General Election 2019 thread (16 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

I’ll refer you to the link as well
Ian (which indicates labour were going to make significant cuts if they’d won the 2010 election and that it was 100% needed)

The ratio of cuts to tax rises was significantly different as was the pace of cuts. The areas they planned to cut as well. All political choices. Like the choice to raise VAT and cut Corporation Tax. Not all cuts are equal.

Browns stimulus package was absolutely needed and arguably didn’t go far enough. You’d have not done that I assume?

 

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[CCFCSteve]

That treasury letter was tradition. They’ve all done it, Cameron just weaponised it because he knew idiots would fall for it. Apparently still are.

Idiots ?!! Bit harsh. I don’t think Liam Byrne would’ve written the above apology letter/article if it was that simple. Why would Labour Party and supporters have had a go at him if it was just tradition.

He himself admits it was ridiculous thing to do but that’s not the point. i used it as an off the cuff comment to remind people of the reality of the situation at that time ie there was no money !! (And it wasn’t just Tory ideological austerity). Labour even recognised it and as detailed in the same article (please read it) were planning on making significant cuts themselves if they won the election.

why can’t people, however blinkered in their political beliefs, just accept it and move on !

life’s not as simple as Tories = bad, labour = good or vice versa !

 

[CCFCSteve]

The ratio of cuts to tax rises was significantly different as was the pace of cuts. The areas they planned to cut as well. All political choices. Like the choice to raise VAT and cut Corporation Tax. Not all cuts are equal.

Browns stimulus package was absolutely needed and arguably didn’t go far enough. You’d have not done that I assume?

Of course I would, I don’t recall ever questioning that ?

I know it was a long time ago on the thread but my issue wasn’t necessarily with what labour did post crisis but prior to it. I was also highlighting that Tory austerity argument in those earlier years is flawed/not as straightforward as people portray

 

[shmmeee]

Of course I would, I don’t recall ever questioning that ?

I know it was a long time ago on the thread but my issue wasn’t necessarily with what labour did post crisis but prior to it. I was also highlighting that Tory austerity argument in those earlier years is flawed/not as straightforward as people portray

As I said you can make a case that Brown overspent a little. But the decade prior to that as chancellor his record was exemplary. More surpluses than all of Thatchers years out together. He earned some headroom. And it was a drop in the bucket compared to the impact of the GFC. Like saying if only you’d taken your umbrella out you wouldn’t have died in a typhoon.

Also: the current Tory plan is to blow £70bn on Brexit. I’m not sure you can claim economic competence as a reason to vote for them. When spreadsheet Phil gets kicked out for being a square you know they’ve lost the plot.

Though I disagree with conservative politics, I could at least respect the likes of Clarke, Wollaston, Allen, Hammond as serious people. The current bunch of jokers aren’t fit to lace their boots.

 

[shmmeee]

More graphs. Real wage growth since 2008, only Mexico and Greece lower in the OECD.

No doubt someone will tell me this is also Labour’s fault

 

[NorthernWisdom]

More graphs. Real wage growth since 2008, only Mexico and Greece lower in the OECD.

No doubt someone will tell me this is also Labour’s fault
View attachment 13349

That graph us surely more televant when set against inflation of each country?

 

[Ian1779]

Of course I would, I don’t recall ever questioning that ?

I know it was a long time ago on the thread but my issue wasn’t necessarily with what labour did post crisis but prior to it. I was also highlighting that Tory austerity argument in those earlier years is flawed/not as straightforward as people portray

it is flawed for the simple reason that the notion of ‘we’re all in it together’ didn’t actually happen. The working class population took the brunt of the impact, and as usual - people look at ways to deflect from this point than accept it.

 

[shmmeee]

That graph us surely more televant when set against inflation of each country?

Real wages account for inflation:

OECD Glossary of Statistical Terms - Real wages Definition

 

[CCFCSteve]

More graphs. Real wage growth since 2008, only Mexico and Greece lower in the OECD.

No doubt someone will tell me this is also Labour’s fault
View attachment 13349

I didn’t attribute the financial crisis to labour, like I don’t attribute everything that’s happened post 2010 to the Tories.

For every negative graph, there’s a positive one (check out employment rates per country over recent years - no not all low paid/zero hour jobs as people like to spin !!) or last 12-18 months wage growth even with the backdrop of Brexit) but I can’t keep going round in circles.

If people want a narrow view of politics it’s their call I guess.

ps whilst we would all prefer wage growth to have been stronger, it can be linked to various other factors like over/under supply of labour (See net migration figures since 2010), and productivity. Economics isn’t simple. For example the same people complaining about business tax cuts also don’t like to acknowledge that this can help employment.

 

[shmmeee]

I didn’t attribute the financial crisis to labour, like I don’t attribute everything that’s happened post 2010 to the Tories.

For every negative graph, there’s a positive one (check out employment rates per country over recent years - no not all low paid/zero hour jobs as people like to spin !!) or last 12-18 months wage growth even with the backdrop of Brexit) but I can’t keep going round in circles.

