New Stadium - The pessimist's view... (3 Viewers)

[Nick]

It would make them think , unfortunately due to the views held by many that ain't going to happen is it.

However if we somehow mounted a promotion push it would happen & the missing thousands would overcome their personal views- which takes us back to the original point, that the Ricoh was never the issue begind empty seats and atmosphere, the dross on the green bit in the middle was the issue.

So people aren't going to go next season because of views held by many but we should build a massive stadium just in case we get a cup draw against Liverpool?

The Ricoh very much was an issue with empty seats and atmosphere.

 

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[Ring Of Steel]

So people aren't going to go next season because of views held by many but we should build a massive stadium just in case we get a cup draw against Liverpool?

The Ricoh very much was an issue with empty seats and atmosphere.

Who is saying we should build a 'massive stadium'? 20,000 home seats would be about right, add on away, facilities etc and that takes you to about 24,000 or so, I don't think that counts as 'massive'.

The reason there were empty seats at The Ricoh was that we never had any success there & every time there was a big game we failed badly. Success & winning games= more fans= less empty seats= better atmosphere. We failed to do any of that.

 

[Nick]

Who is saying we should build a 'massive stadium'?

Building a stadium to cater for people who refuse to go "because of their views" on the basis we might get a big cup game is silly.

As I said, the way to show it wouldn't be big enough is for everybody to go to games to show them it just isn't viable. If we get 10-15K home fans next season then it just shows that it is about right.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Building a stadium to cater for people who refuse to go "because of their views" on the basis we might get a big cup game is silly.

As I said, the way to show it wouldn't be big enough is for everybody to go to games to show them it just isn't viable. If we get 10-15K home fans next season then it just shows that it is about right.

10-15k at St Andrews?
We won the league and only lost at home once last season and averaged 6,667. What would that have been playing in Cov in our own ground? You can without doubt double it, and we'd probably have ended with 15k or so average. Makes no sense to factor that in & limit crowds in a division above to that much. I agree with the principle of starting sensible, but what we are aiming at is too low.

 

[Nick]

10-15k at St Andrews?
We won the league and only lost at home once last season and averaged 6,667. What would that have been playing in Cov in our own ground? You can without doubt double it, and we'd probably have ended with 15k or so average. Makes no sense to factor that in & limit crowds in a division above to that much. I agree with the principle of starting sensible, but what we are aiming at is too low.

Did you get to many games last season?

The reason I am asking is that people who have sat at an empty Ricoh week in, week out will probably see things a lot differently. It isn't a dig.

The return from Sixfields was another indicator. "When city come back I will get my season ticket", "CCFC moving has ruined my life". Everybody vanishes after the first game back.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I think 25k is sensible if we stay in championship if we went up bigger I’d down then 20k could be too big.

Need some more progress before worrying about a few thousand seats here and there

 

[Nick]

I think 25k is sensible if we stay in championship if we went up bigger I’d down then 20k could be too big.

Need some more progress before worrying about a few thousand seats here and there

Exactly, that's why you build something that's easy to upgrade. If we did start competing at the top of the championship for example.

It could be that we go all in on the basis of being in the Premier League and we go back down to League One. Look where that got us with the Ricoh.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Did you get to many games last season?

The reason I am asking is that people who have sat at an empty Ricoh week in, week out will probably see things a lot differently. It isn't a dig.

The return from Sixfields was another indicator. "When city come back I will get my season ticket", "CCFC moving has ruined my life". Everybody vanishes after the first game back.

I got to 11 home games and 3 away, and I don't take it as a dig anyway, I'm not exactly around the corner & I've 'paid my dues' during the good times & bad. I am able to do them all next year aside from some midweek (covid allowing), so very happy about that.

The reason people do that- give it the big talk then not bother coming back is simple- we let them down. We never maintained any kind of success for several decades, of course people aren't going to keep coming back. Its different now- might not be in 5 years of course- but where we are now, for a club our size, having about 15,000 tickets max available is too small. I don't want 40,000 or even 30,000, but taking all factors into account & assuming we keep up the progress we see now & goodwill between fans & club, 20,000 home tickets would have been sensible, giving a capacity somewhere in the region of 24,000.

