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Israel - Palestinian Conflict (8 Viewers)

  • Thread starter napolimp
  • Start date Oct 9, 2023
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Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 11:50 AM
  • #6,371
PVA said:
He's been clear in the past he has no issue with innocent Muslims being bombed just because he doesn't agree with their views.
Click to expand...
I'm told that I'm in the minority of opinion on this, but if that is the majority opinion I'm glad to be. It was once the majority consensus that the Earth was the centre of the universe and that diseases were caused by 'bad humours' in the body.
 

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 11:51 AM
  • #6,372
Ccfcisparks said:
Wish we would resign Sheaf so he would just go back to spouting crap about him
Click to expand...

It might be a low bar on these threads, but you seem to struggle to engage in these discussions properly. I'm not sure you have the maturity or intelligence for them to be honest.
 
Reactions: LarryGrayson

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 11:53 AM
  • #6,373
Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
It might be a low bar on these threads, but you seem to struggle to engage in these discussions properly. I'm not sure you have the maturity or intelligence for them to be honest.
Click to expand...
Fantastic personal insults. Fortunately I don't engage in them properly as they are depressing to read. If only I had your intelligence Earlsdon I'd be able to travel the world dating models as you do.
 
Reactions: covcity4life and LarryGrayson

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 11:54 AM
  • #6,374
Sick Boy said:
Isn't the population of Israel around 9 million?
Click to expand...
The population of Gaza is 2m, so what’s your point?

Sick Boy said:
The mask finally slipped today at least
Click to expand...
Yep but not in the way you think.

David O'Day said:
there are almost 10m people in Israel, did they intend that day to kill most or all of them that day?

No, it was a vile terrorist attack
Click to expand...

So Hamas militants invade Israel, rejoice in specifically killing Jews and that is not genocidal? Using the definitions you and others rely on for your own purposes, scale isn’t actually important. It’s the intent behind it and Hamas’ intentions were v clear.

Using your logic, at what point did the IDF move from legitimate military response to terrorism to then genocide? From an earlier post you seem to suggest it was genocide from Day 1.

Grendel said:
What is the specified aim of Hamas?
Click to expand...

It’s inherently strange to see several left wing posters who regularly comment about fascists in the UK, USA and Europe. Come to ignore that Hamas’ offshoots that is deeply antisemitic with links to al-Husayni, who met with Hitler and was a Nazi sympathiser. Again, their charters were amended in 2017 that all but changed references of ‘Jews’ to ‘Zionist’. There’s an unbelievably naive view of Hamas in the West.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 11:55 AM
  • #6,375
Mucca Mad Boys said:
It’s inherently strange to see several left wing posters who regularly comment about fascists in the UK, USA and Europe. Come to ignore that Hamas’ offshoots that is deeply antisemitic with links to al-Husayni, who met with Hitler and was a Nazi sympathiser. Again, their charters were amended in 2017 that all but changed references of ‘Jews’ to ‘Zionist’. There’s an unbelievably naive view of Hamas in the West.
Click to expand...
Who on here has expressed support for Hamas?
 
Reactions: covcity4life and Otis

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 11:56 AM
  • #6,376
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Who on here has expressed support for Hamas?
Click to expand...
There is no element of nuance to any of their comments. They can't grasp the concept that you can have empathy for a group of people who have been marginalised, whilst also not supporting the terrorist actions of a group on that "side"
 
Reactions: covcity4life, Sky_Blue_Dreamer, Otis and 2 others

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Yesterday at 11:58 AM
  • #6,377
Mucca Mad Boys said:
It’s inherently strange to see several left wing posters who regularly comment about fascists in the UK, USA and Europe. Come to ignore that Hamas’ offshoots that is deeply antisemitic with links to al-Husayni, who met with Hitler and was a Nazi sympathiser. Again, their charters were amended in 2017 that all but changed references of ‘Jews’ to ‘Zionist’. There’s an unbelievably naive view of Hamas in the West.
Click to expand...
It’s also inherently strange to assume criticism of Israel automatically makes someone supportive or sympathetic of Hamas.
 
