Israel - Palestinian Conflict (32 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I am applying the same definition and we have clearly explained to you the difference in the actions as compared the the internationally agreed definition.

When does war become genocide? Why are you throwing pretty shite straw men into this now?

You compared the actions of Hamas on the 7th of October 2023 with the actions of Israel in all the days that have passed. We are talking about your set of date parameters here.

Are you trying to change the parameters now?

It’s not a straw man, you throw around the word genocide freely. The simple question is that at what point did it move from war to genocide? You have given the game away earlier in the discussion when you said ‘after the genocide begun’ in response to polling published (not condicted) in December 2023.

I’ll use a clear historical example. WW2 became a war of genocide around 1940-41 as the ghettos and death camps were being set up. That’s when the brutality of war became genocidal.

 

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[David O'Day]

This is exactly the logic that has been applied to other games. When I lived near Fratton Park they made Southampton supporters who lived in Pompey travel back to Southampton to then travel in a 'bubble' to the game. Without doing that there was no way for them to obtain tickets.

It may seem crazy but it is a tactic that is already in use to prevent trouble.

I have explained this using the South Wales Derby example and taken onboard his UK based fan example and showed him how it can be easily done.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

There is no element of nuance to any of their comments. They can't grasp the concept that you can have empathy for a group of people who have been marginalised, whilst also not supporting the terrorist actions of a group on that "side"

It just comes back to seeing Muslims as legitimate targets who we shouldn't have sympathy for. Israel can kill as many as it wants because 'it's hard to fight Hamas in a small area'. Who was it who forced millions of people into living in a thin strip of land in the first place?

 

[David O'Day]

It’s not a straw man, you throw around the word genocide freely. The simple question is that at what point did it move from war to genocide? You have given the game away earlier in the discussion when you said ‘after the genocide begun’ in response to polling published (not condicted) in December 2023.

I’ll use a clear historical example. WW2 became a war of genocide around 1940-41 as the ghettos and death camps were being set up. That’s when the brutality of war became genocidal.

No, we were comparing your example of the actions of Hamas on 1 day vs the actions of Israel for the whole conflict.

We are not going to let you change the parameters because you are wrong.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s not a straw man, you throw around the word genocide freely. The simple question is that at what point did it move from war to genocide? You have given the game away earlier in the discussion when you said ‘after the genocide begun’ in response to polling published (not condicted) in December 2023.

I’ll use a clear historical example. WW2 became a war of genocide around 1940-41 as the ghettos and death camps were being set up. That’s when the brutality of war became genocidal.

The UN report on this explains how and when they came to that determination. Maybe give it a read and see if you still think they're wrong?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Civilians have been invited to queue up to receive aid and then used as shooting practice. Israeli ministers have openly said that they want to bomb the aid supplies and deny any food or medical relief going in. There have been debates in the Knesset about whether or not IDF soldiers should be allowed to rape prisoners; with outrage expressed at the idea that it might not be allowed.

Why oh why is it so hard for you to call it what it is?

This is genocidal intent but not Hamas’ actions?

October 7th 2023, the Kibbutz communities were targeted and the supernova dance festival. Women were raped and civilians abducted and Hamas officials justified and initiated these actions.

By your own words, either both Hamas and the IDF are genocidal or vile terrorists. Pick one and apply it to both sides. With respect, you lack moral clarity.

I know if an incident like that was perpetrated on UK soil, I’d want the UK government to go to war to get hostages back. Like the Taliban in Afghanistan, it’s uniquely difficult when your enemy embeds itself in civilian areas.

 

[David O'Day]

This is genocidal intent but not Hamas’ actions?

October 7th 2023, the Kibbutz communities were targeted and the supernova dance festival. Women were raped and civilians abducted and Hamas officials justified and initiated these actions.

By your own words, either both Hamas and the IDF are genocidal or vile terrorists. Pick one and apply it to both sides. With respect, you lack moral clarity.

I know if an incident like that was perpetrated on UK soil, I’d want the UK government to go to war to get hostages back. Like the Taliban in Afghanistan, it’s uniquely difficult when your enemy embeds itself in civilian areas.

Read the UN definition, you are an apologist for war crimes at this point.

 

[Otis]

It's the definition mate, that is what matters and if an act falls under that. Genocide is something there is a set international definition of.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Very noteworthy, that the UN did not label the endless bombing and attacks by Israel , a genocide, until it actually became a genocide.

The relentless day after day, bombardment and restriction of aid etc. it kept going on and on, endlessly. No let up and very, very little mercy.

