Israel - Palestinian Conflict (16 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

nope that is still not an apology and no you did not quote me directly as you took one thing I said and then conflated it with something else.

If you are too much of a pussy to admit you were wrong then it's only you that loses

Where’s the lie? You have the quotes. Put up or shut up.

I asked when did it become genocide and my inkling was it was Day 1. The invitation is still open if your want to answer it.

If I’ve misinterpreted something, I’m more than happy to talk that through a come to an understanding. This fake outrage routine will get you nowhere with me.

 

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[fernandopartridge]

On another note the government has announced it has ended its intelligence gathering flights from the UK over Gaza on behalf of the Israeli military.

You may recall discussion on the intelligence gathering flights. They are the ones that Palestine Action claimed were departing from the UK which the government flat out denied so slightly odd for them to now confirm they were taking place.

In other Palestine Action related news the defence secretary, John Healey, when pushed in parliament for an itemised breakdown of the claim that PA caused millions in damage, has been forced to admit the MoD have no clue what the costs are as they have not yet been assessed.

The home office has lost its appeal to stop a judicial review into the proscription of Palestine Action

Legal challenge to Palestine Action ban can go ahead, court rules

Judges reject Home Office attempt to block judicial review of group’s proscription under Terrorism Act

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sick Boy]

Then explain to us, (just for starters) why Israel has managed to carry out such genocide with zero condemnation from the west?
How have they not run out of weapons?
How come their iron dome defence system never runs out of missiles?
Why is there an American carrier fleet in the vicinity at all times preventing Israels enemies from attacking?
How come Israel isnt under the devastating embargo's and financial penalties that Russia finds itself under?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Disagreeing with the UN’s definition is “a take”.

Looking back historically, when we bombed Dresden in WW2, was that genocide? It was a vindictive attack on civilian area. Or, take the nuclear bombings in Japan where non-military

The reason I use WW2 is because it was a righteous war imo. But, let’s be clear, we did a lot of evil to win that war. The problem with the pretty vague UN definition of genocide used here is that you can pick out any war and label it a genocide. Nearly every war will have significantly more civilian deaths than military deaths.

For what it’s worth, I think Russia has committed war crimes as has Israel in Gaza and no doubt most combatants in most wars will have examples of war crimes accidental or deliberate.

War is a nasty and brutal business. There’s no such thing as a clear war.

The definition has been provided for you earlier in this thread, look at it instead of this ridiculous whataboutery.

 

[LarryGrayson]

Another Episode of Cultural Siege in The Time of Genocide

Palestine Square

www.palestine-studies.org

 

[chiefdave]

Looking back historically, when we bombed Dresden in WW2, was that genocide?

It was the actions undertaken in WW2 that led to the Genocide Convention and genocide being something that was recognised under international law

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The definition has been provided for you earlier in this thread, look at it instead of this ridiculous whataboutery.

It’s not whataboutery when the definition could be used to describe most wars in the 20th and 21st centuries. Was it genocidal action when we blitzed Dresden (no military targets) with fire bombs that flattened the place completely with 25k people dead in one night? If you apply the same logic, you’d have to conclude yes.

Go through the definition and tell me why it applies to Israel and not Russia. BSB touched on something when saying because Russia is on the UNSC, that designation of genocide won’t be given because of that.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Then explain to us, (just for starters) why Israel has managed to carry out such genocide with zero condemnation from the west?
How have they not run out of weapons?
How come their iron dome defence system never runs out of missiles?
Why is there an American carrier fleet in the vicinity at all times preventing Israels enemies from attacking?
How come Israel isnt under the devastating embargo's and financial penalties that Russia finds itself under?

Just to be clear to all those focusing on Muslims, this guy is more anti Semitic than anyone you’ll find at a mosque

 

[chiefdave]

The home office has lost its appeal to stop a judicial review into the proscription of Palestine Action

Legal challenge to Palestine Action ban can go ahead, court rules

Judges reject Home Office attempt to block judicial review of group’s proscription under Terrorism Act

www.theguardian.com

I see we've also reached the point where the police are now having to issue apologies and pay compensation for false arrest to some of those they have arrested under the proscription.

