Man beheaded in Paris

clint van damme

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They should, but they aren't, for all kinds of reasons. Some of them controversial, most of them not.

It really doesn't seem like the most pressing free speech issue in the world today, but of course now it's the single most controversial free speech issue on the planet. And that's entirely because of fundamentalist lunatics. Society as a whole has risen to the bait (admittedly it's pretty fucking big bait) and we go round in circles because people's emotions get triggered every time by this stuff. The heat generated from stories like this just ends up making people less tolerant, and plays right into the hands of the people who started this bullshit.

Obviously freedom of speech is important, I would just rather we didn't let maniacs set the agenda each and every time. They're not going to stop doing their part anytime soon - so why don't we?
If we stop depicting images of the prophet because of these attacks we are letting them set the agenda, and they'll then move on to its next item.

Yes, to carry on doing it generates 'heat' but unfortunately there is no easy, painless way out of this when there are such fanatics in the world.
 

Sky Blue Pete

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If we stop depicting images of the prophet because of these attacks we are letting them set the agenda, and they'll then move on to its next item.

Yes, to carry on doing it generates 'heat' but unfortunately there is no easy, painless way out of this when there are such fanatics in the world.
That’s the truth
 

shmmeee

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They should, but they aren't, for all kinds of reasons. Some of them controversial, most of them not.

It really doesn't seem like the most pressing free speech issue in the world today, but of course now it's the single most controversial free speech issue on the planet. And that's entirely because of fundamentalist lunatics. Society as a whole has risen to the bait (admittedly it's pretty fucking big bait) and we go round in circles because people's emotions get triggered every time by this stuff. The heat generated from stories like this just ends up making people less tolerant, and plays right into the hands of the people who started this bullshit.

Obviously freedom of speech is important, I would just rather we didn't let maniacs set the agenda each and every time. They're not going to stop doing their part anytime soon - so why don't we?
Im with Clint. “Offence” is entirely subjective. I’m offended by all sorts of things I see day to day. You can’t legislate against causing offence because there’s no real way to predict it. Today it’s pictures of Mohammed, tomorrow some nut case decides it’s women showing their ankles or Harry Potter fans worshipping false idols or whatever.

We have to be robustly tolerant and expect people to react to offence sensibly.
 
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SBT

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If we stop depicting images of the prophet because of these attacks we are letting them set the agenda, and they'll then move on to its next item.

Yes, to carry on doing it generates 'heat' but unfortunately there is no easy, painless way out of this when there are such fanatics in the world.
I get that. It's a more principled argument than the one I'm making for sure. Personally I don't buy the slippery slope argument, but I think you're making it in good faith (unlike some others). My worry is that if we're going to die on a hill somewhere in the name of free speech, I would rather we do it where it actually matters, rather than where religious lunatics and workaday xenophobes want us to. We're watching people tear each other apart over the most inconsequential issue, while real issues of freedoms go largely ignored.
 
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shmmeee

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I get that. It's a more principled argument than the one I'm making for sure. Personally I don't buy the slippery slope argument, but I think you're making it in good faith (unlike some others). My worry is that if we're going to die on a hill somewhere in the name of free speech, I would rather we do it where it actually matters, rather than where religious lunatics and workaday xenophobes want us to. We're watching people tear each other apart over the most inconsequential issue, while real issues of freedoms go largely ignored.
Either all free speech matters, or none of it does. That’s the nature of the beast. Once you start making judgements on which speech is “matters” you’re already against free speech.

(Standard disclaimer that I’m a free speech absolutionist)
 

clint van damme

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I get that. It's a more principled argument than the one I'm making for sure. Personally I don't buy the slippery slope argument, but I think you're making it in good faith (unlike some others). My worry is that if we're going to die on a hill somewhere in the name of free speech, I would rather we do it where it actually matters, rather than where religious lunatics and workaday xenophobes want us to. We're watching people tear each other apart over the most inconsequential issue, while real issues of freedoms go largely ignored.
I thinks it's very naive to think if we stop printing cartoons or mocking Islam it all ends there. I'm certain it won't.

I honestly don't think this is an incosequntial issue.
 

Grendel

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Sep 19, 2011
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If we stop depicting images of the prophet because of these attacks we are letting them set the agenda, and they'll then move on to its next item.