Reactions: covcity4life, SBT, Sky_Blue_Dreamer and 3 others

Ccfcisparks

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 11:59 AM
  • #6,378
Sick Boy said:
It’s also inherently strange to assume criticism of Israel automatically makes someone supportive or sympathetic of Hamas.
Click to expand...
Its the same on the football side. The thinking is so black and white. They hate a player, so can't comment when they contribute positively.
 
Reactions: covcity4life and Sick Boy

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:00 PM
  • #6,379
Mucca Mad Boys said:
The population of Gaza is 2m, so what’s your point?


Yep but not in the way you think.



So Hamas militants invade Israel, rejoice in specifically killing Jews and that is not genocidal? Using the definitions you and others rely on for your own purposes, scale isn’t actually important. It’s the intent behind it and Hamas’ intentions were v clear.

Using your logic, at what point did the IDF move from legitimate military response to terrorism to then genocide? From an earlier post you seem to suggest it was genocide from Day 1.



It’s inherently strange to see several left wing posters who regularly comment about fascists in the UK, USA and Europe. Come to ignore that Hamas’ offshoots that is deeply antisemitic with links to al-Husayni, who met with Hitler and was a Nazi sympathiser. Again, their charters were amended in 2017 that all but changed references of ‘Jews’ to ‘Zionist’. There’s an unbelievably naive view of Hamas in the West.
Click to expand...
Did they intend to kill all or most of the population? No, why can't you understand what Genocide actually means

Once again, who has supported Hamas?
 
Reactions: Otis

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:01 PM
  • #6,380
Sick Boy said:
It’s also inherently strange to assume criticism of Israel automatically makes someone supportive or sympathetic of Hamas.
Click to expand...
It's almost as if he has decided the position he should take but hasn't actually taken the time to find out why.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:03 PM
  • #6,381
Here we go

 
Reactions: TomRad85, Gynnsthetonic, Mucca Mad Boys and 1 other person

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:04 PM
  • #6,382
Brighton Sky Blue said:
My point isn't convenient for you, but it is relevant. There has been an effort by some, including Keir Starmer who is apparently always right on issues pertaining to Israel but nothing else, to portray this as an anti-Semitic act.

Jewish Aston Villa fans can and will go to this game, despite being surrounded by all these nasty Muslims. They will both go and support the same club in a reflection of the multicultural city that the club is based in.

I don't know or particularly care much about Ajax.
Click to expand...

You can't argue that I am finding your argument inconvenient and then say you don't know or care about Ajax. You are just showing yourself up as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

This multi-cultural success story as you paint it, is showing some big cracks. This whole discussion point and what has happened with the football is real-time indicator of it, and it has gone well over your head.
 
Reactions: LarryGrayson and Mucca Mad Boys
D

Dougin

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:05 PM
  • #6,383
duffer said:
Weird? Fuck me, have you seen what your nonce boy hero looks like.

Anyone who brainlessly cheers on a sex pest nonce is clearly a bit odd too. And I'm afraid you're the one who hates people.... Ooh the left, ooh immigrants, ooh brown people, ooh people with strange hair. They're all so horrible. Waah, can't we lock them all up.

What's also weird is suddenly faking an interest in Gaza, when for the last two years you couldn't give a shit about it. Or is that just odiously hypocritical. Probably both.

Anyway, my dad had a good word for blokes like you. Gobshite. The approximate definition is completely full of shit, not worth listening too. Good advice.
Click to expand...
I’m glad you got that off your chest. Now get yourself back down the job centre.
 
Reactions: SkyBlueDom26 and Grendel

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:07 PM
  • #6,384
Dougin said:
I’m glad you got that off your chest. Now get yourself back down the job centre.
Click to expand...
Hi Greggs
 
Reactions: covcity4life
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:07 PM
  • #6,385
I suspect the decision will be overturned, and it will kick off.

Then there will be an awful lot of finger pointing about who's to blame.