The aim of Israeli forces seemed to be to drive all Palenstians out of Gaza.

The Hamas attack, horrendous as it was, was a one day attack where they tried to kill as many as they could and to take hostages on that day. That was a statement attack. Not defending it at all.

That incident wasn't trying to destroy all of Israel.

It's as clear as day as to why the UN called the one a genocide.

 

[Sick Boy]

In small areas of land, military infrastructure is inevitably going to be in heavily populated areas.

 

[David O'Day]

Very noteworthy, that the UN did not label the endless bombing and attacks by Israel , a genocide, until it actually became a genocide.

The relentless day after day, bombardment and restriction of aid etc. it kept going on and on, endlessly. No let up and very, very little mercy.

The aim of Israeli forces seemed to be to drive all Palenstians out of Gaza.

The Hamas attack, horrendous as it was, was a one day attack where they tried to kill as many as they could and to take hostages on that day. That was a statement attack. Not defending it at all.

That incident wasn't trying to destroy all of Israel.

It's as clear as day as to why the UN called the one a genocide.

Yep, the Genocide by Israel was not labelled a Genocide and nor was it a Genocide at the start.

A point @Mucca Mad Boys doesn't really care about though.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No, we were comparing your example of the actions of Hamas on 1 day vs the actions of Israel for the whole conflict.

We are not going to let you change the parameters because you are wrong.

You said ‘when the genocide begun’. In your mind, when did Israel’s actions become genocide? Clearly it was between October and December 2023 because the you rationalised the support of Palestinians of Hamas’ ‘vile terrorist actions’ (your words) in October because ‘genocide had begun’.

If you want to amend earlier comments, by all means. Here’s a reminder of the polling and it was published in Dec 2023 and conducted shortly after the attacks.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

My inkling is that you viewed the conflict as genocide from Day 1 of the Israeli invasion.

 

[David O'Day]

In small areas of land, military infrastructure is inevitable in heavily populated areas.

I mean stopping all aid and food entering the Gaza Strip and letting civilians starve can not be call legitimate acts of war.

 

[Otis]

You said ‘when the genocide begun’. In your mind, when did Israel’s actions become genocide? Clearly it was between October and December 2023 because the you rationalised the support of Palestinians of Hamas’ ‘vile terrorist actions’ (your words) in October because ‘genocide had begun’.

If you want to amend earlier comments, by all means. Here’s a reminder of the polling and it was published in Dec 2023 and conducted shortly after the attacks.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

My inkling is that you viewed the conflict as genocide from Day 1 of the Israeli invasion.

No, I don't believe he does.

Not trying to stick up for him, but DOD isn't saying that.

I think he's saying that the intention was to wipe Gaza out in retaliation

But that took time and endless bombing and battles etc and of course restriction upon aid and supplies

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Very noteworthy, that the UN did not label the endless bombing and attacks by Israel , a genocide, until it actually became a genocide.

The relentless day after day, bombardment and restriction of aid etc. it kept going on and on, endlessly. No let up and very, very little mercy.

The aim of Israeli forces seemed to be to drive all Palenstians out of Gaza.

The Hamas attack, horrendous as it was, was a one day attack where they tried to kill as many as they could and to take hostages on that day. That was a statement attack. Not defending it at all.

That incident wasn't trying to destroy all of Israel.

It's as clear as day as to why the UN called the one a genocide.

The UN report also comments on efforts to restrict childbirth.

This is genocidal intent but not Hamas’ actions?

October 7th 2023, the Kibbutz communities were targeted and the supernova dance festival. Women were raped and civilians abducted and Hamas officials justified and initiated these actions.

By your own words, either both Hamas and the IDF are genocidal or vile terrorists. Pick one and apply it to both sides. With respect, you lack moral clarity.

I know if an incident like that was perpetrated on UK soil, I’d want the UK government to go to war to get hostages back. Like the Taliban in Afghanistan, it’s uniquely difficult when your enemy embeds itself in civilian areas.

The Afghanistan conflict is a good example. We didn’t do anything like what Israel has done-civilians have been explicitly targeted and food and medical supplies have been withheld.

If any country bombed where I lived, shot at and starved my family, and prevented me from getting food and medicine, I’d want revenge. The IRA also hid amongst civilians and knew that some would get caught in the crossfire-whenever it happened their recruitment benefitted. The British government still did what it could to minimise the loss of life. The Israelis seem to be trying to maximise it.

 

[David O'Day]

You said ‘when the genocide begun’. In your mind, when did Israel’s actions become genocide? Clearly it was between October and December 2023 because the you rationalised the support of Palestinians of Hamas’ ‘vile terrorist actions’ (your words) in October because ‘genocide had begun’.

