More false Coventry council claims exposed over Ricoh Wasps deal-Les Reid

Discussion in 'Coventry City General Chat' started by skybluebeduff, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    It will be interesting, in a car crash kind of way, to see how this all pans out. It's been questioned a few times on here in the past why people like Reid, Garlick etc have 'sided' with SISU after meeting with them, could it be we're starting to see why?
     
  2. lordsummerisle

    lordsummerisle Well-Known Member

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    It was the "Private Eye" are Sisu stooges type comments that got to me.
     
  3. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

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    Two things here that are factually incorrect:

    First, the idea that a letter written by (say) Seppala to Lucas would become Lucas's 'property' and then be either inadmissable in court or legally unpublishable. That's just not true SBK, not even slightly. Think it through - if your bank sends you a letter saying that they are taking you to court, and then they take you to court, they will produce a copy of that letter to the court to prove that you've been warned. If Seppala sent a letter to Lucas, and kept a copy, she's entitled to show that copy to whomever she likes.

    Second, I challenged Reid a few times over stuff on twitter. We had some pretty strong arguments, but it was done politely and neither of us ended up blocking the other. There's a world of difference between attacking what a person has said, and attacking the person. There's an awful lot of the latter on twitter, which is why I've largely abandoned it, fwiw. I've subsequently met Les in person and we argued about stuff again, this time over a pint. We differed on some things then too, but I certainly didn't come away thinking he was a SISU puppet.

    As it turns out most of the stuff he said in terms of what the council has been doing seems to have turned out to be mostly true. As someone who argued long and loud that the council were largely blameless and had CCFC's best interests at heart, I've got to admit that it seems I've got it wrong here. Lucas now describes the club as a franchise, and the council have been caught in so many lies and half-truths that's it's difficult to know exactly what was ever really going on.

    If you think that by saying all this that I'm defending SISU, then like your interpretation of Reid, you're lacking all nuance. Saying that the council have done wrong is not saying that SISU have done right. Both sides here should be ashamed of themselves - but in truth I expect SISU to be crap. As public servants with their hands on public funds, the council should and must be held to a higher standard.
     
  4. italiahorse

    italiahorse Well-Known Member

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    You really need to let it go.
    They were bluffing Sisu who were bluffing them.
    Are you still hoping that CCC and ACL fall over and Sisu can start the play for the Ricoh freehold again ?
     
  5. Mary_Mungo_Midge

    Mary_Mungo_Midge Well-Known Member

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    But at what time was this letter sent? Presumably after the Average League One rent stance; but before the unfettered freehold stance?

    The 'unfettered freehold' line is confirmed in the CET article Simon Gilbert has linked to; and also - I'm sure - confirmed to posters on here by Labovitch when people met him: NorthernWisdom: can you confirm (was it you who posted he said it to you?)
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  6. The Philosopher

    The Philosopher Member

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    Liblabcon all the same. Labour take high ground yet seem to be at the centre of any treachery. Tory not much better.
    Labour Council should now help the club, for their own, and the People of Cov's good.
    I can see this being appealed to EU Court (higher than Appeal court, higher than UK Supreme). They may well lose there, it seems that the evidence is coming out.
    Labour are not part of the Establishment in the EU circles, so their influence (Gov does have influence in UK Legal system, at the moment the Court action is against the UK Government by extension and SISU will have a tougher time than they will if they get to appeal up under EU State aid).
    Just my views, I'm a Eurosceptic yet it seems that EU law may have a part to play, ironically.
     
  7. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    As I've said elsewhere CD those ACL officers would have expected the FL enforced compo of circa £600K to hit the books while making those claims SISU delayed them by around six months
    A technicality maybe but I don't think lies
    Not withstanding they were still unprofitable without Incomes from the club and not the success claimed
     
  8. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Who was bluffing? Not Lucas as she's saying she's just relayed what she was told. Were the council officers bluffing, what did they have to bluff about. It could well be if they have then it is illegal, it certainly is if its a stock exchange listed company, you're simply not allowed to release false information as it distorts the market and the value of your company.