Yes, to carry on doing it generates 'heat' but unfortunately there is no easy, painless way out of this when there are such fanatics in the world.
Exactly every media outlet should publish pictures every day and stand for freedom above some religious bigotry

Odd someone who said I’m afraid of Muslims seems very afraid of their ludicrous doctrine
 

NorthernWisdom

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Apr 23, 2013
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Here's the thing. Every atrocity, and every time senior Muslim leaders condemn their actions but, there's always a lack of desire to find that, or hear it, or even look for it.

I find that very odd. We don't expect Boris Johnson to be responsible for right wing extremists, we don't expect Keir Starmer to be spokesperson for radical left anarchists.

How about, we accept there are extremists who use structures, beliefs, organisations for their own destructive ends and, much like, say, just about every Christian isn't a child abusing paedophile, just about every Tory Party member isn't a neo-Nazi, that just about every Muslim is not a beheading nutter.

The quest for division is odd. How about the unity of condemning it regardless of race, colour, creed, faith?

And with that it's pointless carrying on the circles.
 

SBT

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Exactly every media outlet should publish pictures every day and stand for freedom above some religious bigotry

Odd someone who said I’m afraid of Muslims seems very afraid of their ludicrous doctrine
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that your suggestion of how to make this situation better involves inflaming it further. And somehow you still haven't twigged that this is also a terrorist's dream scenario. Played like a fiddle, each and every time.

There's a good discussion going on in here now you've gone, so please keep the keyboard race war bravado to whatever WhatsApp thread you have going with The Lurker.
 
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Grendel

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I'm sure it's just a coincidence that your suggestion of how to make this situation better involves inflaming it further. And somehow you still haven't twigged that this is also a terrorist's dream scenario. Played like a fiddle, each and every time.

There's a good discussion going on in here now you've gone, so please keep the keyboard race war bravado to whatever WhatsApp thread you have going with The Lurker.
How is this a race war exactly - please educate me on that - the discussion will carry on being “good” with me in it I’m sure - you do seem a very bitter little man - why don’t you put a Fatwa on me
 

Grendel

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Here's the thing. Every atrocity, and every time senior Muslim leaders condemn their actions but, there's always a lack of desire to find that, or hear it, or even look for it.

I find that very odd. We don't expect Boris Johnson to be responsible for right wing extremists, we don't expect Keir Starmer to be spokesperson for radical left anarchists.

How about, we accept there are extremists who use structures, beliefs, organisations for their own destructive ends and, much like, say, just about every Christian isn't a child abusing paedophile, just about every Tory Party member isn't a neo-Nazi, that just about every Muslim is not a beheading nutter.

The quest for division is odd. How about the unity of condemning it regardless of race, colour, creed, faith?

And with that it's pointless carrying on the circles.
To be fair I would in the interest of balance ask you to answer my question - do Muslims support France in its freedom of speech philosophy
 

Grendel

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All philosophy is bollox which is patently not the case so I think you’re wrong
For what it’s worth I found it disrespectful to you when people make Wizard in the Sky accusations. I support your belief in faith and would argue against those who ridicule it. My issue is with a religion that puts its ideology above the legislative process - the C of E has adapted and has engaged with people of different genders and sexuality - this faith does not and believes itself to be above the laws in the land. It’s that which I find not acceptable
 

SBT

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How is this a race war exactly - please educate me on that - the discussion will carry on being “good” with me in it I’m sure - you do seem a very bitter little man - why don’t you put a Fatwa on me
There's nothing particularly sophisticated or original about your brand of anti-Muslim drivel, so not much to explain I'm afraid.
 
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Grendel

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There's nothing particularly sophisticated or original about your brand of anti-Muslim drivel, so not much to explain I'm afraid.
How is it anti Muslim drivel - will Allah tell me off little man?
 
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Sky Blue Pete

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For what it’s worth I found it disrespectful to you when people make Wizard in the Sky accusations. I support your belief in faith and would argue against those who ridicule it. My issue is with a religion that puts its ideology above the legislative process - the C of E has adapted and has engaged with people of different genders and sexuality - this faith does not and believes itself to be above the laws in the land. It’s that which I find not acceptable
I think people are entitled especially those people who’s lives have been destroyed by people acting out their version of faith. Nuns etc. It’s hard to work out how to build society for all. My favourite pet peeve is those who are privileged doing something to be hated for. Anti abortion or anti teaching kids about gender and then claim they are being discriminated against.
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

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Has this beheading been condemned yet by faith leaders who's prophet it has been in the name of?
.
Good point. No one faith can try and end this radicalisation than the very faith in whose name these atrocities are performed. If they don't come out wholeheartedly and condemn this kind of atrocity then there isn't much hope .
 