If you want to amend earlier comments, by all means. Here’s a reminder of the polling and it was published in Dec 2023 and conducted shortly after the attacks.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

My inkling is that you viewed the conflict as genocide from Day 1 of the Israeli invasion.

No I didn't, I thought it became Genocide when it became clear the intentions where not solely to get any hostages but to wipe out the population of the Gaza Strip.

When did I say these words "‘vile terrorist actions’ (your words) in October because ‘genocide had begun"?

 

[David O'Day]

No, I don't believe he does.

Not trying to stick up for him, but DOD isn't saying that.

I think he's saying that the intention was to wipe Gaza out in retaliation

But that took time and endless bombing and battles etc and of course restriction upon aid and supplies

Yeah, he's either stupid and hasn't understood what has been said to him or he is intentionally lying about what has been said.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Very noteworthy, that the UN did not label the endless bombing and attacks by Israel , a genocide, until it actually became a genocide.

The relentless day after day, bombardment and restriction of aid etc. it kept going on and on, endlessly. No let up and very, very little mercy.

The aim of Israeli forces seemed to be to drive all Palenstians out of Gaza.

The Hamas attack, horrendous as it was, was a one day attack where they tried to kill as many as they could and to take hostages on that day. That was a statement attack. Not defending it at all.

That incident wasn't trying to destroy all of Israel.

It's as clear as day as to why the UN called the one a genocide.

Yep, the Genocide by Israel was not labelled a Genocide and nor was it a Genocide at the start.

A point @Mucca Mad Boys doesn't really care about though.

The same UN will call Russia’s actions in Ukraine as war crimes but stops short of calling it genocide. Why?

Russia bombs civilian areas. It doesn’t allow aid full stop. Abducts Ukrainian children. Russian officials have denied the legitimacy of Ukrainian statehood. All things similar that is the basis of the UN’s designation of genocide in Gaza.

Let’s be clear, why is the Israel-Gaza genocide but not the Russia-Ukraine war? Theres a clear moral inconsistency from the UN between what it considers war crimes v genocide depending on the combatants.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/09/un-commission-inquiry-ukraine-finds-continued-systematic-and-widespread-use

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Yeah, he's either stupid and hasn't understood what has been said to him or he is intentionally lying about what has been said.

No I didn't, I thought it became Genocide when it became clear the intentions where not solely to get any hostages but to wipe out the population of the Gaza Strip.

When did I say these words "‘vile terrorist actions’ (your words) in October because ‘genocide had begun"?

Dis you? Your unedited words:

there are almost 10m people in Israel, did they intend that day to kill most or all of them that day?

No, it was a vile terrorist attack

 

[David O'Day]

Dis you? Your unedited words:

Yes, but where is the rest of the words within the quotation marks? You do realis In this case it turns out that I have only called Hamas actions a vile terrorist attack and not the rest.

Why are you purposefully misquoting me?

 

[chiefdave]

With Starmers sudden new found interest in how football supporters are treated when you we expecting him to work 'at pace' to get the stupid barrier in the car park removed and ensure we never get a reduced allocation at away games?

 

[David O'Day]

With Starmers sudden new found interest in how football supporters are treated when you we expecting him to work 'at pace' to get the stupid barrier in the car park removed and ensure we never get a reduced allocation at away games?

He'd best be getting his transport team on the train service before and after the game.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The same UN will call Russia’s actions in Ukraine as war crimes but stops short of calling it genocide. Why?

Russia bombs civilian areas. It doesn’t allow aid full stop. Abducts Ukrainian children. Russian officials have denied the legitimacy of Ukrainian statehood. All things similar that is the basis of the UN’s designation of genocide in Gaza.

Let’s be clear, why is the Israel-Gaza genocide but not the Russia-Ukraine war? Theres a clear moral inconsistency from the UN between what it considers war crimes v genocide depending on the combatants.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/09/un-commission-inquiry-ukraine-finds-continued-systematic-and-widespread-use

Russia has its permanent seat on the security council which is probably a factor. I’d argue there’s definitely a case against him for attempting genocide.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No, I don't believe he does.

Not trying to stick up for him, but DOD isn't saying that.

I think he's saying that the intention was to wipe Gaza out in retaliation

But that took time and endless bombing and battles etc and of course restriction upon aid and supplies

But they’re not trying to wipe out Gaza, they’re trying to wipe out Hamas who hides in plain sight among ordinary Palestinians and base themselves in hospitals and places of worship. Looking at the peace plan, Hamas will be ousted and the Gaza Strip remains under Palestinian control.