If people want a narrow view of politics it’s their call I guess.

ps whilst we would all prefer wage growth to have been stronger, it can be linked to various other factors like over/under supply of labour (See net migration figures since 2010), and productivity. Economics isn’t simple. For example the same people complaining about business tax cuts also don’t like to acknowledge that this can help employment.

I wasn’t actually talking about you.

Except they don’t. Business hires based on need not because they’ve got some spare cash lying around. Employment has risen because there’s been an explosion in part time and self employment and because wages have been suppressed.

Fact is the Tories inherited the economy at the bottom of a deep cycle and all indicators should have risen without them doing anything at all. They weren’t going to go down from the 2008 low.

They’ve created a low wage, insecure economy and fudged the figures by pushing unemployed people to start up their own businesses to get them off the books.

The sick irony is that people know this and are unhappy yet voted Brexit for change and to bring back well paid secure employment in the form of manufacturing. Instead they’re getting a bankers Brexit.

The old dynamic of capital vs labour has never changed. What’s good for one is rarely good for the other and the Tories will always be the party of capital.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I wasn’t actually talking about you.

Except they don’t. Business hires based on need not because they’ve got some spare cash lying around. Employment has risen because there’s been an explosion in part time and self employment and because wages have been suppressed.

Fact is the Tories inherited the economy at the bottom of a deep cycle and all indicators should have risen without them doing anything at all. They weren’t going to go down from the 2008 low.

They’ve created a low wage, insecure economy and fudged the figures by pushing unemployed people to start up their own businesses to get them off the books.

The sick irony is that people know this and are unhappy yet voted Brexit for change and to bring back well paid secure employment in the form of manufacturing. Instead they’re getting a bankers Brexit.

The old dynamic of capital vs labour has never changed. What’s good for one is rarely good for the other and the Tories will always be the party of capital.

Haha, ok, maybe I was being touchy !!

Company’s hire on need but also on profits ie you might need someone but if you’re loss making and only break even it’s irrelevant (as I say, these things aren’t simple)

There is no doubt the Tories will always be the party for business and labour the state (pretty much their ideologies). For me it’s finding a way to have controlled capitalism as I think that ultimately benefits everyone....appreciate many on here will disagree. Unfortunately the financial crisis and stuff that still goes on today indicates that there is too much uncontrolled capitalism going on. If they don’t self regulate the public will pull hard in the other direction

ps we’ll have to agree to disagree post financial crisis but the facts are there that cuts (post immediate stimulus) were needed, both labour and Tories committed to this pre 2010 election.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Jewish Labour Movement says it will not campaign to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister

Already telling people not to vote for the anti Semitic Corbyn

 

[Ian1779]

Jewish Labour Movement says it will not campaign to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister

Already telling people not to vote for the anti Semitic Corbyn

Just for balance - there are also other high profile Jewish organisations that support Corbyn.

If you look deeper - the underlying issue is Palestine.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Brexit party only going for Labour seats and not targeting conservative ones, hopefully they make a good pact with the conservatives

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Brexit party only going for Labour seats and not targeting conservative ones, hopefully they make a good pact with the conservatives

Why?

 

[Marty]

How do I sign up for postal voting?

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Why?

Because Labour running the country would be a complete nightmare

 

[Grendel]

Why?

this may well happen it seems

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Because Labour running the country would be a complete nightmare

Why?

 

[Ian1779]

Why?

Because the papers told him.

Unless of course he is a financial expert in which case he can demonstrate to us unequivocally that he has the facts and knowledge to support his claim and we are in fact all wrong.

 

[ccfchoi87]

this may well happen it seems

Would be a very good decision for the Tories. Interesting to see whether the Brexit party will go for it given their criticism of Johnson’s deal

 

[shmmeee]

Haha, ok, maybe I was being touchy !!

Company’s hire on need but also on profits ie you might need someone but if you’re loss making and only break even it’s irrelevant (as I say, these things aren’t simple)

There is no doubt the Tories will always be the party for business and labour the state (pretty much their ideologies). For me it’s finding a way to have controlled capitalism as I think that ultimately benefits everyone....appreciate many on here will disagree. Unfortunately the financial crisis and stuff that still goes on today indicates that there is too much uncontrolled capitalism going on. If they don’t self regulate the public will pull hard in the other direction

ps we’ll have to agree to disagree post financial crisis but the facts are there that cuts (post immediate stimulus) were needed, both labour and Tories committed to this pre 2010 election.

Not the state. The worker. But workers strength is in numbers and since Thatcher and the modern economy destroyed unions the state is the union now.

And not business, but capital. A subtle difference. I’m all for business. I think capitalism is the greatest innovation tool humans have created. But I don’t think markets are free and I don’t have any time for the rentier class. Money should be earned by solving people’s problems, not just having more money or getting there first or knowing the right people.

We will have to agree to disagree, though I can’t help but feel you aren’t taking on my point about not all austerity being equal. That (badly formatted so fair enough if you didn’t wade through it ) IFS briefing I posted was clear that the pace and scale of cuts and emphasis on cuts over tax rises was a significant difference in approach.

 

[clint van damme]

Jewish Labour Movement says it will not campaign to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister

Already telling people not to vote for the anti Semitic Corbyn

and there are plenty of Jewish people supporting him.