Following on from the leak that MI6 made it clear to the government that PA should not be proscribed it has been revealed Scotland's Counter-Extremism Board found them nowhere near to being a terror group and Police Scotland also found the groups activity to be well below the terror threshold.

This has led on to the revelation that not only did Cooper not speak with a single Palestinian or human rights group, while finding time to consult with the Israeli embassy, multiple Jewish groups and arms company, nobody at all from any Scottish body was consulted which may well result in the proscription being overruled in Scotland.

 

[Sick Boy]

Just to be clear to all those focusing on Muslims, this guy is more anti Semitic than anyone you’ll find at a mosque

Weirdly no one said anything about his weird rant before...

 

[Ccfcisparks]

Weirdly no one said anything about his weird rant before...

Its crazy. I dont get it. One of the worst things ive read on here.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I see we've also reached the point where the police are now having to issue apologies and pay compensation for false arrest to some of those they have arrested under the proscription.

Following on from the leak that MI6 made it clear to the government that PA should not be proscribed it has been revealed Scotland's Counter-Extremism Board found them nowhere near to being a terror group and Police Scotland also found the groups activity to be well below the terror threshold.

This has led on to the revelation that not only did Cooper not speak with a single Palestinian or human rights group, while finding time to consult with the Israeli embassy, multiple Jewish groups and arms company, nobody at all from any Scottish body was consulted which may well result in the proscription being overruled in Scotland.

All that money from Trevor Chinn has significant influence

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It was the actions undertaken in WW2 that led to the Genocide Convention and genocide being something that was recognised under international law

Exactly. With that in mind, would you consider Russia’s actions in Ukraine genocidal?

Cards on the table: I think Russia or Israel is committing war crimes, but not genocide. I do believe Hamas’ ideology is genocidal and October 7th 2023 a manifestation of that.

If you and others consider Russia and Israel as committing genocide, like @Brighton Sky Blue. I respectfully disagree but can understand that logic and its consistency.

However, I’m deeply sceptical of the motivations of someone who can look both actors and conclude one is genocidal and one isn’t. If you consider Israel guilty of genocidal intent but not Hamas or Russia… It looks pretty bad on that person imo.

 

[David O'Day]

It’s not whataboutery when the definition could be used to describe most wars in the 20th and 21st centuries. Was it genocidal action when we blitzed Dresden (no military targets) with fire bombs that flattened the place completely with 25k people dead in one night? If you apply the same logic, you’d have to conclude yes.

Go through the definition and tell me why it applies to Israel and not Russia. BSB touched on something when saying because Russia is on the UNSC, that designation of genocide won’t be given because of that.

not justifying it before you start misquoting me but the targets in Dresden were mostly the industrial factories and the large railway marshalling yards

just to keep things factual

 

[Grendel]

What we did to Dresden however was no accident and was inexcusable. Bomber Harris saw German civilians the same way Israel views Palestinian ones.

someone disagrees with DOD here

 

[David O'Day]

someone disagrees with DOD here

Yes, apart from I said this at the start "not justifying it".

But if I have to add anything to your spreadsheet let it be this "The Area Bombing Campaign of "Bomber" Harris was morally wrong".

Also you do know people with similar views can also not agree on everything, it is what makes people human and not robots.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It’s not whataboutery when the definition could be used to describe most wars in the 20th and 21st centuries. Was it genocidal action when we blitzed Dresden (no military targets) with fire bombs that flattened the place completely with 25k people dead in one night? If you apply the same logic, you’d have to conclude yes.

Go through the definition and tell me why it applies to Israel and not Russia. BSB touched on something when saying because Russia is on the UNSC, that designation of genocide won’t be given because of that.

Dresden as abhorrent as it might have been was at least part of a real war with two genuine combatants. Isreal's "war" with the civilians in Gaza has seen a 30:1 ratio of deaths.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

not justifying it before you start misquoting me but the targets in Dresden were the industrial factories and the large railway marshalling yards

just to keep things factual

Just to be clear, non-military targets?