 

[Nick]

I got to 11 home games and 3 away, and I don't take it as a dig anyway, I'm not exactly around the corner & I've 'paid my dues' during the good times & bad. I am able to do them all next year aside from some midweek (covid allowing), so very happy about that.

The reason people do that- give it the big talk then not bother coming back is simple- we let them down. We never maintained any kind of success for several decades, of course people aren't going to keep coming back. Its different now- might not be in 5 years of course- but where we are now, for a club our size, having about 15,000 tickets max available is too small. I don't want 40,000 or even 30,000, but taking all factors into account & assuming we keep up the progress we see now & goodwill between fans & club, 20,000 home tickets would have been sensible, giving a capacity somewhere in the region of 24,000.

"We Let them down". Really? Let's build them a seat in case we win a few games or get Liverpool at home for them to want to come back?

I don't see the issue with starting off at 20,000 and then adding to it when it gets to the point where every game is sold out by season tickets only consistently. It needs to be sustainable, rather than if we are doing a bit shit on the pitch it's half empty because we have fickle fans.

 

[shmmeee]

Everybody had better get their season tickets ordered then and a sell out every game, better atmosphere.

Then if we got promoted to the Premier League then it could be looked at adding a few more thousand seats.

The way to show it isn't enough is to sell out every game next season when we can go back, that would make them think then.

Yeah and then in the year we spend building an upgrade we get relegated and you lot moan about a soulless bowl again.

RoS is right. The Ricoh was a ground for a Prem team that never came. The problem was relegation and a decade of failure, not the stadium design.

 

[Nick]

Yeah and then in the year we spend building an upgrade we get relegated and you lot moan about a soulless bowl again.

RoS is right. The Ricoh was a ground for a Prem team that never came. The problem was relegation and a decade of failure, not the stadium design.

So let's build another one for a Prem team on the hope we get there again?

 

[shmmeee]

For the record I’d have an 18k capacity at this new ground, because I think if we could support much bigger we should be at the Ricoh and 18k provides a nice space for smaller stuff aside from football.

But the idea that HR was ever anything but a morgue most days, or that the Ricoh itself is to blame for the poor atmosphere is nonsense.

 

[Nick]

For the record I’d have an 18k capacity at this new ground, because I think if we could support much bigger we should be at the Ricoh and 18k provides a nice space for smaller stuff aside from football.

But the idea that HR was ever anything but a morgue most days, or that the Ricoh itself is to blame for the poor atmosphere is nonsense.

You could make up for HR because at least it felt like "home" a bit more.

Plus you would sometimes get approached by prozzies after the game.

 

[shmmeee]

So let's build another one for a Prem team on the hope we get there again?

I don’t think we will get back to the Prem any time soon. But if we did, and we did what to you suggest, if we were to get relegated (more than likely) we’d be in exactly the same situation you’re complaining about. The issue is one of relegation not stadiumdesign is my point.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

"We Let them down". Really? Let's build them a seat in case we win a few games or get Liverpool at home for them to want to come back?

I don't see the issue with starting off at 20,000 and then adding to it when it gets to the point where every game is sold out by season tickets only consistently. It needs to be sustainable, rather than if we are doing a bit shit on the pitch it's half empty because we have fickle fans.

Yes, we let them down. Season after Northampton when all these people were going to come back- 17th in League One, procession of manager changes, Russell Slade and umpteen anonymous loanees, zero to get behind shortly followed up by relegation to the bottom division. Then Robins came back, we improved without ever really challenging and 4,000 immediately reappeared.

 

[oldskyblue58]

A quick Google tells me that MK Dons managed to do it on a £30m budget. Also their stadium is built for potential future expansion which is something we should do, just in case the Robbins juggernaut continues to the promised land.

