not to change anything.
No expert on this just opinion.
 

Nick

Administrator
Can't remember where Wasps spoke to FL about a deal with Hoffman.
No we need to wait for Sisu to go for any deal worth having. They can't be trusted by anyone.

My worse fear is that the debt against CCFC is a positive on their balance sheet and when they leave it becomes a loss.
In that respected and with the club 'breaking even' there is good reason not to change anything.
No expert on this just opinion.

So, what do you actually want the FL to do and how?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
What's the already agreed deal?
CCFC bend over for Wasps
Follow their own rules on ownership and stadium sites?
Think that through for a second. Wasps refuse to grant CCFC a further season at the Ricoh, the Butts has been ruled out and there's no stadium in the city available to CCFC that is of the required standard.

If the FL follow their rules they would refuse any application from CCFC to move away temporarily again. Therefore CCFC wouldn't be able to state they can fulfill their fixtures. The golden share gets withdrawn by the FL, again in line with the rules you want them to enfore, and we're thrown out the league.

The inevitable consequence of that is the club folds and SISU take everyone involved to court for the foreseeable future.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
I wish people would grasp the reality that our owner does not give a flying fuck about the club, the supporters, the city etc. All she is after is some financial return on a bad investment - if the best way to achieve that is the closure of the club it wouldn't bother her one iota. If she could prove that the business was affected detrimentaly and this ultimately led to its demise by the actions of Wasps, the council, the EFL, etc then this would simply strengthen her hand in seeking compensation and dragging all parties through yet more years of court actions. Wasps certainly don't want or need it and with the current ongoing court action had to give the club the bare minimum so as to be seen as being cooperative. The EFL is basically financially poor and could not afford to spend huge sums of money on legals brought by SISU so will simply do what it does best and do nothing. Until SISU have exhausted every avenue open to them in trying to get money out of the other parties they will go no where, sell to no one. The club is simply a chew toy for the various parties to squabble about and the fans simply collateral damage - this action in Parliament is just more window dressing and does nothing to change the situation. The only one who can do that is our owner and to date she does not appear to be of a mind to do that and won't be until she is convinced there is no prospect of getting any more money back.
That’s about the size of it. While they think there’s a chance of success in court or another avenue for court action that they think there’s a chance of success with they ain’t going anywhere. Unless someone is willing to pay way over the top for the club, which they ain’t.

In a funny sort of way I think that the ambiguity of the FL might actually be the best thing for club. It humours SISU while allowing the club to continue. For now that might be the only option.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
CCFC bend over for Wasps

Think that through for a second. Wasps refuse to grant CCFC a further season at the Ricoh, the Butts has been ruled out and there's no stadium in the city available to CCFC that is of the required standard.

If the FL follow their rules they would refuse any application from CCFC to move away temporarily again. Therefore CCFC wouldn't be able to state they can fulfill their fixtures. The golden share gets withdrawn by the FL, again in line with the rules you want them to enfore, and we're thrown out the league.

The inevitable consequence of that is the club folds and SISU take everyone involved to court for the foreseeable future.

Its all in Sisu's hands.
Wasps have put down a red line and FL need to do the same.
The Wasps red line is on a 'long term' deal so short term deals will just continue.
As long as Wasps offer a fair rent during this period (as it appears they have for next season) there will be no excuse for not staying.

We need to wait for the legals to exhaust and then see which way Sisu put the club out its misery.
 

Nick

Administrator
Its all in Sisu's hands.
Wasps have put down a red line and FL need to do the same.
The Wasps red line is on a 'long term' deal so short term deals will just continue.
As long as Wasps offer a fair rent during this period (as it appears they have for next season) there will be no excuse for not staying.

As I keep asking, what realistically do you want the FL to do?
 

ashbyjan

Well-Known Member
Who isn't grasping that?

It's all well and good shouting for the EFL to fix it, but realistically what do you want them to do?

Please point out where I have ask EFL to fix anything let alone shouted it. On the off chance you get off your high horse and actually read the post you may grasp the fact that what I am saying is that no one (INCLUDING THE EFL - hopefully that's clear enough for you) can or will do anything because all the cards to solve anything are with SISU and as they are not going to sell until they have exhausted every avenue to get financial return nothing will happen until (if) that day comes and therefore for the foreseeable future the club will just continue existing but nothing more. Clear enough for you?
 

covmark

Well-Known Member
Its all in Sisu's hands.
Wasps have put down a red line and FL need to do the same.
The Wasps red line is on a 'long term' deal so short term deals will just continue.
As long as Wasps offer a fair rent during this period (as it appears they have for next season) there will be no excuse for not staying.