In the context of WW2, the objective was to win the war and therefore, the means ends justify the means. In war, things aren’t black and white - there’s a lot of morally grey areas.

The nuking of Japan is a great such example. The moral justification at the time was that to invade would have cost 1 million’s lives on both ends. Did that justify the destruction caused by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki? It’s a moral conundrum for sure which isn’t straightforward.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Dresden as abhorrent as it might have been was at least part of a real war with two genuine combatants. Isreal's "war" with the civilians in Gaza has seen a 30:1 ratio of deaths.

Interesting comment to make. Let’s explore that: Are Hamas not a real combatant?

 

[fatso]

Just to be clear to all those focusing on Muslims, this guy is more anti Semitic than anyone you’ll find at a mosque

Can you give me 1 example where ive been antisemitic? Just 1 will do, 1 example where anything ive said about Israel or the Jewish people has been factually inaccurate?

No you cant. Because your fundamentally incapable of reading anything without putting your own warped bias on it.

 

[David O'Day]

Just to be clear, non-military targets?

In the context of WW2, the objective was to win the war and therefore, the means ends justify the means. In war, things aren’t black and white - there’s a lot of morally grey areas.

The nuking of Japan is a great such example. The moral justification at the time was that to invade would have cost 1 million’s lives on both ends. Did that justify the destruction caused by nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki? It’s a moral conundrum for sure which isn’t straightforward.

So you say that rail infrastructure and factories producing war equipment are not military targets? It was as justified as any other raid on a German city in that it was an attempt to destroy war production. The issue is that BC's method of "Area Bombing" that levelled the whole city to destroy war infrastructure that is indefensible.

 

[fatso]

As expected, fuck all back from you.

 

[David O'Day]

Interesting comment to make. Let’s explore that: Are Hamas not a real combatant?

They are a terrorist organisation, if the British levelled the Falls with bombs killing lots of Civilians would you think that was ok as the IRA lived and were based amongst them?

No because states are meant to be better than terrorists. Can you justify stopping food and medicine from being allowed it which killed innocent men, women and children?

 

[Sick Boy]

Can you give me 1 example where ive been antisemitic? Just 1 will do, 1 example where anything ive said about Israel or the Jewish people has been factually inaccurate?

No you cant. Because your fundamentally incapable of reading anything without putting your own warped bias on it.

HAHAHAHA fucking hell

 

[Sick Boy]

@fatso if Jews control the world, why did the holocaust happen?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

They are a terrorist organisation, if the British levelled the Falls with bombs killing lots of Civilians would you think that was ok as the IRA lived and were based amongst them?

No because states are meant to be better than terrorists. Can you justify stopping food and medicine from being allowed it which killed innocent men, women and children?

Hamas is the elected authority in Gaza and responsible for governing the region.

So you say that rail infrastructure and factories producing war equipment are not military targets? It was as justified as any other raid on a German city in that it was an attempt to destroy war production. The issue is that BC's method of "Area Bombing" that levelled the whole city to destroy war infrastructure that is indefensible.

That’s a v tenuous justification. It was little to no strategic importance in terms of Germany industry which is heavily concentrated in the Ruhr.

We bombed that city because its cultural significance and as part of a wider strategic plan to overwhelm the Nazi authorities and crush their morale through terror. Looking Dresden in isolation, it’s grim and not the most honourable way to conduct war. War crime, by today’s standards? Probably. In my view, when you consider WW2, it was overall justified. War is inherently an evil undertaking.

Dresden had no military or industrial significance to the Nazi war machine.

Contrasting your view on this v Israel-Gaza makes for an interesting reading. @Brighton Sky Blue has shown the most consistency on these moral conundrum which I somewhat respect.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

They are a terrorist organisation, if the British levelled the Falls with bombs killing lots of Civilians would you think that was ok as the IRA lived and were based amongst them?

No because states are meant to be better than terrorists. Can you justify stopping food and medicine from being allowed it which killed innocent men, women and children?

Terrible example to use because last time I checked, Northern Ireland is a part of the UK.

