"Fan representation" on CCFC Board (2 Viewers)

Grendel said:

An hour on google? Why? Did a thesis on workers co operatives so hardly. Have a pop and someone - I think you will find the other way round. -
I know you keep blathering on about wasps - why? You do realise that the huge majority actually will have zero to do with that anyway don't you? It's not a corner shop you know and it has a pr and promotions division

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I wonder if your bravado was also boosted by the fact my account was locked and couldn't offer response?

You're wrong. Again. You insinuate the advisory board is of lesser consequence to the operating board. It's not. The workers are represented on the advisory board who appoint and hold to account the management board.

I work for a multi-billion Euro German concern and know. All your Googling has given you no more than a scratchy undestsnding if the bare facts that you've misinterpreted to mask an initial assertion that was fundamentally wrong. Just admit it

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

I wonder if your bravado was also boosted by the fact my account was locked and couldn't offer response?

You're wrong. Again. You insinuate the advisory board is of lesser consequence to the operating board. It's not. The workers are represented on the advisory board who appoint and hold to account the management board.

I work for a multi-billion Euro German concern and know. All your Googling has given you no more than a scratchy undestsnding if the bare facts that you've misinterpreted to mask an initial assertion that was fundamentally wrong. Just admit it

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Funny that I've been having problems as well:thinking about:

If it makes it any easier, Grendy, just Google 'corporate coderermination in Germany'. I gave you the clues yesterday. Read it and even you will know you're wrong. Then you can just pretend you're poorly a short while, and we'll pretend this foolishness never happened, eh?

Grendel said:

An hour on google? Why? Did a thesis on workers co operatives so hardly. Have a pop and someone - I think you will find the other way round. -
I know you keep blathering on about wasps - why? You do realise that the huge majority actually will have zero to do with that anyway don't you? It's not a corner shop you know and it has a pr and promotions division

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Off course you did. I said second Pop anyway and given your new found qualifications I'm just suprised you didn't come up with that answer in the first place. I'm one of the ones who will have zero to do with Wasps other than going to watch my football team in their stadium. So are you going as their major sponsor or not?

letsallsingtogether said:

Funny that I've been having problems as well:thinking about:

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Grendy isn't. Except for with his grasp of reality....

letsallsingtogether said:

Funny that I've been having problems as well:thinking about:

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I have when using my phone, not noticed it on a PC though.

Grendel said:

Worker representation failed - it's like when councils try and run private enterprises - they fail.

Let's be honest no one on here takes you seriously anymore.

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No ones ever took you seriously oh except your 4 disciples

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

I wonder if your bravado was also boosted by the fact my account was locked and couldn't offer response?

You're wrong. Again. You insinuate the advisory board is of lesser consequence to the operating board. It's not. The workers are represented on the advisory board who appoint and hold to account the management board.

I work for a multi-billion Euro German concern and know. All your Googling has given you no more than a scratchy undestsnding if the bare facts that you've misinterpreted to mask an initial assertion that was fundamentally wrong. Just admit it

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Just to confirm, I didn't lock it or anything. It was because the email account was changed on your account.

You know people will think there is some sort of conspiracy.

Nick said:

Just to confirm, I didn't lock it or anything. It was because the email account was changed on your account.

You know people will think there is some sort of conspiracy.

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:thinking about:

letsallsingtogether said:

:thinking about:

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Yeah MMM had to update it to marketing@wasps.co.uk so he got notifications

skybluetony176 said:

Off course you did. I said second Pop anyway and given your new found qualifications I'm just suprised you didn't come up with that answer in the first place. I'm one of the ones who will have zero to do with Wasps other than going to watch my football team in their stadium. So are you going as their major sponsor or not?

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No I am not going.

I don't like the sport. Has no interest whatsoever.

Really not sure why we as fans should have any faith in this invitation to attend board meetings. Seems like more lip service to be honest.

- It looks to me that many members of the SCG represent no one other than themselves, Mr Strange included
- The SCG have singularly failed to ask the difficult questions or challenge details in the past why would that change now?
- from reading the SCG minutes there is a lack of joined up thinking. For instance the SCG victory of the reducing of beer prices on the concourse, welcome for the fans but where is one of the few areas that CCFC actually have access to other incomes? the concourse! So that "victory" actually cost the club money/income.
- There are too many members and too many that have titles but no substance - makes it unwieldy
- it is a representative at some meetings with no power in law or even by agreement. The more interesting and crucial decisions will (a) be taken at other meetings (b) be taken by Seppala
- Any confidential decisions would have to be kept confidential so you have the situation of the fans rep having to say "I went but I cant tell you"
- In what way is Mr Strange the best candidate? Just my opinion but some of his past actions & comments make me think he is not.
- The SCG has to get it in to their heads that it is all very well making suggestions and demands but such changes cost money - who is going to pay? Personally I would rather the club spent money on the team on the pitch not on changing the décor in the concourse etc. CCFC is only a day tenant - the landlords wont spend money on CCFC without something in return by way of money and commitment. So in that context many of the discussions and suggestions by the SCG are worthless/pointless

Sorry I have very little faith in the SCG representing me or the vast majority of the fans and even less faith in Mr Strange doing the job I think is required

All too cosy it seems to me

All just my opinion of course

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

Grendy isn't. Except for with his grasp of reality....

