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Judicial Review thread (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter ccfcway
  • Start date Mar 20, 2014
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bigfatronssba

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #806
stupot07 said:
So you actually believe that the clubs turnover was in fact £24-25m not £10.8m in 2012/13? That goes against all of the figures OSB has put forward. Yes, talk about people believing what they want to believe....
Click to expand...

No I don't believe it. All I'm saying is you cant use the judges argument one minute to support your own opinion, and then completely disregard another comment made in court that the judge seemed to accept.

My argument is this: Where is the evidence to say that the rent was the made cause of the clubs unsustainability?
 

bigfatronssba

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #807
ladespiser said:
there is a cieling of 200,000 euros. after which you need european commision permision, there is no way the council have complied

the problem for ccc is the fact they offered so much and kept the matter a secret from SISU, its anti competitive because SISU were making a play for the ownership of the ricoh, the non payment of rent was not about the rent it was a targeted action to bring down the price of ACL. CCC acted to take the price of ACL back up ... hence all the quotes of 6 million and 12 million etc... CCC faced losing a large amount of money if SISU aquired ACL. Hence the action it took - so it also hiked up its own company worth but by means of public cash not private cash .. . .. in other words state aid.

Local authorities can run business, but they can not use public moneys to do so they are supposed to use banks and act as a tradinig company .

local authority trading companies: here :: https://www.gov.uk/state-aid
Click to expand...

So your saying sisu deliberately set out to distress ACL?
 
L

ladespiser

New Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #808
bigfatronssba said:
So your saying sisu deliberately set out to distress ACL?
Click to expand...

yes of course, hostile takeover tactics - should be expected by a hedge fund specializing in takeovers??
 

bigfatronssba

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #809
ladespiser said:
yes of course, hostile takeover tactics - should be expected by a hedge fund specializing in takeovers??
Click to expand...

Interesting line of defence.

Sounds like your suggesting ccfc Ltd and Sisu were conspiring to damage the business interests of acl.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #810
ladespiser said:
yes of course, hostile takeover tactics - should be expected by a hedge fund specializing in takeovers??
Click to expand...

Specialising in takeovers?

Glad our club isn't run by someone who is shit at it.
 
D

dongonzalos

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #811
Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
The problem with that, surely, would be that for SISU to establish themselves as 'competitor' in that context, they'd need to admit the distressing tactic. Which in public protestations they've always denied. 'Average League One rents', 'it's all about revenues, stupid', etc.

Unless they 'fess up, I don't see them as 'competitor' and there falling at the first hurdle?!?
Click to expand...

Also again if this correct SISU's action created the situation and leads to no remedies. Making the JR a pointless exercise. Wish they would make a public offer for ACL or Long Term Rent
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #812
bigfatronssba said:
No I don't believe it. All I'm saying is you cant use the judges argument one minute to support your own opinion, and then completely disregard another comment made in court that the judge seemed to accept.

My argument is this: Where is the evidence to say that the rent was the made cause of the clubs unsustainability?
Click to expand...

Never said it was the main cause, but it was a contributing factor along with wage bill. Are you suggested that the £1.3m plus £250k+ matchday costs was sustainable and had no bearing on the year on year losses?

When you trying to bring down costs and efficiency savings you do it from all budgets, you cannot deny that the club have been trying to do this with the wage bill.

And I can do what I want. How do we know the judge seemed to accept it?, because simon didn't tweet it that the judge commented on it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
 
Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #813
ladespiser said:
yes of course, hostile takeover tactics - should be expected by a hedge fund specializing in takeovers??
Click to expand...

Exactly. That's why CCC arranged a loan at better conditions than YB. Well done CCC. Is a conspiracy to distress ACL between SISU, CCFC, and maybe unnamed cayman Isle investors, legal? According to M.L. it is not. Don't know whether he's right, but it is pretty nasty.
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #814
stupot07 said:
Never said it was the main cause, but it was a contributing factor along with wage bill. Are you suggested that the £1.3m plus £250k+ matchday costs was sustainable and had no bearing on the year on year losses?

When you trying to bring down costs and efficiency savings you do it from all budgets, you cannot deny that the club have been trying to do this with the wage bill.

And I can do what I want. How do we know the judge seemed to accept it?, because simon didn't tweet it that the judge commented on it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
Click to expand...