    So what you're saying is I should be let go that a public body has told numerous lies to the people it is responsible to and not have any desire to see action taken against people who have at best behaved reprehensibly, at worst potentially illegally.

    What I'm hoping for is the truth. Many others on here claimed to want the same until it turned out CCC might be to blame when it suddenly became 'it's in the past' and 'need to move on'. I would like to see the loan repaid by Wasps, either voluntarily or being ordered by the courts, so that the taxpayer isn't exposed to any risk. In an absolutely ideal world I would like to see this leading to CCFC taking a 50% stake in the stadium.
     
  9. Mary_Mungo_Midge

    Mary_Mungo_Midge Well-Known Member

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    What 'numerous lies'?
     
  10. dongonzalos

    dongonzalos Well-Known Member

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    Does the article Les Reid wrote about his exclusive interview in the CET not Categorically and repeatedly state ownership and freehold only?
     
  11. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Surely if it was that simple that message would have been relayed and Lucas would have said that. And of course that sill implies that ACL need CCFC or at least money from CCFC. What is being disputed is the claim that ACL was profitable without CCFC, it wasn't. Saying it was only if CCFC were to pay £600K is actually proving the point!
     
  12. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    If an interest had been shown in the lease, at any point, then it shows there has been an interest in the lease. It is then incorrect to say at no point has any interest been shown in the lease! Although again we are in a situation where single statements from SISU, who apparently never tell the truth, are being held up as gospel to support an argument. Remember how we were never again playing at the Ricoh, where are we playing now?

    I feel you also need to drill down on what exactly SISU wanted as you could make an argument that by extending the lease by 200 years CCC have given Wasps a 200 year unfettered lease as ACL would not have been able to issue any existing contracts past the end of their previous lease. Again it comes down to the question of what CCC offered the club, was a similar deal to that done with Wasps offered to us?
     
  13. italiahorse

    italiahorse Well-Known Member

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    Dream on.
    Your starting to sound like a Sisu lawyer.
    Wingy above has a point in respect that the money owed by Sisu to ACL was in that accounting period.
    That at the time would have been £200k profit.
    You need to move on and perhaps Sisu will too.
     
  14. The Philosopher

    The Philosopher Member

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    I can't help but think the the whole "State Aid" question may resurface in line with the Wasps and ACL deal.
    The recent Council "we may allow planning in Holbrooks" statement was far more telling than it seems on the surface.
    This ain't over yet folks!
     
  15. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Few off the top of my head:

    Money for the loan to ACL has not come from CCC funds
    ACL is making a profit without CCFC
    CCFC only account for 10% of ACLs business
    Lucas claiming SISU had shown no interest in a lease
    Lucas stating they were hoping to rebuild the relationship with SISU following CCFC's return

    Sure if you go back through the councils statements you will find more.
     
  16. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Have to laugh at that considering the number of posts made on here in the past having a pop at more for being so defensive of the council! All I'm doing, as I have done all along, is looking at the currently available evidence and making a judgement based on that. Some people on here seem so blinded by their hatred of SISU they can't consider the possibility that CCC may not be whiter than white in this.

    So what you're saying is if in the accounting period in question CCFC had made a large payment to ACL then ACL would have made profit. I'm not really seeing how that proves that ACL at the time was profitable without receiving income from CCFC, to me it seems to prove the opposite.

    Italia, simple question, do you want to get to the bottom of this and find out the truth about what has been done to our club? If not why don't you feel that should be done? We've had months if not years of people saying they want the truth, as soon as there's anything said against CCC that suddenly changes.
     
  17. shmmeee

    shmmeee Well-Known Member

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    Evidence for any of that being a "lie" as opposed to being badly informed (ACL's profit status) or he said/she said (the last two)?

    What do you want to happen? Another court case? Wasps kicked out? CCFC handed the Ricoh for free? Can you seriously argue that giving the Ricoh to CCFC would have been better for the City of Coventry than the Wasps deal?

    You know the questions, you asked them enough before you joined the hivemind on here. How about some answers?

    Long and short is still that CCFC decided they didn't want to play at the Ricoh any more. Everything else is noise (on both sides).
     
