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Mean while back in court (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter sotonskyblue
  • Start date Feb 2, 2016
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fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #211
oldskyblue58 said:
Sorry fp had to rejig that..... no one has decided that CCC provided state aid as yet
Click to expand...

you know what I meant. I was talking from then point of view of SISU's solicitors. They're not asking question they're trying to prove it happened.
 

eastwoodsdustman

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #212
italiahorse said:
IMO there is nothing wrong in a council providing money to a private business providing it is at commercial rates and therefore not a subsidy.

It's not as obvious a case as the government providing state aid to the steel industry so our steel is cheaper than the rest of europeans hence giving us an advantage.
Click to expand...


Even if they pay roughly twice what the bank had agreed with another party to sell the debt for?
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #213
eastwoodsdustman said:
Even if they pay roughly twice what the bank had agreed with another party to sell the debt for?
Click to expand...

Was there such an agreement......... SISU said they could do it ........... Yorkshire Bank told the CCC that because of the restructuring at ACL then the business was viable and they would not even discount to £12m
 

eastwoodsdustman

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #214
We'll find out soon I think. I would think that this is Sisu's main point of argument.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #215
dongonzalos said:
Now that one you should really understand Nick from the making of a murderer
Barristers painting a picture
Click to expand...

Yes but that surely means ACL DID agree / want the rent strike then? As he would need to prove it if questioned on it wouldn't he?
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #216
not sure it is. As shareholders in ACL I think CCC were entitled to make their own decision on the loan or who they sell to etc even if SISU were suggesting something that may have been better on the face of it. Entitled to weigh everything up and decide on the best deal overall, and for charities and councils it is not just about the money. I think there were probably strings attached to their (sisu) plan - did CCC feel comfortable with those strings. Was what happened the best deal for the Charity and CCC? It wasn't for CCFC certainly but that's different

Still comes down to were CCC entitled under state aid rules to structure the deal they did. What SISU had proposed is back ground to that imo. (not that my opinion matters its only the judges one that does)
 
Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
J

John_Silletts_Nose

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #217
Do we know if a judgement on the appeal will be passed today or will the judges take a few days to consider their decision?
 

olderskyblue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #218
dongonzalos said:
It is strange through that in the high court hearing the SISU QC never mentioned this fact. That is now a key point for him.
He had to have known about it back then. When they were accused of a rent strike in order to drive down the value. Why not negate it then?
Click to expand...

Yes, that is strange. If SISU lose this, maybe they will sue Rhodri for damages.....
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #219
olderskyblue said:
Yes, that is strange. If SISU lose this, maybe they will sue Rhodri for damages.....
Click to expand...

It was mentioned implicitly in the first JR but it wasn't really emphasised that the council was on board with the rent strike.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #220
eastwoodsdustman said:
Even if they pay roughly twice what the bank had agreed with another party to sell the debt for?
Click to expand...

There was no agreement with the other party.
Sisu thought they could get it for £2M and no more than £5M and it was not acceptable to YB.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #221
John_Silletts_Nose said:
Do we know if a judgement on the appeal will be passed today or will the judges take a few days to consider their decision?
Click to expand...

If it runs true to form it will drag on for several more weeks while the judges consider the evidence.
Not sure how much pre reading they have done into the details.
 

olderskyblue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #222
fernandopartridge said:
It was mentioned implicitly in the first JR but it wasn't really emphasised that the council was on board with the rent strike.
Click to expand...

And that's the part I meant...

Seems quite an omission really
 

olderskyblue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #223
John_Silletts_Nose said:
Do we know if a judgement on the appeal will be passed today or will the judges take a few days to consider their decision?
Click to expand...

If they are anything like us, they will have already made their mind up, and things like truth and facts will not change their view...





* thankfully, they are nothing like us...
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #224
oldskyblue58 said:
Was there such an agreement......... SISU said they could do it ........... Yorkshire Bank told the CCC that because of the restructuring at ACL then the business was viable and they would not even discount to £12m
Click to expand...

Didn't the council reach some sort of settlement agreement, meaning they did not pay YB full price, but maybe 80% of it after making several offers but getting knocked back on the first few.
 
Last edited: Feb 4, 2016

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #225
John_Silletts_Nose said:
Do we know if a judgement on the appeal will be passed today or will the judges take a few days to consider their decision?
Click to expand...

No chance, on past form they'll be a week or 2 getting the conclusions written up & then there will be another sitting to pass judgement.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #226
olderskyblue said:
And that's the part I meant...

Seems quite an omission really
Click to expand...

It came across quite clearly in the evidence, you'd expect a judge to be able to read between the lines, wouldn't you?
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #227
Council QC now on his feet.
He begins: “The council had a commercial interest in ACL, at the time that was under threat. The council’s concern was to respond to that and protect that interest.
“We submit the learned judge (High Court) was correct, that a private investor in the same circumstances would have entered into the loan transaction with ACL. That is it.”
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #228
Sounds as if we're approaching a technical issue. If damages are paid to SISU who will pay them, and if it's the government, why aren't they in court? Adjournment imminent?
 