At least CCFC got something for that money to play in a 32,000 seater stadium for a season.
Currently CCFC are paying 1.8million a year to Arvo in interest alone, how sustainable is that ?
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #815
When we played at the Ricoh we were debt free !!!
Now at Sixfields we are 70million in debt !
Any Sisu supporters stopping to think how that happened ??????
 
T

The Gentleman

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #816
sky blue john said:
At least CCFC got something for that money to play in a 32,000 seater stadium for a season.
Currently CCFC are paying 1.8million a year to Arvo in interest alone, how sustainable is that ?
Click to expand...

Don't worry about that John, despite it being way more than the original rent, certain posters never seem to acknowledge it.
 

spider_ricoh

New Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #817
Sisu are both incompetent and viscous, I hope they get what's coming to them - every door should get slammed in their face, they should be told "no" at every turn - unfortunately the likes of the FL, the administator and the FA have accommodated them so far, but hopefully they won't be able to worm their way through some legal loophole to get any benefit.

The sooner they realise it's over, the sooner they walk away and we get our club back.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #818
sky blue john said:
When we played at the Ricoh we were debt free !!!
Now at Sixfields we are 70million in debt !
Any Sisu supporters stopping to think how that happened ??????
Click to expand...

Why are you acting like a 5 year old?
 

covcity4life

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #819
Danceswithhorses said:
you are obviously the King of Comedy.
Click to expand...

wow thank you. thats really nice of you to say. cheers buddy
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #820
sky blue john said:
At least CCFC got something for that money to play in a 32,000 seater stadium for a season.
Currently CCFC are paying 1.8million a year to Arvo in interest alone, how sustainable is that ?
Click to expand...

We're Coventry paying these management charges when Paul fletcher was in charge?
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #821
Grendel said:
We're Coventry paying these management charges when Paul fletcher was in charge?
Click to expand...

To be honest I don't know and don't care !!
What causes me concern is CCFC current situation !!!
Just to clarify the yearly 1.8million CCFC is crippled with is just interest, management charges are likely to be extra on top of this figure. To help you maybe a bit like rent and then extra for match day costs !!!
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #822
sky blue john said:
To be honest I don't know and don't care !!
What causes me concern is CCFC current situation !!!
Just to clarify the yearly 1.8million CCFC is crippled with is just interest, management charges are likely to be extra on top of this figure. To help you maybe a bit like rent and then extra for match day costs !!!
Click to expand...

You don't know? So are you saying Elliot and co may have been - really?

I think not.

We're the club in debt without these charges?
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #823
sky blue john said:
When we played at the Ricoh we were debt free !!!
Now at Sixfields we are 70million in debt !
Any Sisu supporters stopping to think how that happened ??????
Click to expand...

Sisu are dumping there company debt into Coventry City.
All these court battles are personnel because they have been out manoeuvred by CCC.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #824
sky blue john said:
At least CCFC got something for that money to play in a 32,000 seater stadium for a season.
Currently CCFC are paying 1.8million a year to Arvo in interest alone, how sustainable is that ?
Click to expand...

It's not sustainable. But again that doesn't make the £1.3m rent ok or sustainable.

I don't get your problem. Saying the rent was too high and unsustainable is never pro sisu nor anti sisu.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
 
Last edited: Jun 11, 2014

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #825
Grendel said:
Why are you acting like a 5 year old?
Click to expand...

Are you jealous that he is acting older than you are
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #826
Grendel said:
You don't know? So are you saying Elliot and co may have been - really?

I think not.

We're the club in debt without these charges?
Click to expand...

lol !!
It has no bearing on the current sutuation !!
Your buddies at Sisu said CCFC was debt free !!!
Oops !! Now we are 70million in debt and paying 1.8million in interest a year !!
You obviously don't know who runs and calls the shots at CCFC !!
 

Hobo

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #827
Grendel said:
Why are you acting like a 5 year old?
Click to expand...

Probably because he is trying to communicate with a 5 year old.
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #828
stupot07 said:
It's not sustainable. But again that doesn't make the £1.3m rent ok or sustainable.

I don't get your problem. Saying the rent was too high and unsustainable is never pro sisu nor anti sisu.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
Click to expand...