We need to wait for the legals to exhaust and then see which way Sisu put the club out its misery.
It's been explained to you numerous times on this thread that the FL can do nothing to force a deal. So how can they put down a red line? You just keep repeating the same old crap over and over.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

Nick

Administrator
Please point out where I have ask EFL to fix anything let alone shouted it. On the off chance you get off your high horse and actually read the post you may grasp the fact that what I am saying is that no one (INCLUDING THE EFL - hopefully that's clear enough for you) can or will do anything because all the cards to solve anything are with SISU and as they are not going to sell until they have exhausted every avenue to get financial return nothing will happen until (if) that day comes and therefore for the foreseeable future the club will just continue existing but nothing more. Clear enough for you?

Apologies, I think I put the second line in the reply for Italia in there...

The first line was in reply, as I don't think anybody doesn't grasp they don't give a shite about CCFC.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
Please point out where I have ask EFL to fix anything let alone shouted it. On the off chance you get off your high horse and actually read the post you may grasp the fact that what I am saying is that no one (INCLUDING THE EFL - hopefully that's clear enough for you) can or will do anything because all the cards to solve anything are with SISU and as they are not going to sell until they have exhausted every avenue to get financial return nothing will happen until (if) that day comes and therefore for the foreseeable future the club will just continue existing but nothing more. Clear enough for you?

Ageed.
 

Nick

Administrator
Let Sisu know the club can't move out the area while a stadium is available at a reasonable cost.
All Wasps need do is offer the existing deal during this period.

Then again "reasonable cost" is subjective isn't it?

They can't start trying to force deals between 2 private companies which is where the issue comes into it. Ideally there would have been a rule from day 0 making sure the CLUB owned the stadium and that they could never be separate but it's impossible to enforce now.

Wasps did offer the short term 1 year deal and we didn't move so what are they talking about in parliament?

What's that got to do with the FL following their own rules like you suggested further back? It's not that relevant is it?
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Then again "reasonable cost" is subjective isn't it?

They can't start trying to force deals between 2 private companies which is where the issue comes into it. Ideally there would have been a rule from day 0 making sure the CLUB owned the stadium and that they could never be separate but it's impossible to enforce now.

Wasps did offer the short term 1 year deal and we didn't move so what are they talking about in parliament?

What's that got to do with the FL following their own rules like you suggested further back? It's not that relevant is it?

If the deal was excepted one year and then the same deal is rejected so they can move, it should be questioned.
If the deal at Sixfields was compared to the Ricoh offers at the time, surely the FL could quantify it and make a ruling particularly as we find out after the event it was less cost effective.
TF just saying it costs more should not be acceptable. Obviously it did cost more but we were comparing 2,000 fans to 10,000 and ignoring the incomes.
The FL should set some boundaries on this now and hold the club to them in the future. (One way or the other)
It's not rocket science.
 
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Nick

Administrator
If the deal was excepted one year and then the same deal is rejected so they can move, it should be questioned.
If the deal at Sixfields was compared to the Ricoh offers at the time, surely the FL could quantify it and make a ruling particularly as we find out after the event it was more expensive.
TF just saying it costs more should not be acceptable. Obviously it did cost more but we were comparing 2,000 fans to 10,000 and ignoring the incomes.
The FL should set some boundaries on this now and hold the club to them in the future. (One way or the other)
It's not rocket science.

Yes but who is on about short term deals? In Parliament they are discussing long term deals and stability.

A short term deal was agreed wasn't it and probably will just roll on like that,
 

ashbyjan

Well-Known Member
If we had owners who were reasonable, actually wanted a football club and weren't litigious animals then the EFL could use there own rules about tenure etc and get the club to sort out the mess. Basically they could demand the club shows them a realistic plan for either building a new stadium and renting Ricoh in short term or renting in long term or risk losing EFL membership. The club would be beholden to Wasps but that's the reality of the situation. If the club couldn't or wouldn't commit to such a plan then the FL removes the golden share. Yes that may well kill the club and its not something that anyone (bar a few nutters on CT website) want but the real threat of it should at least stir some action with any normal owners. As it stands the FL knows that SISU would happily allow them to take the share away and kill the club as it would add to their portfolio of potential litigants and therefore cannot push the matter - EFL is powerless. As things stand EFL can do nothing but with new owners (pray God one day) then things could be different.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
Yes but who is on about short term deals? In Parliament they are discussing long term deals and stability.