Alan Dugdales Moustache

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As a matter of interest, or perhaps out of my own ignorance, does the Qur'an state anywhere that images of the prophet Mohammed should never be created ? If so I'm assuming it also states what punishment should follow.

If not then I'm assuming punishment for such a " crime" is open to interpretation however one sees fit.
 

SBT

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How is it anti Muslim drivel - will Allah tell me off little man?
You claim to be someone who would "argue against those who ridicule" someone's faith, but when it comes to Muslims, you openly advocate for their faith to be insulted on a daily basis in the national press

You claim that Muslim sensitivities over pictures of Mohammed mean that people getting murdered over it is somehow condoned

You routinely use the alt-right buzzword terminology of "medieval" ideology in reference to Islam

You play dumb in asking questions about whether French Muslims support the government's secularity policies, when the easily Googleable (but limited!) polling suggests they do (In fairness to you, you may actually just be being dumb here)

We can keep going if you like, but we both know the answer already. The tragic thing is it that at least other posters on here are able to openly admit their prejudices and fears about minorities. You're still too embarrassed to do that for some reason? I'd have more respect for you if you just admitted you don't trust them.
 

Grendel

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You claim to be someone who would "argue against those who ridicule" someone's faith, but when it comes to Muslims, you openly advocate for their faith to be insulted on a daily basis in the national press

You claim that Muslim sensitivities over pictures of Mohammed mean that people getting murdered over it is somehow condoned

You routinely use the alt-right buzzword terminology of "medieval" ideology in reference to Islam

You play dumb in asking questions about whether French Muslims support the government's secularity policies, when the easily Googleable (but limited!) polling suggests they do (In fairness to you, you may actually just be being dumb here)

We can keep going if you like, but we both know the answer already. The tragic thing is it that at least other posters on here are able to openly admit their prejudices and fears about minorities. You're still too embarrassed to do that for some reason? I'd have more respect for you if you just admitted you don't trust them.
The strange thing is no one seems to support you and you seem rather on your own - it seems to me your are a bit of an oddball - are you all alone it Bedsit land? Please put a fatwa on me
 

SBT

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The strange thing is no one seems to support you and you seem rather on your own - it seems to me your are a bit of an oddball - are you all alone it Bedsit land? Please put a fatwa on me
Mate, we're on a football message board. We're both shouting into the void here, and should both be embarrassed to some extent, but if you prefer to see it as a popularity contest then be my guest. The personal insults are cute, but if that's the route you'd rather go then I'm happy to just leave it here and let everyone else form their opinions of you. I'm not here to build some kind of online reputation.
 
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Brighton Sky Blue

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As a matter of interest, or perhaps out of my own ignorance, does the Qur'an state anywhere that images of the prophet Mohammed should never be created ? If so I'm assuming it also states what punishment should follow.

If not then I'm assuming punishment for such a " crime" is open to interpretation however one sees fit.
There's 2 parts that can perhaps be interpreted as an instruction to behead non-believers but even they aren't explicit.
 

Grendel

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Mate, we're on a football message board. We're both shouting into the void here, and should both be embarrassed to some extent, but if you prefer to see it as a popularity contest then be my guest. The personal insults are cute, but if that's the route you'd rather go then I'm happy to just leave it here and let everyone else form their opinions of you. I'm not here to build some kind of online reputation.
Also I seem to recall you had a curious obsession With the Cov Tel and defended some rubbish regarding the broadgate stabbing

For the record I’m not reading any of your posts as I’m sure they are beyond tedious but I’m sure a couple of cranks will befriend you
 

skybluetony176

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A teacher has had his head severed by some sadistic bastard and here you are trying to score yourself some points by pointing out what is pretty much common knowledge.

It sounds by what you're saying that we ( non Muslims) have to understand that pictures of Mohammed (or cartoons, Allah forbid) are so offensive that we might be subjected to getting similar treatment to this poor teacher. So we shouldn't be doing anything to offend.

Fair enough, but where in the Koran does it tell it's followers to sever heads or go into an Arena and blow people up?
It doesn't .
I was correcting Grendull. As you say it’s common knowledge, which probably explains why Grendull didn’t know it.

