General Election 2019 thread (11 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

The demands on the system now are far greater and there needs to be some way to keep a lid on the costs of a population living longer and increasing by several hundred thousand a year from immigration alone. I'm not even arguing about paying full price for procedures but just some measure of keeping the system sustainable. This is a 75 year old set-up that needs some help to go on for another 75.

It’s called taxes and they’re already paying it. The problem is wasteful governments failing to invest and spend taxes not some Johnny Foreigner coming here and contributing.

 

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[shmmeee]

The demands on the system now are far greater and there needs to be some way to keep a lid on the costs of a population living longer and increasing by several hundred thousand a year from immigration alone. I'm not even arguing about paying full price for procedures but just some measure of keeping the system sustainable. This is a 75 year old set-up that needs some help to go on for another 75.

Health tourism costs 0.3% of the budget. It’s not breaking it financially.

Health tourism: what's the cost?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s called taxes and they’re already paying it. The problem is wasteful governments failing to invest and spend taxes not some Johnny Foreigner coming here and contributing.

Health tourism costs 0.3% of the budget. It’s not breaking it financially.

Health tourism: what's the cost?

Spending on the NHS in England

The key point being that even with the Tories bothering to keep funding in line with inflation, the NHS would still be struggling to meet the demands of an ageing population that continues to increase. I am not saying that charging non-UK citizens is the only answer. But what is clear is that tax rises and even just keeping up with inflation are not going to be enough. This isn't about being anti-immigration. But those who arrive as adults have clearly not been paying into the system for as long as those born and raised here. They also increase the population above and beyond what we get from the birth rate.

Painting people as xenophobes on this is what prevents the issue from being solved.

 

[Philosorapter]

There is an argument for universal services in the system to cut down on beaurocracy. Getting rid of a mean figure when you don't qualify for free services. Definitely workable and payable with tax rises who will be in the salary bracket to benefit from this and also from businesses paying their fair share in taxes.

 

[Astute]

Sadly as it was Labour 2010-15.

But that was when Labour was styled on the Tories.

 

[shmmeee]

There is an argument for universal services in the system to cut down on beaurocracy. Getting rid of a mean figure when you don't qualify for free services. Definitely workable and payable with tax rises who will benefit from this and also from businesses paying their fair share in taxes.

I think healthcare will always be best pooled from taxation personally, fewer overheads without a competitive market and it’s not a proper market. But I do like the idea of UBI in general and strip out a lot of other stuff.

But that was when Labour was styled on the Tories.

Milibands policy platform wasn’t a million miles from Labours 2017 manifesto, he was definitely further left than Blair. Though I’d expect this years to be further left to be fair.

 

[Ian1779]

I think healthcare will always be best pooled from taxation personally, fewer overheads without a competitive market and it’s not a proper market. But I do like the idea of UBI in general and strip out a lot of other stuff.




Milibands policy platform wasn’t a million miles from Labours 2017 manifesto, he was definitely further left than Blair. Though I’d expect this years to be further left to be fair.

Miliband was choked by the party. Corbyn would do well do bring him into his cabinet.

 

[Sick Boy]

OK so that just shifts the question to how do we determine full time residents. There’s still some level of checks on entry even if not while here.

You’ve got to admit, at a gut level there’s a difference between a homeless person born and raised in the U.K. and someone who has just stepped off the plane at BHX on day one in terms of housing need. If nothing else, we’ve already failed our own citizens for them to get to that point under our system.

As I say Im not sure any anti-immigration policy is logically sustainable. But neither is open borders. Hence my interest. I don’t have a fixed view yet.

Homeless in 2019 is a stain upon society as a whole, no one should be homeless with the wealth in Western Europe.

The country doesn’t actually have open borders though and a person stepping off a plane at Birmingham is not going to somehow be gifted a house either, so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.

 

[shmmeee]

I’d say we’re doing OK in terms of healthcare spending TBF.

 

[shmmeee]

Homeless in 2019 is a stain upon society as a whole, no one should be homeless with the wealth in Western Europe.