Of course fans make the atmosphere, but stadiums can be designed to keep the noise in. The Ricoh was never designed to hold a good atmosphere, and having 2/3 of the seats empty every week obviously doesn’t help. The truth is we’re very rarely gonna have anywhere near a full house at the Ricoh, it’s much too big for us. A more compact ground with potential for expansion would be perfect.

Agree with your final point, would hate for it to be like Shrewsbury’s.


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No they didn't get it for 30m. Accounts filed at co house say cost of land and buildings was 106m - mk stadium property ltd with another couple million in mk stadium Ltd for fixtures etc

 

[Ring Of Steel]

So let's build another one for a Prem team on the hope we get there again?

I'm not sure who is saying we should do that.

For the record I’d have an 18k capacity at this new ground, because I think if we could support much bigger we should be at the Ricoh and 18k provides a nice space for smaller stuff aside from football.

But the idea that HR was ever anything but a morgue most days, or that the Ricoh itself is to blame for the poor atmosphere is nonsense.

HR was depressing as hell most games in the last few years, and thats coming from someone with a lump of concrete from the East Stand on his desk right now.

 

[Magwitch]

The claim by some the Ricoh is soulless need to look at the reasons since moving there we declined all the way to the fourth division I can count on one hand “big” games the play off semi v Wycombe, the Chelsea cup tie the Colchester Ricoh return the will be other one offs but I I’m struggling to remember many more. One problem at the Ricoh is a 1000 away fans can drown out the home. Add to that the selling the family silver policy by Fisher and Waggott and replacing them with youth team kids had its negative effect and down we went and we the fans knew we were heading that way. Even in our league two promotion year we huffed and puffed to get into sixth spot and last year never quiet managed a top six spot slot and to cap that this season when the fan base could have been tested we were in Birmingham. I thought at St Andrews the 5/6000 there did okay with their vocal support.
Having said all that in our support mitigation and the Ricoh I’m not a big fan of these types of stadium. When you see the various TV games it’s the old re-vamped grounds that are the loudest Selhurst Park, Turf Moor and Elland Road spring to mind. West Ham get 60000 now but it’s nothing like when they were at Upton Park with half that, Emirates the same.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I don’t think we will get back to the Prem any time soon. But if we did, and we did what to you suggest, if we were to get relegated (more than likely) we’d be in exactly the same situation you’re complaining about. The issue is one of relegation not stadiumdesign is my point.

Before Robins how many times did we get confronted by that stat- only club to not have a top 6 finish in 50 years or whatever it was- that will bring you low crowds and a poor atmosphere no matter what ground you are playing in.

The Bet365 and King Power- they are the same buildings as they were in 2005 with identical design & layout. Yet they both went from "soulless", "atmosphere free", "quiet" to being heralded as highly atmospheric grounds- nothing changed apart from success on the pitch. Exactly the same would have been true of The Ricoh, but we never came anywhere near to having success there.

 

[Grendel]

The capacity issue is silly at this stage.

However, A smaller than required stadium capacity allows ticket pricing to be maximised as supply exceeds demand and season tickets would increase

The Ricoh was an over bloated project beyond the clubs requirements and had huge restrictions on it even before issues arose from the clubs perspective

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

"We Let them down". Really? Let's build them a seat in case we win a few games or get Liverpool at home for them to want to come back?

I don't see the issue with starting off at 20,000 and then adding to it when it gets to the point where every game is sold out by season tickets only consistently. It needs to be sustainable, rather than if we are doing a bit shit on the pitch it's half empty because we have fickle fans.

It’s also a building of trust and respect to see change and optimism and turning up not just When we win but because we have an identity, we feel valued as supporters, the team engage and we have a common vision

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It’s also a building of trust and respect to see change and optimism and turning up not just When we win but because we have an identity, we feel valued as supporters, the team engage and we have a common vision

That is very true, however it all starts with what happens on the pitch. We might just be on course to have both at the moment, which I don't recall happening in my lifetime apart from a few glorious months back in the 80s.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Personally I think the Ricoh is a soulless bowl with far too many seats that are too far away from the pitch. It’s never felt like home for me. I’d love to make a fresh start at a new stadium designed to create a great atmosphere, and without all the baggage and bad memories of the Ricoh.