A short term deal was agreed wasn't it and probably will just roll on like that,

I'm replying to people saying Sisu can justify a move away.

I've already said that Parliament can't do anything as no one will deal with Sisu in giving CCFC a 'good' long term deal.
They will never be trusted again so until they go the club can't move on.
The only question is how low will we be and how will they show their 'wrath' when the game is finally over for them?

When they go the FL need to review what happened here and somehow make sure it never happens again.
 

Nick

Administrator
If we had owners who were reasonable, actually wanted a football club and weren't litigious animals then the EFL could use there own rules about tenure etc and get the club to sort out the mess. Basically they could demand the club shows them a realistic plan for either building a new stadium and renting Ricoh in short term or renting in long term or risk losing EFL membership. The club would be beholden to Wasps but that's the reality of the situation. If the club couldn't or wouldn't commit to such a plan then the FL removes the golden share. Yes that may well kill the club and its not something that anyone (bar a few nutters on CT website) want but the real threat of it should at least stir some action with any normal owners. As it stands the FL knows that SISU would happily allow them to take the share away and kill the club as it would add to their portfolio of potential litigants and therefore cannot push the matter - EFL is powerless. As things stand EFL can do nothing but with new owners (pray God one day) then things could be different.

It's not just us though, it opens up a different dimension going forward with other clubs doesn't it? Like you say the club would be beholden to Wasps, like it was beholden to ACL and the Council previously so it makes it a lot harder for the EFL to try and enforce anything as there are 3rd parties who have control over it. As soon as 3rd parties involved with football clubs (stadium owners, landlords etc) know that they have so much power that without them the club effectively dies it will get silly.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Who isn't grasping that?

It's all well and good shouting for the EFL to fix it, but realistically what do you want them to do?

I don't think that the people clamouring for SISU to put money in to the club in January understand it fully Nick. It is a frustration that will repeat itself every transfer window whilst SISU are the owners

The greatest passion for the club exists in the core of fans that go to the matches. Certainly not with the owners

The EFL are hamstrung in this as they are with the woes of any club. They have competition rules that they can enforce but when it comes to anything fundamental they are pretty impotent. Which is something else some fans do not understand, particularly those saying the EFL would or could take the golden share away. They simply could not afford the legal cases that would be sure to follow
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
It's not just us though, it opens up a different dimension going forward with other clubs doesn't it? Like you say the club would be beholden to Wasps, like it was beholden to ACL and the Council previously so it makes it a lot harder for the EFL to try and enforce anything as there are 3rd parties who have control over it. As soon as 3rd parties involved with football clubs (stadium owners, landlords etc) know that they have so much power that without them the club effectively dies it will get silly.

It happens all the time in business though.
Apple can have deals with competitors who also are suppliers. In theory Samsung could complicate things for Apple but a 'win win' situation is created for both.
I would say a successful CCFC would be financially advantageous to Wasps. But CCFC can't be successful without access to incomes so Wasps need to balance this out to get the best for both teams.
CCFC in the PL would bring financial stability to both, the art is getting them there.
CCFC are coming from such a low base though that they currently have very little to offer.
Moving forward is in small steps. The first step is the exit door for our current owners.
 

Nick

Administrator
I don't think that the people clamouring for SISU to put money in to the club in January understand it fully Nick. The greatest passion for the club exists in the core of fans that go to the matches.

The EFL are hamstrung in this as they are with the woes of any club. They have competition rules that they can enforce but when it comes to anything fundamental they are pretty impotent. Which is something else some fans do not understand, particularly those saying the EFL would or could take the golden share away. They simply could not afford the legal cases that would be sure to follow

Agree with that, don't get me wrong I'd love for them to say "actually, we have decided that all clubs should be fan owned and they should own their stadiums so hand them over" but I just can't see the reality of it.

It isn't just the legal cases from SISU, they would have to then carry out the rules on other clubs. When they start doing that they really would just be getting court action left, right and centre.

It's the same as they can't demand legal action be dropped else the golden share goes, unless it starts going into proven illegal activity they can't do much at all.
 