Gaza and the West Bank are not part of Israel. What Hamas and the PLO does holds weight.

 

[David O'Day]

Hamas is the elected authority in Gaza and responsible for governing the region.

That’s a v tenuous justification. It was little to no strategic importance in terms of Germany industry which is heavily concentrated in the Ruhr.

We bombed that city because its cultural significance and as part of a wider strategic plan to overwhelm the Nazi authorities and crush their morale through terror. Looking Dresden in isolation, it’s grim and not the most honourable way to conduct war. War crime, by today’s standards? Probably. In my view, when you consider WW2, it was overall justified. War is inherently an evil undertaking.

Dresden had no military or industrial significance to the Nazi war machine.

Contrasting your view on this v Israel-Gaza makes for an interesting reading. @Brighton Sky Blue has shown the most consistency on these moral conundrum which I somewhat respect.

Dresden had a very large marshalling yard and according the Nazis own war office 127 factories producing goods for the war effort. It was the 7th largest city and the largest at the time to have a largely unbombed industrial base.

It is not in anyway tenuous and is yet more evidence of how you distort the truth,

 

[David O'Day]

Terrible example to use because last time I checked, Northern Ireland is a part of the UK.

Gaza and the West Bank are not part of Israel. What Hamas and the PLO does holds weight.

No, it's a fine example because it proves you to be wrong.

 

[David O'Day]

Hamas is the elected authority in Gaza and responsible for governing the region.

That’s a v tenuous justification. It was little to no strategic importance in terms of Germany industry which is heavily concentrated in the Ruhr.

We bombed that city because its cultural significance and as part of a wider strategic plan to overwhelm the Nazi authorities and crush their morale through terror. Looking Dresden in isolation, it’s grim and not the most honourable way to conduct war. War crime, by today’s standards? Probably. In my view, when you consider WW2, it was overall justified. War is inherently an evil undertaking.

Dresden had no military or industrial significance to the Nazi war machine.

Contrasting your view on this v Israel-Gaza makes for an interesting reading. @Brighton Sky Blue has shown the most consistency on these moral conundrum which I somewhat respect.

Dresden at the time produced the following " fuses and bombsights (at Zeiss Ikon A.G.),[160] aircraft components, anti-aircraft guns, field guns, and small arms, poison gas, gears and differentials, electrical and X-ray apparatus, electric gauges, gas masks, Junkers aircraft engines, and Messerschmitt fighter cockpit parts". You can make an argument for the factories that produced these to be war targets.

What was the crime was the area bombing where BC destroyed everything to get at these and didn't give a rats about the civilians it killed, much like Israel didn't care about the civilians it killed.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

someone disagrees with DOD here

Bomber Harris was a war criminal.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Dresden had a very large marshalling yard and according the Nazis own war office 127 factories producing goods for the war effort. It was the 7th largest city and the largest at the time to have a largely unbombed industrial base.

It is not in anyway tenuous and is yet more evidence of how you distort the truth,

Dresden at the time produced the following " fuses and bombsights (at Zeiss Ikon A.G.),[160] aircraft components, anti-aircraft guns, field guns, and small arms, poison gas, gears and differentials, electrical and X-ray apparatus, electric gauges, gas masks, Junkers aircraft engines, and Messerschmitt fighter cockpit parts". You can make an argument for the factories that produced these to be war targets.

What was the crime was the area bombing where BC destroyed everything to get at these and didn't give a rats about the civilians it killed, much like Israel didn't care about the civilians it killed.

Understood. Can I just clarify this point: is a city that is manufacturing and transportation hub a legitimate military targets? Simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[David O'Day]

Bomber Harris was a war criminal.

I agree

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Can you give me 1 example where ive been antisemitic? Just 1 will do, 1 example where anything ive said about Israel or the Jewish people has been factually inaccurate?

No you cant. Because your fundamentally incapable of reading anything without putting your own warped bias on it.

1. You said that Jews run the world.

 

[chiefdave]

Its now turned out the home office was briefed last week and were informed its purely down to a lack of sufficient police resources to police the match and ensure the safety of both sets of supporters and local residents.