If this goes ahead, I hope they learn from the mistakes at the Ricoh. I’d love it to be 2-tiers all the way round so we can just use the bottom tier if attendances fall (see MK Dons). Having all the fans on one side at the Ricoh makes for a poor atmosphere.

Love the idea of having one stand with the 2-tone cheques.

Appreciate there’s a long way to go for this to become a reality, but bloody hell I’m excited by the prospect of it!


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It's the people that create the atmosphere, not the building. It was a very negative time for the club, falling away both on and off the pitch and less people were going, made worse by the fact we were in a bigger stadium. All that translates through to the fans. Plus you need those memorable games that are inextricably linked to the place. A lot of us had a lifetime to generate those memories at HR, mixed in with older families members memories too and a link to previous generations.

Had we been doing well and continuing to get decent size crowds the Ricoh would've become home. A generation or two down the line and they'd have had feelings for the Ricoh akin to what we feel for HR.

 

[shmmeee]

It’s an attractive product on the pitch. That’s literally it. Attendances scale with league position and not much else. You want crowds? Put out a successful team (in a nearby location I should add).

Everything else is people own romanticism or cynicism quite frankly. The idea that the ground matters or the parking matters or how often the owners put out press releases matter is just wishful thinking.

Even “well supported” clubs like Norwich it Sunderland are a function of historic success and location.

This place just likes to moralise an economic issue.

 

[fernandopartridge]

18k is fine, the reality is that our chances of promotion are low. We've been down the road of a bigger ground to grow into and it was an disaster, let's not make the same mistake twice. The PL payday in any case is not tickets but TV money which does not care about capacity.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

You could make up for HR because at least it felt like "home" a bit more.

Plus you would sometimes get approached by prozzies after the game.

But you'd had time to make HR feel like home.

If you got taken as a kid even if it was a small crowd and not a great game it felt exciting and busy. You can't recreate that sense of wonder as an adult at a new ground. I bet the first time you had sex wasn't the greatest but you look back on it fondly because it was a first experience. If you had that same thing now you'd find it totally underwhelming.

For a comparable experience you'd need to ask those 20-somethings whose first game was at the Ricoh. They've probably got fond memories of that first game and it would feel like 'home' to them.

I'm sure when we moved to HR there were people at the time complaining it didn't feel the same or like 'home'.

 

[shmmeee]

I do think there’s a lot to be said for restricting tickets and making it a Premium Experience. iFollow and TV money make in game attendance less important financially.

It’s just the playing side and how they’d feel in various atmospheres I’d guess that’s the issue. And we all want to be Barcelona playing in front of 70k.

 

[Senior Vick from Alicante]

Until the foundation stones are laid we have the same as we did when Fish face announced the stadium the first time round. Why build a stadium unless you know the fan base will be there, we may now have a hard core of 10k or less and the figures would need to stack for the numbers guys at Sisu. It raises the stakes for Wasps and the council and I think we are nearing the point of no return, even though Richardson is believed to want us back. I just believe the tie in with WU was always in the big plan but for a new training complex, that way can have your cake and eat it. If you go back to the Richo you can still build a stadium like England's one at St George's park with a 2000 capacity. You've still built a stadium which saves face and you can play reserve and development games on. Just thoughts and we are along way from building, I just hope now Sisu have earned some good will with the fans for on the pitch activity they don't blow it off the pitch with empty promises.

 

[Nick]

Yes, we let them down. Season after Northampton when all these people were going to come back- 17th in League One, procession of manager changes, Russell Slade and umpteen anonymous loanees, zero to get behind shortly followed up by relegation to the bottom division. Then Robins came back, we improved without ever really challenging and 4,000 immediately reappeared.

"We fight till the game is won"
"City till I die"

 

[Frostie]

But you'd had time to make HR feel like home.