  18. italiahorse

    italiahorse Well-Known Member

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    It was one bloke, not a council statement.
    Stop fighting Sisu battles and tell them to move on.
     
  19. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

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    If I've read it right MMM, the 'unfettered freehold' comment by Lucas was in Jan 2014:

    http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-council-leader-says-6600224

    The letter stating 'long leasehold' might be acceptable was sent in November 2013, according to the Reid article:

    http://www.coventryobserver.co.uk/2...s-over-controversial-stadium-deal-125024.html

    Regardless, the fact is that SISU made an offer for the same kind of deal as Wasps when they were allowed to. JG is quite right in saying that SISU attached conditions to it which seemingly made it unacceptable to Higgs (disregarding perhaps the fact that it seems no one genuinely wanted to sell to SISU), but clearly there was potential for some sort of deal had the council and Higgs not sold secretly to Wasps. So on the evidence it's not correct to suggest that no deal was possible because SISU wanted unfettered freehold - that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

    If the council had done what they said that they were going to do when the club returned to the Ricoh, that is leave some time to rebuild trust between the parties before talking about an ownership deal, then who know how things might have panned out in a year or two. By that point it would have been clear that ACL could not survive without the club, and also that the club did not have a feasible plan to build elsewhere. A deal between the two parties would surely have been the most obvious solution.

    Instead though, the council rushed through the sale to Wasps, justifying it by saying that a business they had claimed was profitable when it needed bailing out by the taxpayer was actually unprofitable. In doing so they shut the door on the club forever, regardless of who will subsequently own it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  20. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    I can't see any way we're not getting a whole new batch of legal action. I wouldn't be surprised if the information coming out now is exactly what SISU were after when they were asking for access to CCC records.
     
  21. shmmeee

    shmmeee Well-Known Member

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    How is more spin and unverifable statements "getting to the truth"?

    We went over this. People wanted a court case, not a media battle. We had a court case (in fact we had several) and they came out pretty definitively against SISU.

    There come a point where it's not "truth" you're after but one thing you can hang your point on. The irony of accusing others of doing this while you ignore the years of evidence and the opinions of very well qualified people (who were not sacked for hanging out with Fisher and co) so that you can hang on for some kind of "truth".

    As I said: 9/11 conspiracy theorists have a better time handling fact and evidence.
     
  22. Godiva

    Godiva Well-Known Member

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    The delay in receiving the payment wouldn't have any effect on profit/loss in the books. Only the cash flow would be effected.
    If you send an invoice within the 2013 financial year - the income is booked in that year, even if the payment is received in the next financial year.
     
  23. covmark

    covmark Well-Known Member

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    No one is fighting Sisu's battles you clown. People want to know what has happened in the destruction of our club. You obviously aren't bothered because it seems the council may have had more of a hand in it than you thought. Now toddle off back to the wasps forum.
     
  24. shmmeee

    shmmeee Well-Known Member

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    The council was talknig to Sisu for three years about the Ricoh, two full years before entering into discussion with Wasps. Sisu were given the chance to bid on even terms, their bid wasn't as good a deal for the charity or the people of Coventry. Sisu repeatedly (even while bidding) claimed they didn't want the Ricoh long term.
     
  25. shmmeee

    shmmeee Well-Known Member

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    Mature.

    Do you think CCC should've taken the offer from Sisu despite it beuing worth less? Wouldn't that be illegal state aid?
     
  26. lordsummerisle

    lordsummerisle Well-Known Member

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    Why was the offer from Sisu less?
     
  27. lordsummerisle

    lordsummerisle Well-Known Member

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  28. Godiva

    Godiva Well-Known Member

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    When did sisu make an offer to CCC?
     
  29. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

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    If the financial miscalculation - ACL being definitively profitable and without risk when it needed bailing out, and then being unprofitable when it needed selling to Wasps wasn't a flat out lie, then boy was it convenient for Lucas and CCC that they were told exactly the wrong thing at exactly the right time, eh.

    As for 'giving the Ricoh to CCFC', I'm not quite sure where that was proposed, but doing a deal with the club on the same lines as the Wasps deal would certainly be better for the City of Coventry if you care about the success of the local teams rather than the franchise, and if you've got any kind of inkling of how much more footfall and money a successful football team brings to the city, as compared to a franchise rugby team.