Nick

Administrator
It happens all the time in business though.
Apple can have deals with competitors who also are suppliers. In theory Samsung could complicate things for Apple but a 'win win' situation is created for both.
I would say a successful CCFC would be financially advantageous to Wasps. But CCFC can't be successful without access to incomes so Wasps need to balance this out to get the best for both teams.
CCFC in the PL would bring financial stability to both, the art is getting them there.
CCFC are coming from such a low base though that they currently have very little to offer.
Moving forward is in small steps. The first step is the exit door for our current owners.

So you keep preaching.

I think that's the sorry state of it all even without our owners, "what do CCFC have to offer Wasps to make it worthwhile to allow CCFC something that will help them prosper".
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
So you keep preaching.

I think that's the sorry state of it all even without our owners, "what do CCFC have to offer Wasps to make it worthwhile to allow CCFC something that will help them prosper".

Sorry for keep telling you that Sisu need to leave before our situation improves.
CCFC do have something to offer but under Sisu it is a risk, that from experience, is not worth taking.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
I don't think that the people clamouring for SISU to put money in to the club in January understand it fully Nick. It is a frustration that will repeat itself every transfer window whilst SISU are the owners

The greatest passion for the club exists in the core of fans that go to the matches. Certainly not with the owners

The EFL are hamstrung in this as they are with the woes of any club. They have competition rules that they can enforce but when it comes to anything fundamental they are pretty impotent. Which is something else some fans do not understand, particularly those saying the EFL would or could take the golden share away. They simply could not afford the legal cases that would be sure to follow

Yeah, they're powerless and can only interfere in strictly football matters. If they start messing with a clubs strategic direction or company affairs in anyway they'd be laid low by lawsuits in 2 shakes of a lambs tail.
 

Nick

Administrator
Sorry for keep telling you that Sisu need to leave before our situation improves.
CCFC do have something to offer but under Sisu it is a risk, that from experience, is not worth taking.

I am talking aside from SISU. For years CCFC has always been at somebody else's disposal (ACL, Council etc).

When SISU do go, I just hope somebody comes in who doesn't want to have to beg to Wasps for help and will find a way around it so there is never anybody above who could act up and interfere and what happens to CCFC is fully in CCFC's hands.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
The EFL has money in the bank (£43m) in its June 2017 accounts but it was all owed to the clubs in distributions. The actual consolidated balance sheet of the EFL group had a net asset value of £243K. The EFL is basically a competition committee that distributes prize money it receives via sponsorship and media sales

As such it has to be and is risk averse, which limits the actions it is prepared to take. They simply do not have the assets available to fight legal actions

We are shown on the list of members as entry number 64 Otium Entertainment Group Limited.

There is no one listed as a person with significant control. Which is understandable because it is controlled by its 72 member clubs who each have one vote

btw Nick they just spent 4m on the new website ............... cant say I use it.......... I should give them a quote see if you can help them out :)
 
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Nick

Administrator
The EFL has money in the bank (£43m) in its June 2017 accounts but it was all owed to the clubs in distributions. The actual consolidated balance sheet of the EFL group had a net asset value of £243K. The EFL is basically a competition committee that distributes prize money it receives via sponsorship and media sales

As such it has to be and is risk averse, which limits the actions it is prepared to take

We are shown on the list of members as entry number 64 Otium Entertainment Group Limited

btw Nick they just spent 4m on the new website ............... cant say I use it.......... I should give them a quote see if you can help them out