Now the decision has been made, they should stick with it. To overturn it now just adds a whole other layer of complexity to it and makes an already bad situation potentially worse.

Obviously I hope that if it is overturned, it goes ahead without incident.
 
D

Dougin

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:07 PM
  • #6,386
This is what multiculturalism brings you. British MP’s who only fight for the cause of “her” people.

The end is nigh.
 
D

Dougin

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:08 PM
  • #6,387
PVA said:
I suspect the decision will be overturned, and it will kick off.

Then there will be an awful lot of finger pointing about who's to blame.

Now the decision has been made, they should stick with it. To overturn it now just adds a whole other layer of complexity to it and makes an already bad situation potentially worse.

Obviously I hope that if it is overturned, it goes ahead without incident.
Click to expand...
It should be overturned and as many police put in as necessary. If anyone causes trouble, they should be put straight in jail and fast tracked to court.
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:10 PM
  • #6,388
PVA said:
I suspect the decision will be overturned, and it will kick off.

Then there will be an awful lot of finger pointing about who's to blame.

Now the decision has been made, they should stick with it. To overturn it now just adds a whole other layer of complexity to it and makes an already bad situation potentially worse.

Obviously I hope that if it is overturned, it goes ahead without incident.
Click to expand...
If it is overturned, maybe they could "bubble" match the game like they do for games like Cardiff vs Swansea.

Only allow them to use certain flights in and bus straight o ground and back again to airport.

It can't be accused of being "Anti Semtic" as this is how UK police deal with high risk league fixtures.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:10 PM
  • #6,389
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Who on here has expressed support for Hamas?
Click to expand...
Sick Boy said:
It’s also inherently strange to assume criticism of Israel automatically makes someone supportive or sympathetic of Hamas.
Click to expand...
You have to understand Hamas to understand Israel’s response. Frankly, Hamas is a genocidal death cult who do not want to coexist with Israel and changing its charter shouldn’t kid anyone.

With that in mind, how does Israel conduct war with an entity that wants to Palestine to be ‘free from the river the sea’ (to clarify, means no Israel) and embeds itself deliberately in civilian infrastructure.

If there was a defined ‘front’ like in Ukraine, then the arguments make sense if Israel was targeting non-combatant areas. As it happens, Hamas has deliberately used the Palestinians as human shields.

Every war has significantly more civilian casualties than combatants therefore, if that’s the new baseline… Every war is by definition genocidal.

David O'Day said:
Did they intend to kill all or most of the population? No, why can't you understand what Genocide actually means

Once again, who has supported Hamas?
Click to expand...
If it’s all the population that needs to be targeted, then Israel wouldn’t be guilty genocide. There 2m inhabitants in Gaza and 70k deaths - 3.5%. If Hamas had Israel’s military capabilities, they would be more than capable of genocide. They killed the numbers they did using v rudimentary military means and a lack of coordination with entities such as Hezbollah.

Is it intent that matters or scale? You seem to say scale whereas the definition of genocide being used by the UN specifically outlines intent. Likewise, before the conflict Gaza’s population was growing.
 

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:10 PM
  • #6,390
PVA said:
I suspect the decision will be overturned, and it will kick off.

Then there will be an awful lot of finger pointing about who's to blame.

Now the decision has been made, they should stick with it. To overturn it now just adds a whole other layer of complexity to it and makes an already bad situation potentially worse.

Obviously I hope that if it is overturned, it goes ahead without incident.
Click to expand...
You're probably right, it's to much in the mainstream now to reverse and would make it worse if they did
 

TomRad85

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:11 PM
  • #6,391
Grendel said:
Here we go

Click to expand...
Like I said, a decision popular with Islamists and fringe left wingers. No one else.
 
Reactions: covcity4life, Earlsdon_Skyblue1, SkyBlueDom26 and 1 other person

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:11 PM
  • #6,392
Mucca Mad Boys said:
You have to understand Hamas to understand Israel’s response. Frankly, Hamas is a genocidal death cult who do not want to coexist with Israel and changing its charter shouldn’t kid anyone.