The country doesn’t actually have open borders though and a person stepping off a plane at Birmingham is not going to somehow be gifted a house either, so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.

The point I’m making I guess is that we agree it’s not (and shouldn’t be) open borders. And we agree it shouldn’t be closed borders. So we are just arguing about detail. I didn’t say these things are happening, I’m not sure how you’ve got that. I’m saying there’s obviously a difference between someone who has just arrived and someone who hasn’t and how should you quantify that?

If you say everyone who has arrived is cool, that’s fine, but how do you decide who arrives in the first place. “If you live here you should get full access” is a noble aim, but the detail is a little trickier. Not talking EU immigration here as that’s different (for now).

 

[CCFCSteve]

0.3% isn’t much (although £300m doesn’t sound so insignificant), that’s from just direct health tourism in 2012/13 on a nhs budget of £91bn, not wider costs of those that may not have ‘contributed into the system’. Figure would obviously be higher now as well.

Without getting onto the whole Brexit/migration debate there will obviously be an impact of net migration of 2.5m+ over the last ten years (4m-5m over the past 20) also all needing public services, many of whom may either be low paid or non earners (children, partners who may not work etc)

I always felt a solution to EU net migration could have been some kind of annual rebate on EU contributions which could go towards additional public services. Not straight forward to calculate but may have helped address some of the concerns and issues that subsequently arose. Would’ve disappeared into the black hole but may have made everyone feel a bit better :emoji_relaxed:

 

[shmmeee]

0.3% isn’t much (although £300m doesn’t sound so insignificant), that’s from just direct health tourism in 2012/13 on a nhs budget of £91bn, not wider costs of those that may not have ‘contributed into the system’. Figure would obviously be higher now as well.

Without getting onto the whole Brexit/migration debate there will obviously be an impact of net migration of 2.5m+ over the last ten years (4m-5m over the past 20) also all needing public services, many of whom may either be low paid or non earners (children, partners who may not work etc)

I always felt a solution to EU net migration could have been some kind of annual rebate on EU contributions which could go towards additional public services. Not straight forward to calculate but may have helped address some of the concerns and issues that subsequently arose. Would’ve disappeared into the black hole but may have made everyone feel a bit better :emoji_relaxed:

Don’t we bill EU citizens healthcare back to their country or did I imagine that?

Edit: we do. How much does the UK recover in health costs from the EU?

 

[CCFCSteve]

Don’t we bill EU citizens healthcare back to their country or did I imagine that?

Edit: we do. How much does the UK recover in health costs from the EU?

I always thought that was holidays but think I’m wrong ! Crazy how it’s calculated though...basically we were getting fucked !

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The last 7-8 years record of the Tory's on NHS laid out in black and white for all to see......abysmal.

Last I heard was that the same is true in Scotland where the devolved Scottish Govt have control...& it is forecast they are heading toward a serious deficit over the next few years as well!

The wait in A&E can easily be impacted by some virus with significantly worrying symptoms, & just as easily as by time wasters who aren't prepared to talk to a community pharmacist or wait for a GP appointment first, & just as easily staff sickness. The reasons are complex...the government of the day is just one of many factors...whether they be Labour, Tory or as is now demonstrated...SNP

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[shmmeee]

I always thought that was holidays but think I’m wrong ! Crazy how it’s calculated though...basically we were getting fucked !

Yes and no. We export a lot of pensioners, but we definitely should be asking for a lot more than we do. But generally it’s a weird system and everyone should just pay for their own healthcare surely?

 

[Sick Boy]

The point I’m making I guess is that we agree it’s not (and shouldn’t be) open borders. And we agree it shouldn’t be closed borders. So we are just arguing about detail. I didn’t say these things are happening, I’m not sure how you’ve got that. I’m saying there’s obviously a difference between someone who has just arrived and someone who hasn’t and how should you quantify that?

If you say everyone who has arrived is cool, that’s fine, but how do you decide who arrives in the first place. “If you live here you should get full access” is a noble aim, but the detail is a little trickier. Not talking EU immigration here as that’s different (for now).