    The long and short of it is that we don't know what would have happened in a couple of years, but with ACL failing without the club, and the club failing to build a new ground it doesn't take a genius to see what would probably have happened. No chance of that now - but don't try to sell me the line that it's good for the City if this really does lead to the club leaving or continuing to struggle, it clearly isn't.

    And btw the 'hivemind' thing is a meaningless personal insult - rise above it or expect the same back.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  30. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Money for the loan to ACL has not come from CCC funds - "The council loan to ACL was capital expenditure by the council", CCC response to question from Reid
    ACL is making a profit without CCFC - accounts released last week show this is false
    CCFC only account for 10% of ACLs business - accounts released last week would suggest this is false
    Lucas claiming SISU had shown no interest in a lease - Reid claims SISU - Letter to Lucas Nov 2014
    Lucas stating they were hoping to rebuild the relationship with SISU following CCFC's return - "We recognise that this stalemate had to be broken, and that if the club could come home it would help everyone ...begin to rebuild and repair damaged relationships, so we’re pleased that ACL has been able to come to an agreement with the club" CCC statement at the end of August, 18th September news of the sale to Wasps broke, it is inconceivable to me that at the time CCC made that statement they were unaware of negotiations with Wasps.

    I want the truth and if there is any wrongdoing on the council side I want them to held to account, I don't think that is in any way unreasonable. I said the same about SISU and the same can apply to any party involved in this mess from Richardson onwards.

    I suspect there will be another court case, I would expect CCC to take their own disciplinary action as Lucas has stated she has been lied to be officers of the council. I suspect it will end up in a new court case, I would prefer if everyone could get round a table and come to some sort of amicable arrangement but I suspect we are long past this stage. Now ACL has been sold to Wasps I don't think CCC can propose any solution that SISU would deem acceptable. I expect CCC to speak with Wasps and arrange for the loan to be repaid immediately with Wasps sourcing replacement, independent, financing.

    I would argue that the Wasps deal has damaged both CCFC and CRFC (who the council claimed had been consulted only for CRFC to state they didn't know anything about it). I think CCFC is larger than SISU and will (hopefully!) be here long after SISU. I think CCC have acted out of spite for SISU leading to a situation that could do severe damage to the club for decades to come. I absolutely think CCFC owning ACL would be preferable to Wasps owning it. I would be unhappy with a 50/50 split as I don't agree with franchising but at this point I would accept it.
     
  31. covmark

    covmark Well-Known Member

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    CCFC should have been offered the same deal as Wasps.
     
  32. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    Labovitz said they would accept a very long lease as long as all revenues were in place to me.
     
  33. rupert_bear

    rupert_bear Well-Known Member

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    In the bottom 6 of division 3 and with division 4 looming large and then the conference, yet again there's another bullshit thread about the council, the Ricoh add a bit of Wasps.
    Can't there be a separate forum dedicated to those who just want or even need to talk the politics probably not though as nick thrives on it.
     
  34. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

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    SISU were not given the chance to bid on even terms. Not even close. When were SISU offered the chance to bid for 100% of ACL with a 250-year lease?

    Otium were grudgingly offered 50% after the fact, with a deadline on the bid and no scope for negotiation, so that Higgs fulfilled the bare minimum required of them by the law. In effect Wasps offer had already been accepted.

    The deal with Wasps was made secretly at the same point that the council claimed that time was needed to rebuild trust with CCFC - so it's also absolutely not true that CCC were talking to SISU about buying ACL at this point in time, in fact they'd clearly discouraged those types of conversations on CCFC's return.

    And yes, SISU claimed they were moving on, and still do. I don't think anyone believed that it was likely, but the actions of the council have undoubtedly increased exactly that possibility now, unless you're one of those who think that Wasps will for some reason sell to us what they claim they need for themselves.
     
  35. Mary_Mungo_Midge

    Mary_Mungo_Midge Well-Known Member

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    Okay - but honestly - do you not recall someone else saying, and I'm sure it was NorthernWisdom - stating hat he was clearly told it was freehold only?
     

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