70k casualties of a 2m population. Which is a tragic loss of life but when people claim 1.3k massacred and 0.2k hostages held isn’t genocide because ‘10m population’ is

Yes, but where is the rest of the words within the quotation marks? You do realise if you quote someone using quotation marks then you are stating that the person has said those words. In this case it turns out that I have only called Hamas actions a vile terrorist attack and not the rest.

Why are you purposefully misquoting me?

How have I misquoted you? You called Hamas’ operation on Oct 7th a ‘vile terrorist attack’. The essential facts are true that you rationalised Palestinians supporting Hamas’ actions of Oct 7th which you yourself described as a ‘vile terrorist attack’.

Just to be clear, you said the following in chronological order:

Quote 1

Are you shocked that a population that has seen it's infrastructure levelled and it's neighbour attempt to basically force them from their lands may rightly or wrongly side with anyone who can be seen to oppose that?

Quote 2

After the Genocide had started.

Quote 3

there are almost 10m people in Israel, did they intend that day to kill most or all of them that day?

No, it was a vile terrorist attack

From your words in quote 1, where you empathised why Palestinians may ‘rightly or wrongly’ side with Hamas’ vile terrorist actions (quote 3)… you said “after the genocide had started”. Perhaps this eluded you, but the polling was published in Dec 2023 and conducted shortly after the attack.

With respect, I’m not misrepresenting what you said. If you’d like to clarify any comments, that’s fine but this is basis of my understanding of your arguments right now.

Therefore, my question to you is simple: when did Israel’s actions between Oct-Dec 2023 become genocidal?

For your argument to be logical and coherent, there needs to be a clearly defined process for when it move from legitimate war, to war crimes to genocide. Otherwise, we’re throwing around words.

@Otis the timeline is clear for DOD, in his own words the conflict became genocide between Sept-Dec 2023. When question is simple: when? In the absence of a concrete answer suggests that it was from Day 1.

 

[David O'Day]

But they’re not trying to wipe out Gaza, they’re trying to wipe out Hamas who hides in plain sight among ordinary Palestinians and base themselves in hospitals and places of worship. Looking at the peace plan, Hamas will be ousted and the Gaza Strip remains under Palestinian control.

70k casualties of a 2m population. Which is a tragic loss of life but when people claim 1.3k massacred and 0.2k hostages held isn’t genocide because ‘10m population’ is


How have I misquoted you? You called Hamas’ operation on Oct 7th a ‘vile terrorist attack’. The essential facts are true that you rationalised Palestinians supporting Hamas’ actions of Oct 7th which you yourself described as a ‘vile terrorist attack’.

Just to be clear, you said the following in chronological order:

Quote 1

Quote 2

Quote 3


From your words in quote 1, where you empathised why Palestinians may ‘rightly or wrongly’ side with Hamas’ vile terrorist actions (quote 3)… you said “after the genocide had started”. Perhaps this eluded you, but the polling was published in Dec 2023 and conducted shortly after the attack.

With respect, I’m not misrepresenting what you said. If you’d like to clarify any comments, that’s fine but this is basis of my understanding of your arguments right now.

Therefore, my question to you is simple: when did Israel’s actions between Oct-Dec 2023 become genocidal?

For your argument to be logical and coherent, there needs to be a clearly defined process for when it move from legitimate war, to war crimes to genocide. Otherwise, we’re throwing around words.

You are clearly lying about I have said and I would like an apology.

For your "argument" to be "logical and coherent" you first need to not lie about what other people have said.

Only words anyone wants to hear from you now is "I'm sorry for lying about what you said".

But you won't as you aren't very smart and the only way you can try and argue is to lie and double done when people call you out. Even Otis has called you out on it now.

So if you aren't going to say sorry then you really have no credibility left at all in the eyes of everyone.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Russia has its permanent seat on the security council which is probably a factor. I’d argue there’s definitely a case against him for attempting genocide.

Disagreeing with the UN’s definition is “a take”.

Looking back historically, when we bombed Dresden in WW2, was that genocide? It was a vindictive attack on civilian area. Or, take the nuclear bombings in Japan where non-military

The reason I use WW2 is because it was a righteous war imo. But, let’s be clear, we did a lot of evil to win that war. The problem with the pretty vague UN definition of genocide used here is that you can pick out any war and label it a genocide. Nearly every war will have significantly more civilian deaths than military deaths.

For what it’s worth, I think Russia has committed war crimes as has Israel in Gaza and no doubt most combatants in most wars will have examples of war crimes accidental or deliberate.