Ahh okay, I was confused about where the open borders thing had come from. The difference is that a homeless person is going to require free housing whereas a person coming here to live and work isn't going to be offered free accommodation, so for me they are not comparable, no offence

If a person is eligible to live here legally as a resident and has proven they are not a burden on the country and able to support themselves and have housing, then what is the problem with them having access to healthcare? There have always been options for the UK to enforce this but it has consistently not bothered to do it.

I was ridiculed on here for mentioning the the local police come round to your house in Italy to check you live there and review your contract, documents and even pay slips if they wish. Then guess what? A poster who lives in Spain mentioned the same thing going on there.

It's the fault of successive governments for not bothering to spend money and implement these sort of checks for those wishing to claim residency, regardless of where they have come from.

 

[shmmeee]

Last I heard was that the same is true in Scotland where the devolved Scottish Govt have control...& it is forecast they are heading toward a serious deficit over the next few years as well!

The wait in A&E can easily be impacted by some virus with significantly worrying symptoms, & just as easily as by time wasters who aren't prepared to talk to a community pharmacist or wait for a GP appointment first, & just as easily staff sickness. The reasons are complex...the government of the day is just one of many factors...whether they be Labour, Tory or as is now demonstrated...SNP

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All the other factors are constant though. People haven’t suddenly started getting drunk or old or hypochondria at a greater rate.

The main issue in the last decade is under funding. All the staff say it’s under funding. The experts say it’s under funding. The stats say it’s underfunding. The only people that pull out this kind of whataboutism and deflection are members of the government.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

https://www.england.nhs.uk/2019/01/missed-gp-appointmentscosting-nhs-millions/

15m missed GP appointments....its disgraceful !

people abuse the system because it’s ‘free’. Whilst cutting that out doesn’t solve the problem people have got to start taking personal responsibility.

This is true, it is disgraceful - however the GPs are the best placed people to assess the reasons for missed appointments (It could be mental health issues, or being hospitalised or just a shitty attitude etc)

The GPs could easily identify and administer a 3 strikes & fine policy. I truly believe it needs something radical to stop the non-intentional wasters who just couldn't care less.

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[SkyblueBazza]

I mean it's easy to see why:

1. A list of lies going back decades

2. Failed infrastructure projects as Mayor, proposals to build £15 billion bridges to NI

3. Pledges to offer pork pies to the Yanks to get trade deals

4. Holding a referendum by proxy instead of a referendum outright

5. Crashing the pound in the name of playing politics with the EU

6. Proroguing Parliament while claiming to care about its sovereignty

7. Getting his aides to block any members of the public trying to ask him difficult questions

8. Not costing anything in his pledges but coming out with costs for Labour policies before they have been released

9. He tells jokes

Real high quality leadership material right there. What a time to be alive.

So on the one hand you think 18-24yr olds are a bit gullible, & on the other you would support 16yrs olds having a vote as well?

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[CCFCSteve]

All the other factors are constant though. People haven’t suddenly started getting drunk or old or hypochondria at a greater rate.

The main issue in the last decade is under funding. All the staff say it’s under funding. The experts say it’s under funding. The stats say it’s underfunding. The only people that pull out this kind of whataboutism and deflection are members of the government.

Yes and no. We export a lot of pensioners, but we definitely should be asking for a lot more than we do. But generally it’s a weird system and everyone should just pay for their own healthcare surely?

Fair point about the pensioners just saw that in the article

Strange that there’s a rebate for nhs but not other services (schooling etc).

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So on the one hand you think 18-24yr olds are a bit gullible, & on the other you would support 16yrs olds having a vote as well?

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Where did I say I wanted 16+ to have the vote? Johnson's charisma cons all parts of the age range.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Refute the points then Dumb. Is he not one of the biggest liars in the country? Did he not write essays for and against being in the EU before he calculated which would get him into No. 10? Isn't the Brexit deal he's brought back a rehash of what Theresa May tried to get through?