And yes, this time you can accuse me of point scoring.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

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The thing is, religious texts are mythic texts - people appropriate the meaning they want to from them, and that meaning changes... even as the words remain the same.
Being polite they were written in the desert thousands of years ago by some people who wanted the reader to believe someone ascended to heaven on a winged horse
 

RegTheDonk

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Glad to hear it. I ask because in the UK it took quite a few incidents like this before the faith leaders actually started pulling together and putting out statements distancing this kind of action in the name of Islam. Pleased to see the French are a bit quicker in coming forward.
 

shmmeee

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Glad to hear it. I ask because in the UK it took quite a few incidents like this before the faith leaders actually started pulling together and putting out statements distancing this kind of action in the name of Islam. Pleased to see the French are a bit quicker in coming forward.
Is that right? Here’s a statement from the MCB after the 2005 London bombings, as far as I know the first major Islamist attack in the U.K.: http://archive.mcb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Signed_Ulama_statement.pdf

Then the 2007 Glasgow airport attack, here they are in the aftermath saying condemnation isn’t enough and vowing to work more with the police:

Here they are condemning the attacker of Labour MP Stephen Timms in 2010:Woman jailed for life for attack on MP Stephen Timms


Here’s their statement on Lee Rigby, 2013: Muslim Council of Britain on the Woolwich Verdict - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

The 2017 Westminster attack: Westminster Attack: Call for Solidarity and Prayer - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

The MEN Arena bomb later that year: Manchester Attack: Muslim Council of Britain Statement - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

The 2017 London Bridge attack: London Bridge Attack: Muslim Council of Britain Response - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

The 2019 London Bridge attack: Muslim Council of Britain Responds to London Bridge Attack - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

The 2020 Streatham attack: Muslim Council of Britain Responds to Streatham Attack - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)


Did I miss any?
 

clint van damme

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To be fair I would in the interest of balance ask you to answer my question - do Muslims support France in its freedom of speech philosophy
To be honest if they don't support that philosophy that's fine with me.
Christian groups wanted Life of Brian banned.
It's when they don't get their way and resort to violence that I have an issue.
 

Sky Blue Pete

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Nov 24, 2012
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Is that right? Here’s a statement from the MCB after the 2005 London bombings, as far as I know the first major Islamist attack in the U.K.: http://archive.mcb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Signed_Ulama_statement.pdf

Then the 2007 Glasgow airport attack, here they are in the aftermath saying condemnation isn’t enough and vowing to work more with the police:

Here they are condemning the attacker of Labour MP Stephen Timms in 2010:Woman jailed for life for attack on MP Stephen Timms


Here’s their statement on Lee Rigby, 2013: Muslim Council of Britain on the Woolwich Verdict - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

The 2017 Westminster attack: Westminster Attack: Call for Solidarity and Prayer - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

The MEN Arena bomb later that year: Manchester Attack: Muslim Council of Britain Statement - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

The 2017 London Bridge attack: London Bridge Attack: Muslim Council of Britain Response - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

The 2019 London Bridge attack: Muslim Council of Britain Responds to London Bridge Attack - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)

The 2020 Streatham attack: Muslim Council of Britain Responds to Streatham Attack - Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)


Did I miss any?
Yeah but it wasn’t quick enough and I’m not sure they speak for all muslims in the country

I’m being facetious
 

Sky Blue Pete

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These should really be the least contentious of threads, shouldn't they. We all agree with the OP that it's disgusting that such a thing happens, and that's the end of it.
I think there’s a discussion if we are open to it to change our own actions from the wisdom of those around us. I often think on here that we share a football team but that means we don’t share so much of everything else and in these days of only reading or listening to what you agree that is gold dust! Only if we are willing to entertain the thought that we may have things to learn and may be wrong on certain things we hold dear. Maybe it’s a naive thing to believe I’m not always right and don’t know everything. I really don’t know anymore! So many people seem so sure of everything and that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Maybe it’s a lack of self worth or confidence in me. At my best I think it’s my most useful character trait and at my worst, which is more often, I think ffs stand for something, be brave and tell people how things should be. However when I do that I find people stop listening
 

shmmeee

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I think there’s a discussion if we are open to it to change our own actions from the wisdom of those around us. I often think on here that we share a football team but that means we don’t share so much of everything else and in these days of only reading or listening to what you agree that is gold dust! Only if we are willing to entertain the thought that we may have things to learn and may be wrong on certain things we hold dear. Maybe it’s a naive thing to believe I’m not always right and don’t know everything. I really don’t know anymore! So many people seem so sure of everything and that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Maybe it’s a lack of self worth or confidence in me. At my best I think it’s my most useful character trait and at my worst, which is more often, I think ffs stand for something, be brave and tell people how things should be. However when I do that I find people stop listening
The wisest man realises there is much he does not know Pete. You keep on as you are. Too much certainty in this world.
 
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