War is a nasty and brutal business. There’s no such thing as a clear war.

 

[David O'Day]

Disagreeing with the UN’s definition is “a take”.

Looking back historically, when we bombed Dresden in WW2, was that genocide? It was a vindictive attack on civilian area. Or, take the nuclear bombings in Japan where non-military

The reason I use WW2 is because it was a righteous war imo. But, let’s be clear, we did a lot of evil to win that war. The problem with the pretty vague UN definition of genocide used here is that you can pick out any war and label it a genocide. Nearly every war will have significantly more civilian deaths than military deaths.

For what it’s worth, I think Russia has committed war crimes as has Israel in Gaza and no doubt most combatants in most wars will have examples of war crimes accidental or deliberate.

War is a nasty and brutal business. There’s no such thing as a clear war.

That's not an apology

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You are clearly lying about I have said and I would like an apology.

For your "argument" to be "logical and coherent" you first need to not lie about what other people have said.

Only words anyone wants to hear from you now is "I'm sorry for lying about what you said".

But you won't as you aren't very smart and the only way you can try and argue is to lie and double done when people call you out. Even Otis has called you out on it now.

So if you aren't going to say sorry then you really have no credibility left at all in the eyes of everyone.

Stop the fake outrage, there is no lie because I’ve quoted you directly. 3 times. You were invited to clarify any details I may have misunderstood, this was declined.

With respect, you’re not getting an apology and nor are entitled to one.

 

[fatso]

This is genocidal intent but not Hamas’ actions?

October 7th 2023, the Kibbutz communities were targeted and the supernova dance festival. Women were raped and civilians abducted and Hamas officials justified and initiated these actions.

By your own words, either both Hamas and the IDF are genocidal or vile terrorists. Pick one and apply it to both sides. With respect, you lack moral clarity.

I know if an incident like that was perpetrated on UK soil, I’d want the UK government to go to war to get hostages back. Like the Taliban in Afghanistan, it’s uniquely difficult when your enemy embeds itself in civilian areas.

Are but your forgetting, that in the loony lefty world, only the sins of the Israeli people count, October the 7th has long been forgotten. The hostages didn't count either before you ask.

All that matters is that antisemitism can thrive.

The reality is that Israelis have been legitimate targets of Hamas for years, there's been armed guards on the streets of Jerusalem for decades before this war kicked off due to acts of terror from Muslim terrorists.

While not condoning the actions of either side (and the mass bombing. Starving and murder of inocent people is appalling wherever it happens) it is unfortunately inevitable that something was going to give eventually.
The situation was simply untenable.

I seriously doubt if this cease fire will hold or lead to a permanent peace treaty, and Hamas has already teported to of moved back into its previous strongholds and is carrying out executions.

What a fucking shit show.
Personally I think only permanent re settlement of the Palestinian people will give them and the Israelis peace, if that's considered too much to ask, then we can expect an inevitable return to conflict.

 

[MusicDating]

With Starmers sudden new found interest in how football supporters are treated when you we expecting him to work 'at pace' to get the stupid barrier in the car park removed and ensure we never get a reduced allocation at away games?

The Maccabi fans seem a lovely lot

Israeli football fans and the violence in Amsterdam: what we know

The trouble in the Netherlands when Maccabi Tel Aviv played Ajax last week horrified people around the world

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sick Boy]

All that matters is that antisemitism can thrive.

This is coming from the poster who claimed that Jews control the world - fucking hell.

 

[fatso]

This is coming from the poster who claimed that Jews control the world - fucking hell.

Do you disagree then?

 

[Sick Boy]

Do you disagree then?

With your claims that Jews control the world? Yes of course.

 

[David O'Day]

Stop the fake outrage, there is no lie because I’ve quoted you directly. 3 times. You were invited to clarify any details I may have misunderstood, this was declined.

With respect, you’re not getting an apology and nor are entitled to one.

nope that is still not an apology and no you did not quote me directly as you took one thing I said and then conflated it with something else.

If you are too much of a pussy to admit you were wrong then it's only you that loses

 

[mmttww]

But they’re not trying to wipe out Gaza...

 

[fatso]

With your claims that Jews control the world? Yes of course.

Then explain to us, (just for starters) why Israel has managed to carry out such genocide with zero condemnation from the west?
How have they not run out of weapons?
How come their iron dome defence system never runs out of missiles?
Why is there an American carrier fleet in the vicinity at all times preventing Israels enemies from attacking?
How come Israel isnt under the devastating embargo's and financial penalties that Russia finds itself under?