If you got taken as a kid even if it was a small crowd and not a great game it felt exciting and busy. You can't recreate that sense of wonder as an adult at a new ground. I bet the first time you had sex wasn't the greatest but you look back on it fondly because it was a first experience. If you had that same thing now you'd find it totally underwhelming.

For a comparable experience you'd need to ask those 20-somethings whose first game was at the Ricoh. They've probably got fond memories of that first game and it would feel like 'home' to them.

I'm sure when we moved to HR there were people at the time complaining it didn't feel the same or like 'home'.

The style of football stadia like Highfield Road when they were just nestled away in the middle of a housing estate then suddenly appearing as if out of nowhere was magical for me as a kid.
Nowadays they're largely just huge ugly bowls at Retail Parks & similar, all of that magic is lost.

 

[SBT]

A lot of sense coming from both sides of the debate on here. The desire to escape the Ricoh is well-intentioned, and the chances of us returning there on favourable terms seems pretty remote atm. With the team doing well, there's more good will for the owners' intentions than there has been in a decade. The case for a fresh start is (temporarily, at least) more compelling than it ever was, including at Highfield Road.

I'm just not convinced that trying another flatpack stadium with a hypothetical rail station, only this time in a different part of the city's outskirts, is going to obviously be better than what we could/should have with the Ricoh. Let alone a good way to spend 30 million quid. Surely as a fanbase we would know better than most that you can't just stadium-build your way into stability? What happens if we move to Warwick Uni only to plummet into L2 again? Build a fourth stadium in Binley?

 

[shmmeee]

A lot of sense coming from both sides of the debate on here. The desire to escape the Ricoh is well-intentioned, and the chances of us returning there on favourable terms seems pretty remote atm. With the team doing well, there's more good will for the owners' intentions than there has been in a decade. The case for a fresh start is (temporarily, at least) more compelling than it ever was, including at Highfield Road.

I'm just not convinced that trying another flatpack stadium with a hypothetical rail station, only this time in a different part of the city's outskirts, is going to obviously be better than what we could/should have with the Ricoh. Let alone a good way to spend 30 million quid. Surely as a fanbase we would know better than most that you can't just stadium-build your way into stability? What happens if we move to Warwick Uni only to plummet into L2 again? Build a fourth stadium in Binley?

How about we build a stadium for each potential division. I’d argue non league and below is taken care of. Ricoh for the Prem. Butts for L2, Warwick Uni for Championship. Just need a 12k ground for L1 and we’re sorted.

 

[SBT]

How about we build a stadium for each potential division. I’d argue non league and below is taken care of. Ricoh for the Prem. Butts for L2, Warwick Uni for Championship. Just need a 12k ground for L1 and we’re sorted.

I mean, you joke, but this idea that we can just build a modular/easily expandable stadium (which I'm yet to see a decent real-life example of) and then not worry about it is pretty much exactly that.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Yes, but we could also ask how, as an example, Stoke went from 16k to selling out 28k every match in one season, while seemingly transforming their ground from a hated soulless bowl to a loud cauldron which teams hated going to. Success is the answer. We are on the right trajectory, so while I don't think anyone is saying we need 30k immediately, building the 48th biggest ground in the country and 4th smallest in the division (for a team that can produce 40,000 fans instantly when success comes calling) is pretty strange.

Stoke are an interesting example. Stadium was renowned for being shite, windswept, desolate when they were down among the dead men. Then it suddenly had a cracking atmosphere!

That said, I hate the Ricoh, and always have really. This argument is a bit like 2003 all over again

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

How about we build a stadium for each potential division. I’d argue non league and below is taken care of. Ricoh for the Prem. Butts for L2, Warwick Uni for Championship. Just need a 12k ground for L1 and we’re sorted.

This could technically be down with different tiers and/or shutting off corner sections. Open up as many as needed depending on demand, starting with the lowest.

So with a two tier stadium
PL - whole stadium open
Championship - shut some sections of upper tier
L1 - lower tier open
L2 - lower tier less corners