J

John_Silletts_Nose

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #229
Captain Dart said:
No chance, on past form they'll be a week or 2 getting the conclusions written up & then there will be another sitting to pass judgement.
Click to expand...

That is normal practice although you never can tell, the judges will be well briefed prior to the commencement of the appeal and aware of much of the detail.
 

olderskyblue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #230
fernandopartridge said:
It came across quite clearly in the evidence, you'd expect a judge to be able to read between the lines, wouldn't you?
Click to expand...

Did it? you memory is better than mine FP.. I concede that point your honour...
 
D

dongonzalos

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #231
fernandopartridge said:
It was mentioned implicitly in the first JR but it wasn't really emphasised that the council was on board with the rent strike.
Click to expand...

Was it I can't even remember it getting a mention.

So did the SISU QC tell the judge that the council suggested SISU don't pay the rent and this was agreed by the council QC as well?
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #232
dongonzalos said:
Was it I can't even remember it getting a mention.

So did the SISU QC tell the judge that the council suggested SISU don't pay the rent and this was agreed by the council QC as well?
Click to expand...

It wasn't written in a headline so you'd have missed it.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #233
I am confused now:

"That's where Sisu's case totally breaks down"

Council QC says the threat came from the “rent strike”
He adds “Sisu’s conduct does come into equation, it takes centre stage. It represented a threat to the council’s commercial interest that could not be ignored.
“Up to the rent strike ACL was profitable, consequence of the rent strike was to place council in circcumstance it could not ignore.

“What could they have done instead that would have been a lesser commercial evil? That’s where Sisu’s case totally breaks down.”
Click to expand...

So surely, it is relevant whether it was a rent strike or ACL were in on it?

If it is proven ACL were on it, some of the reasons for the bail out / loan are invalid?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #234
I'm not following, and I'm trying very hard not to get dragged back into this crap.

But.

If it were an agreement to let ACL go bust, wouldn't that then be falling foul of state aid laws for helping Sisu?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #235
shmmeee said:
I'm not following, and I'm trying very hard not to get dragged back into this crap.

But.

If it were an agreement to let ACL go bust, wouldn't that then be falling foul of state aid laws for helping Sisu?
Click to expand...

It would also be a bit dodgy to say "we will let ACL go bust" and then shit themselves and then bail ACL out from the council. Especially if it was the council staff who were also at ACL involved.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #236
shmmeee said:
I'm not following, and I'm trying very hard not to get dragged back into this crap.

But.

If it were an agreement to let ACL go bust, wouldn't that then be falling foul of state aid laws for helping Sisu?
Click to expand...

No. It isn't helping SISU directly any more than it's helping anybody else.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #237
fernandopartridge said:
No. It isn't helping SISU directly any more than it's helping anybody else.
Click to expand...

Even if it's an agreement with Sisu and they are the most likely benefactors?

Isn't that a bit like saying "I'm not bribing you, I'm just leaving this pile of cash unattended for a few minutes in your presence."?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #238
Was there proof that ACL were in on the rent stuff in the first one? As in concrete evidence?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #239
This is probably why people get pissed off with the Telegraph. Just in case anybody had forgotten about Wasps today....

 

Nick

Administrator
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #240
All of the justification is based on the Rent Strike so far, so surely if or if it wasn't a strike or it was agreed is relevant?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #241
Nick said:
This is probably why people get pissed off with the Telegraph. Just in case anybody had forgotten about Wasps today....

Click to expand...

It is an article that had just mentioned Premiership Rugby in the previous update and is about a building owned by Wasps.

You're a little sensitive dude.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #242
Nick said:
I am confused now:



So surely, it is relevant whether it was a rent strike or ACL were in on it?

If it is proven ACL were on it, some of the reasons for the bail out / loan are invalid?
Click to expand...

No dummy the judges have already said that is irrelevant, see http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threa...ack-in-court?p=1036256&viewfull=1#post1036256

Remember the law is an ass, common sense & touchy feely emotional responses do not apply.
 
Last edited: Feb 4, 2016

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #243
Nick said:
All of the justification is based on the Rent Strike so far, so surely if or if it wasn't a strike or it was agreed is relevant?
Click to expand...

I don't know, but can they agree that and is it binding?

I mean if I sign a contract saying I'll pay £10 a month, then some guy on the customer service line says "nah, fuck it, pay £5" I'm still legally obliged to pay the £10 aren't I? Wouldn't you have to sign a new contract at the new rate to not fall foul of the old one?
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #244
Nick said:
I am confused now:

So surely, it is relevant whether it was a rent strike or ACL were in on it?

If it is proven ACL were on it, some of the reasons for the bail out / loan are invalid?
Click to expand...

It was dismissed by the judge at the original JR although I can't see where it was mentioned initially. Item 31


  1. First, I do not accept that, prior to August 2012, the parties had been cooperating,intent only on a commercial solution for the benefit of all. Rather, whilst there hadbeen discussions, each party (but particularly SISU) had, understandably, been intenton protecting its own commercial interests.
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 4, 2016
  • #245
Pretry sure there was correspondence after the idea of a rent strike between CCC /higgs declining the idea of a rent strike.
In which case it's all a bit he said she said.
 
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