That might be beyond me as it looks like it's the whole thing with all of the club websites. I wonder if that includes iFollow too? It would explain the cost for all of the infrastructure / cameras / network links needed for that. I hope it does, because if it is £4m just for their individual website somebody is laughing all the way to the bank!
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
Ongoing...
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
In light of the EFL being impotent I wonder if there’s a possibility in the future of the government giving them some backing/protection to make them less impotent. Something like learning about CCFC’s predicament may help educate the government in understanding just how poisoned the game is by bad owners, powerful agents etc and motivate the government to offer the EFL protection in law so something as simple as the fit and proper persons tests become fit for purpose. For instance if there was law that insisted that every investor in CCFC or any other football club for that matter was public knowledge as part of the fit and proper test they’d have to give this information to pass the fit and proper test and the EFL has a safeguard of law to enforce it without the risk of litigation. Might put hedge funds and investment vehicles of football and address issues that have effected our club and others. Let’s face it, we can speculate that it’s American universities or that SISU have purchased the investment back but we have no clue if any of that’s true and neither probably does the EFL. This is where the government could help possibly. But they aren’t going to come to that conclusion until they understand what is happening in the English game and they aren’t going to understand that unless it’s scrutinised by Parliament. That’s only going to happen if local MP’s raise the issue in Parliament and that’s why we and all football fans should be backing this not questioning what it’s going to achieve. The latter only suits to give unscrupulous owners a let off.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
In light of the EFL being impotent I wonder if there’s a possibility in the future of the government giving them some backing/protection to make them less impotent. Something like learning about CCFC’s predicament may help educate the government in understanding just how poisoned the game is by bad owners, powerful agents etc and motivate the government to offer the EFL protection in law so something as simple as the fit and proper persons tests become fit for purpose. For instance if there was law that insisted that every investor in CCFC or any other football club for that matter was public knowledge as part of the fit and proper test they’d have to give this information to pass the fit and proper test and the EFL has a safeguard of law to enforce it without the risk of litigation. Might put hedge funds and investment vehicles of football and address issues that have effected our club and others. Let’s face it, we can speculate that it’s American universities or that SISU have purchased the investment back but we have no clue if any of that’s true and neither probably does the EFL. This is where the government could help possibly. But they aren’t going to come to that conclusion until they understand what is happening in the English game and they aren’t going to understand that unless it’s scrutinised by Parliament. That’s only going to happen if local MP’s raise the issue in Parliament and that’s why we and all football fans should be backing this not questioning what it’s going to achieve. The latter only suits to give unscrupulous owners a let off.

Not unless Damien Collins becomes Sports Minister.
 

Nick

Administrator
In light of the EFL being impotent I wonder if there’s a possibility in the future of the government giving them some backing/protection to make them less impotent. Something like learning about CCFC’s predicament may help educate the government in understanding just how poisoned the game is by bad owners, powerful agents etc and motivate the government to offer the EFL protection in law so something as simple as the fit and proper persons tests become fit for purpose. For instance if there was law that insisted that every investor in CCFC or any other football club for that matter was public knowledge as part of the fit and proper test they’d have to give this information to pass the fit and proper test and the EFL has a safeguard of law to enforce it without the risk of litigation. Might put hedge funds and investment vehicles of football and address issues that have effected our club and others. Let’s face it, we can speculate that it’s American universities or that SISU have purchased the investment back but we have no clue if any of that’s true and neither probably does the EFL. This is where the government could help possibly. But they aren’t going to come to that conclusion until they understand what is happening in the English game and they aren’t going to understand that unless it’s scrutinised by Parliament. That’s only going to happen if local MP’s raise the issue in Parliament and that’s why we and all football fans should be backing this not questioning what it’s going to achieve. The latter only suits to give unscrupulous owners a let off.

For that they would need to radically change Football in England in general starting with the Premier League. I'd love for it to be made more like Germany where it's all fan owned and for the love of the game and the sport but it's not really going to happen. While there is big money to be chased it will always be wrong in one way or another.

It isn't giving anybody a let off, it's being realistic of what will / won't happen.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
For that they would need to radically change Football in England in general starting with the Premier League. I'd love for it to be made more like Germany where it's all fan owned and for the love of the game and the sport but it's not really going to happen. While there is big money to be chased it will always be wrong in one way or another.

It isn't giving anybody a let off, it's being realistic of what will / won't happen.
Which is why this being debated in Parliament is important. It’s the first step of what probably will be many steps in bringing change about. Saying what will it achieve is lazy and completely misses the point.
 

Nick

Administrator
Which is why this being debated in Parliament is important. It’s the first step of what probably will be many steps in bringing change about. Saying what will it achieve is lazy and completely misses the point.

It doesn't miss the point though, does it? The same as asking what the other times we have been discussed has achieved when it just gets a few nods and then goes onto the next topic because nobody there is really that bothered and they can't really do anything.

Nobody actually has said what it will actually achieve either, or what the previous discussions achieved.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
It doesn't miss the point though, does it? The same as asking what the other times we have been discussed has achieved when it just gets a few nods and then goes onto the next topic because nobody there is really that bothered and they can't really do anything.

Nobody actually has said what it will actually achieve either, or what the previous discussions achieved.

NICK IS NEVER WRONG!

I think I’ll just leave it there.
 

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