You do realise the Jewish community hold a whole raft of opinions and ideas? Do you think they all think the same? That's a bit anti-Semitic.

 

[rob9872]

and there are plenty of Jewish people supporting him.

You do realise the Jewish community hold a whole raft of opinions and ideas? Do you think they all think the same? That's a bit anti-Semitic.

Turkeys voting for Christmas

 

[shmmeee]

Johnson has said stuff about black and Asian people far far worse than Corbyn has ever said about Jewish people.

Funny how selective the anti-racist streak on the right is isn’t it? Not to mention that literal holocaust denial and conspiracies about “globalists” is entirely the domain of the radical right.

 

[Ian1779]

Turkeys voting for Christmas

Turkeys knowing that a plant-based diet is the future....

 

[rob9872]

Johnson has said stuff about black and Asian people far far worse than Corbyn has ever said about Jewish people.

Funny how selective the anti-racist streak on the right is isn’t it? Not to mention that literal holocaust denial and conspiracies about “globalists” is entirely the domain of the radical right.

View attachment 13350

He made an ill informed quip about picanninies and water melon smiles, for which he apologised. It's constantly used as a slur to beat him with and yet Corbyn has never apologised not only for the anti-Semitism but more importantly his support for the IRA. Johnson may be many things you all don't like in terms of Etonian, posh, rich, looking after his own etc but I don't get this racist angle keep being labelled on him.

 

[clint van damme]

He made an ill informed quip about picanninies and water melon smiles, for which he apologised. It's constantly used as a slur to beat him with and yet Corbyn has never apologised not only for the anti-Semitism but more importantly his support for the IRA. Johnson may be many things you all don't like in terms of Etonian, posh, rich, looking after his own etc but I don't get this racist angle keep being labelled on him.

Corbyn has apologised for antisemitism in the Labour party, why do you feel the need to make things up?

And if you are so against antisemitism and not just weaponising it for your own agenda you must be furious about the tories close relationship with Victor Orban.

Tory MEPs criticised by Jewish and Muslim groups for Hungary vote

notice the article mentions anitsemitic tropes used in an ongoing campaign against George Soros, some of the same tropes that have been used against him on this forum. Strange considering the same people seem so concerned about antisemitism in the Labour party. I'm sure they're not weaponising it either!

 

[Ian1779]

He made an ill informed quip about picanninies and water melon smiles, for which he apologised. It's constantly used as a slur to beat him with and yet Corbyn has never apologised not only for the anti-Semitism but more importantly his support for the IRA. Johnson may be many things you all don't like in terms of Etonian, posh, rich, looking after his own etc but I don't get this racist angle keep being labelled on him.

If you think that using the phrase ‘picannines’ ‘watermelon smiles’ and describing Muslim women as letterboxes as ‘Ill-informed’ that says a lot about your notion of racism.

Also do you have any understanding of the complexities of the anti-Semitic debate? Anti-semitism does sadly exist in the Labour Party.. and it needs stamping out. It also exists in the Tory party.... as does Islamophobia.

 

[rob9872]

Conveniently avoided the IRA issue then? And I was quoting Corbyn v Boris as that was the criticism aimed at Boris not Labour v Conservative. There are plenty of rotten apples throughout the house and I've never said differently, but you don't defend anti-Semitism by saying "yeah but it's ok because he said it too"

 

[Ian1779]

Conveniently avoided the IRA issue then? And I was quoting Corbyn v Boris as that was the criticism aimed at Boris not Labour v Conservative. There are plenty of rotten apples throughout the house and I've never said differently, but you don't defend anti-Semitism by saying "yeah but it's ok because he said it too"

You won’t find a single person on here defending anti-semitism.
Grow up.

 

[rob9872]

If you think that using the phrase ‘picannines’ ‘watermelon smiles’ and describing Muslim women as letterboxes as ‘Ill-informed’ that says a lot about your notion of racism.

Also do you have any understanding of the complexities of the anti-Semitic debate? Anti-semitism does sadly exist in the Labour Party.. and it needs stamping out. It also exists in the Tory party.... as does Islamophobia.

It also says a lot about limited arguments dredging up the same tired story on rinse and repeat. As I said, he apologised. It doesn't make it right, but surely time to move on. When you get bashed at the polls, I look forward to you ranting again and beating him up with the same tired argument for another 5 years.

 

[chiefdave]

Would be a very good decision for the Tories. Interesting to see whether the Brexit party will go for it given their criticism of Johnson’s deal

Doesn't this have the potential to cause further problems with achieving Brexit if the Brexit party were to win seats rather than the Conservatives.

If Johnson doesn't get a majority he will need the support of the minor parties. He's already pissed off the DUP and his WA doesn't match the requirements of the Brexit party.

Or is the Brexit party hoping for a Lib Dem style coalition where they abandon all their principles once there is a whiff of power?

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

The Corbyn/Remoaner brigade out in full force again

 

[rob9872]

You won’t find a single person on here defending anti-semitism.
Grow up.

Again avoided the IRA point but ok. I didn't say he was defending it, I was pointing out the error in the argument. As for grow up, try being more balanced. Your daily rhetoric is boring.