So on Brexit you would support someone who changes their mind...unless they are called Boris in which case they have sinister motives.
Actually, come to think of it - you'd advocate someone voting Labour in with Corbyn as PM...and yet he has not written essays on it - he has actually done it but the other way around!

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[dancers lance]

Yes...

And yet religious freedom is a thing. Because we know what happens if it’s not.

Indeed we do, especially if the religious freedom you choose is the one that doesn't believe in any religion. Everyone is equal when it comes to religious belief, it's just a shame that some are more equal than others.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

So if we are getting on with other issues, how is Brexit still the main issue??

Because unresolved Brexit is by far the biggest cause of uncertainty in the economy which is distracting much attention & investment from the said other issues. Once Brexit is resolved the other issues become more in focus

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

So on Brexit you would support someone who changes their mind...unless they are called Boris in which case they have sinister motives.
Actually, come to think of it - you'd advocate someone voting Labour in with Corbyn as PM...and yet he has not written essays on it - he has actually done it but the other way around!

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My point was that Johnson's Brexit stance was pure political calculation. Or do you disagree?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

He appeals to the base by virtue of wisecracks and catch all statements that don't mean anything but allow anyone to think he's standing up for them. Will just park this as a reminder to Dumb as to what the Tories think of voters like him:

Struth...you seem to have a very low opinion of your fellow citizens to listen, I terpret & form a constructive argument on any subject don't you? Or is that only true when they don't come to the same interpretation and conclusion as you?

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Because unresolved Brexit is by far the biggest cause of uncertainty in the economy which is distracting much attention & investment from the said other issues. Once Brexit is resolved the other issues become more in focus

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But by that time we've had an election and there'll still be the best part of a five year term to go. So everyone looks at the other policies that were in the manifesto and realise they're getting fucked over.

So if you wanted to resolve Brexit and then let the other issues come more into focus you have a vote to resolve Brexit. Not one that MIGHT resolve Brexit and leave you locked in on all other major policies for a number of years.

Alexander could've done than on the normal timetable for passing legislation. He chose not to.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I haven't always voted Labour and am open to change in the future.

Oh please...don't tell me you have voted UKIP out of sympathy like Tony did?

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Struth...you seem to have a very low opinion of your fellow citizens to listen, I terpret & form a constructive argument on any subject don't you? Or is that only true when they don't come to the same interpretation and conclusion as you?

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Honest question...what do you think of what Cameron's adviser said?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Oh please...don't tell me you have voted UKIP out of sympathy like Tony did?

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Nope. Have voted tactically against the SNP in the past

 

[Sick Boy]

Nope. Have voted tactically against the SNP in the past

Always knew you were a Tory boy at heart

 

[skybluetony176]

So having just watched Pritti Patel being interviewed on BBC news the headline this morning regarding cutting immigration was sensationalised to say the least. Immediately after her interview was an interview with Corbyn and they both said pretty much the same things. No arbitrary figures, fair system etc. Conclusion. The Tories future immigration policy is going to be as effective or ineffective if you prefer as Labours. The headline was bollocks.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I think foreign aid can help though. If people have at least the basic services and utilities and a half decent way of life they aren't going to be looking to emigrate to other countries with a totally different language and culture for a better lot in life. Best way to stop immigration IMO (and something that Brexit may actually achieve because immigration will drop because fewer people will want to come in the first place.

Prevention is better than cure.

Foreign aid is indeed (if targeted properly, for the right reasons) beneficial.
Are extremely poverty stricken nations/communities not part of the extremist's target population???

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

So having just watched Pritti Patel being interviewed on BBC news the headline this morning regarding cutting immigration was sensationalised to say the least. Immediately after her interview was an interview with Corbyn and they both said pretty much the same things. No arbitrary figures, fair system etc. Conclusion. The Tories future immigration policy is going to be as effective or ineffective if you prefer as Labours. The headline was bollocks.

Would love to see her asked if she would qualify

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I would rather aid only be administered in cases of natural or humanitarian disaster instead of a blank cheque that normally goes down a black hole. As long as we have homelessness and working poverty in this country I want the resources focussed on that instead.

OMG - I agree!

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