With that in mind, how does Israel conduct war with an entity that wants to Palestine to be ‘free from the river the sea’ (to clarify, means no Israel) and embeds itself deliberately in civilian infrastructure.

If there was a defined ‘front’ like in Ukraine, then the arguments make sense if Israel was targeting non-combatant areas. As it happens, Hamas has deliberately used the Palestinians as human shields.

Every war has significantly more civilian casualties than combatants therefore, if that’s the new baseline… Every war is by definition genocidal.


If it’s all the population that needs to be targeted, then Israel wouldn’t be guilty genocide. There 2m inhabitants in Gaza and 70k deaths - 3.5%. If Hamas had Israel’s military capabilities, they would be more than capable of genocide. They killed the numbers they did using v rudimentary military means and a lack of coordination with entities such as Hezbollah.

Is it intent that matters or scale? You seem to say scale whereas the definition of genocide being used by the UN specifically outlines intent. Likewise, before the conflict Gaza’s population was growing.
Click to expand...
It's the definition mate, that is what matters and if an act falls under that. Genocide is something there is a set international definition of.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?
 

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:12 PM
  • #6,393
David O'Day said:
If it is overturned, maybe they could "bubble" match the game like they do for games like Cardiff vs Swansea.

Only allow them to use certain flights in and bus straight o ground and back again to airport.

It can't be accused of being "Anti Semtic" as this is how UK police deal with high risk league fixtures.
Click to expand...
A flight from BHX to Norwich or Shrewsbury. There fans could live all over the place
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:13 PM
  • #6,394
Mucca Mad Boys said:
You have to understand Hamas to understand Israel’s response. Frankly, Hamas is a genocidal death cult who do not want to coexist with Israel and changing its charter shouldn’t kid anyone.

With that in mind, how does Israel conduct war with an entity that wants to Palestine to be ‘free from the river the sea’ (to clarify, means no Israel) and embeds itself deliberately in civilian infrastructure.

If there was a defined ‘front’ like in Ukraine, then the arguments make sense if Israel was targeting non-combatant areas. As it happens, Hamas has deliberately used the Palestinians as human shields.

Every war has significantly more civilian casualties than combatants therefore, if that’s the new baseline… Every war is by definition genocidal.


If it’s all the population that needs to be targeted, then Israel wouldn’t be guilty genocide. There 2m inhabitants in Gaza and 70k deaths - 3.5%. If Hamas had Israel’s military capabilities, they would be more than capable of genocide. They killed the numbers they did using v rudimentary military means and a lack of coordination with entities such as Hezbollah.

Is it intent that matters or scale? You seem to say scale whereas the definition of genocide being used by the UN specifically outlines intent. Likewise, before the conflict Gaza’s population was growing.
Click to expand...
You're just acting as an apologist for Israel's crimes at this point. Do you think they have done anything wrong at least?
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:15 PM
  • #6,395
Gynnsthetonic said:
A flight from BHX to Norwich or Shrewsbury. There fans could live all over the place
Click to expand...
And? If you are a Swansea fan who wants to go to your game away at Cardiff you have to go to Swansea first even if you live in say London.

Unlucky
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:15 PM
  • #6,396
David O'Day said:
It's the definition mate, that is what matters and if an act falls under that. Genocide is something there is a set international definition of.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Click to expand...
Then why do you struggle to apply the same definition to Hamas actions.

More specifically, at what point does war become genocide? You said earlier ‘after the genocide begun’. Which was when? The moment Israel entered Gaza or was there a specific event where the line was crossed?
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:16 PM
  • #6,397
Brighton Sky Blue said:
You're just acting as an apologist for Israel's crimes at this point. Do you think they have done anything wrong at least?
Click to expand...

This is childish. I acknowledge that there is extreme difficulty in waging war against an entity like Hamas in densely populated areas.

As a starting point, Israel’s retaliation against a ‘vile terrorist act’ was justified to oust Hamas and retrieve the hostages. I’m curious whether you think retaliation at any point was justified and if it was, at what point did it become genocide.