Lol !!
Who said that the rent was ?
Anyway was 1.3 million the last offer on the table ?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #829
Hobo said:
Probably because he is trying to communicate with a 5 year old.
Click to expand...

Thats interesting - he wasn't talking to me. Who are you referring to?
 
T

The Gentleman

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #830
stupot07 said:
It's not sustainable. But again that doesn't make the £1.3m rent ok or sustainable.

I don't get your problem. Saying the rent was too high and unsustainable is never pro sisu nor anti sisu.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
Click to expand...

But i find it a bit odd that some people constantly talk and bring up the rent when the interest payments are far greater and are still in place.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #831
Have any interest / management charges actually been paid? I remember OSB and somebody else saying something about them not actually being paid transaction wise but probably just build up?
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #832
The Gentleman said:
But i find it a bit odd that some people constantly talk and bring up the rent when the interest payments are far greater and are still in place.
Click to expand...

I can't wait to hear how the Sisu social club try to justify Sisu's rental charges at the new stadium !!
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #833
stupot07 said:
It's not sustainable. But again that doesn't make the £1.3m rent ok or sustainable.

I don't get your problem. Saying the rent was too high and unsustainable is never pro sisu nor anti sisu.
Click to expand...

I think the point the poster might be making is that you mention the rent as being unsustainable very often. Which I agree with. But you don't afford the same level of condemnation for interest charges (even though their value, with management charges atop are some 50% higher than the draconian rent agreement) - from which we derive no tangible benefit. This being from the same organisation who's front man described us as being 'debt free' when fans handed their shares over for nothing in 2007. Not to mention significant debts written off by former officers of the club too
 
T

The Gentleman

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #834
Nick said:
Have any interest / management charges actually been paid? I remember OSB and somebody else saying something about them not actually being paid transaction wise but probably just build up?
Click to expand...

So are you implying the debt doesn't have to be repaid? First thing tomorrow I'm on the phone to Joy asking for the sub, I could do with a new car
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #835
sky blue john said:
I can't wait to hear how the Sisu social club try to justify Sisu's rental charges at the new stadium !!
Click to expand...

The sisu social club. Christ.
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #836
Nick said:
Have any interest / management charges actually been paid? I remember OSB and somebody else saying something about them not actually being paid transaction wise but probably just build up?
Click to expand...

That's immaterial. They increase the level of indebtedness. Which was one of the mechanisms used to protect SISU's interest in administration, if you remember. So, maybe not a cash-transfer value, but certainly a protection of interests value.

(Edited to add as I've just pondered: it would also boost the balance sheet of whichever SISU-group company was invoicing interest/management charges too - probably making that a more attractive financial proposition)
 
Last edited: Jun 11, 2014

Nick

Administrator
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #837
The Gentleman said:
So are you implying the debt doesn't have to be repaid? First thing tomorrow I'm on the phone to Joy asking for the sub, I could do with a new car
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that, I was just asking if any money has physically been transferred or if it was just sat there mounting up.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #838
Nick said:
Have any interest / management charges actually been paid? I remember OSB and somebody else saying something about them not actually being paid transaction wise but probably just build up?
Click to expand...

If the investors put more money in every year than 1,8m, and then get 1,8m back, they are effectively paying themselves 1,8m out of their investment. That seems to be a Ponzi scheme. The debts are huge and I doubt whether the Investors will ever get their money back as CCFC is not worth enough to cover the debts. Is this legal?
 

Moff

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #839
The Gentleman said:
But i find it a bit odd that some people constantly talk and bring up the rent when the interest payments are far greater and are still in place.
Click to expand...

The interest payments are clearly very very unsustainable and it is scandalous, more so than the rent, although that was clearly not sustainable as well.

I know we can only look at the here and now, and I desperately long to see the back of SISU and all it stands for, but when I look at the mess we are in, I see a long list of proprietors who have ripped us off over a long period of time, taking high interest from 'loans' to the club, taking percentages from profits on player sales, and so forth. Its got to stop.

I just hope for the day when someone can come in as the clubs owner and look at what business it is, a football club, and run it like one, not some place to offset losses, taxes, and to bleed the club dry.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 11, 2014
  • #840
sky blue john said:
Lol !!
Who said that the rent was ?
Anyway was 1.3 million the last offer on the table ?
Click to expand...

This thread relates to the JR and the rent that was withheld at the time. £1.3m.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
 
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