Following the logic you and others put forward, it would seem that any and all wars would tantamount to genocide. Which is clearly not a tenable view to hold.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:17 PM
  • #6,398
Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You can't argue that I am finding your argument inconvenient and then say you don't know or care about Ajax. You are just showing yourself up as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

This multi-cultural success story as you paint it, is showing some big cracks. This whole discussion point and what has happened with the football is real-time indicator of it, and it has gone well over your head.
Click to expand...
I concede that I don't know much about Ajax, and if this were the Ajax fan forum I'd look pretty silly.

You are another who just doesn't like Muslims, and have at least said as much. You and others continue to ignore that Jews haven't actually been barred from attending-it's inconvenient to accept that.

Longer ago English clubs were barred from European competitions because of a hooliganism problem. Maybe some people have forgotten that.
 
Reactions: covcity4life

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:19 PM
  • #6,399
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Then why do you struggle to apply the same definition to Hamas actions.

More specifically, at what point does war become genocide? You said earlier ‘after the genocide begun’. Which was when? The moment Israel entered Gaza or was there a specific event where the line was crossed?
Click to expand...
I am applying the same definition and we have clearly explained to you the difference in the actions as compared the the internationally agreed definition.

When does war become genocide? Why are you throwing pretty shite straw men into this now?

You compared the actions of Hamas on the 7th of October 2023 with the actions of Israel in all the days that have passed. We are talking about your set of date parameters here.

Are you trying to change the parameters now?
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:20 PM
  • #6,400
Mucca Mad Boys said:
This is childish. I acknowledge that there is extreme difficulty in waging war against an entity like Hamas in densely populated areas.
Click to expand...
Civilians have been invited to queue up to receive aid and then used as shooting practice. Israeli ministers have openly said that they want to bomb the aid supplies and deny any food or medical relief going in. There have been debates in the Knesset about whether or not IDF soldiers should be allowed to rape prisoners; with outrage expressed at the idea that it might not be allowed.

Why oh why is it so hard for you to call it what it is?
 

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:20 PM
  • #6,401
David O'Day said:
And? If you are a Swansea fan who wants to go to your game away at Cardiff you have to go to Swansea first even if you live in say London.

Unlucky
Click to expand...
So someone who lives in the UK has to fly back to Israel then get a fight back. Oh dear Dave, it's Friday the day your underpants visit the laundrette, I'll let you off
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:22 PM
  • #6,402
On another note the government has announced it has ended its intelligence gathering flights from the UK over Gaza on behalf of the Israeli military.

You may recall discussion on the intelligence gathering flights. They are the ones that Palestine Action claimed were departing from the UK which the government flat out denied so slightly odd for them to now confirm they were taking place.

In other Palestine Action related news the defence secretary, John Healey, when pushed in parliament for an itemised breakdown of the claim that PA caused millions in damage, has been forced to admit the MoD have no clue what the costs are as they have not yet been assessed.
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:23 PM
  • #6,403
Gynnsthetonic said:
So someone who lives in the UK has to fly back to Israel then get a fight back. Oh dear Dave, it's Friday the day your underpants visit the laundrette, I'll let you off
Click to expand...
Ok, they have to get to B'ham airport and then get on the same buses to the ground

Same as a Swansea fan living in London has to travel past Cardiff to go to the Swansea ground to get on a bus to the Game and is then bussed back.

Better luck next time fella.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:24 PM
  • #6,404
Gynnsthetonic said:
So someone who lives in the UK has to fly back to Israel then get a fight back. Oh dear Dave, it's Friday the day your underpants visit the laundrette, I'll let you off
Click to expand...
This is exactly the logic that has been applied to other games. When I lived near Fratton Park they made Southampton supporters who lived in Pompey travel back to Southampton to then travel in a 'bubble' to the game. Without doing that there was no way for them to obtain tickets.

It may seem crazy but it is a tactic that is already in use to prevent trouble.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 12:25 PM
  • #6,405
Grendel said:
Here we go

Click to expand...
Her statement doesn't match the article.
 
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