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The point I am making is that your assertion that German organisations have workers with board representation contributes to their success. You omitted to say it’s a legislative requirement for this to be the case. Therefore, it cannot be deemed to have any contribution to success at all can it? Isn’t it the case that all companies over a certain size have to have this? I cannot be bothered to look at when it was introduced but I think in certain industries it has been in place for over half a century. So for that country, it is fully immersed into their culture. That still does not mean, as you well know, that it is a factor in success. To suggest that without such legislation the organisations you refer to would have not enjoyed such success is a highly dubious statement (which of course you did not actually say but implied).

In this country the culture and business behaviours are very different. The move to have such ventures was tried and failed in all instances that I am aware of. Now, you could argue that the introduction into nationalised industries of such a move was always destined to fail as it was seen as a clumsy way of trying to overcome industrial unrest as opposed to gaining valued input. However, many observers would claim that the cultural divide between workers in the UK was, and still is, significantly greater than in other countries in the world. Such moves are viewed cynically and with suspicion here and not seen as progressive but a way of placating the workforce.

Going back to the issue at hand, fan representation on a football board, is a bridge further still – the comparison would be that of consumer representation on a board. Interestingly, the comments generally on this thread show exactly why worker representation is not viewed positively in the UK. He doesn’t represent me, he will suck up to the bosses, he is now one of them – interestingly very much the same rhetoric aimed at such initiatives when introduced in industry.

The introduction is pointless. The SCG or whatever they are I suppose can be deemed the best choice if there is channels of communication from supporters to them on match day issues. They can then feed these back to the Board. Ultimately I can see no other purpose of a supporter on the board than this. A supporter will not be involved in strategic direction or be party to financial discussion. It is illogical and would have confidentiality issues.

Supporter representation is a publicity stunt and a waste of time.

If the club represented by directors and/or senior management meets monthly with the SCG who are supposed to represent the fans what, other than an ego trip for those involved, is the need for one or two chosen people to attend selected board meetings? It achieves what exactly? What does attending selected board meetings add in reality?

Or are we saying that the SCG is totally ineffective in achieving a conduit of communication with the decision makers at CCFC. In which case what's the purpose of the SCG?

oldskyblue58 said:

If the club represented by directors and/or senior management meets monthly with the SCG who are supposed to represent the fans what, other than an ego trip for those involved, is the need for one or two chosen people to attend selected board meetings? It achieves what exactly?

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You've answered your own question. It satisfies the ego of those concerned.

In theory the SCG would be ok if they took fan issues to the club but they don't need to be on the board to do that. Also given that I would not have even heard of them if I was t on here I suspect they don't actually consult much at all with anyone.

Grendel said:

You've answered your own question. It satisfies the ego of those concerned.

In theory the SCG would be ok if they took fan issues to the club but they don't need to be on the board to do that. Also given that I would not have even heard of them if I was t on here I suspect they don't actually consult much at all with anyone.

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Hard to come to any other conclusion really isn't it

If as a fan I have an issue I would like raised at a SCG meeting who do I raise it with ? Would it not be an idea for the SCG to have a spot on the concourse at the Ricoh where fans could go and raise an issue if they want, otherwise all Mr Strange will do is be raising points he or perhaps he and a couple of associates feel need bringing up.

oldskyblue58 said:

Hard to come to any other conclusion really isn't it

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HSV ( Hamburg )has a Fan "beauftragter". Everyone(HSV Fans ) knows who he is. I have held the HSV Supporters Club Schleswig-Holstein branch AGM in my pub. He comes and meets with representatives from the Schleswig-Holstein Fan groups. I don't know the fine details, but he seems to be respected and known by the fans. Maybe someone could google them ( HSV Supporters Club ) to find out how that works?

Grendel said:

The point I am making is that your assertion that German organisations have workers with board representation contributes to their success. You omitted to say it’s a legislative requirement for this to be the case. Therefore, it cannot be deemed to have any contribution to success at all can it? Isn’t it the case that all companies over a certain size have to have this? I cannot be bothered to look at when it was introduced but I think in certain industries it has been in place for over half a century. So for that country, it is fully immersed into their culture. That still does not mean, as you well know, that it is a factor in success. To suggest that without such legislation the organisations you refer to would have not enjoyed such success is a highly dubious statement (which of course you did not actually say but implied).

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Ha ha. Wow, you're struggling here. Your statement was that 'worker representation on boards are a waste of time'. I know it's a legislative compulsion in Germany - that's why I bought it up. I know it's central to their business DNA.

Equally, you know some facts with regards the German business model; like one euro in four is earned from exports and more than every fifth job depends directly or indirectly on foreign trade. They have been the world's most prominent exporter six times in a row between 2003 and 2008, in 2009, with exports worth US$ 1,121 billion - around one third of the gross national income.

Their biggest, most successful - that's over 700 businesses - companies use a model of legal worker representation across the advisory board, appointing and controlling the management board.

Against that backdrop, to assert what you did; well... it was wrong, wasn't it? Come on, let's have an admission and move on.....

Just googled HSV Fanbeauftragte. There are several who Look after various aspects- e.g. One looks after the Clubs in different nearby towns, another deals with the Ultras and co. Very organised and the contact details with photo on the official Club site. Fans can see who deals with their questions. Would be good to Look into their system - because it works.

oldskyblue58 said:

Hard to come to any other conclusion really isn't it

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Yes but at some point you have to engage with all the stakeholders in order to move this forward. We can go on ignoring the facts or doing the "you're from not round here" gig.

Would it not be an idea to Invite the "Fans Rep" to a Trust (this seems to be the only organised body) meeting so that he can at first hand understand the mood of the supporters. He would not even have to speak at that meeting other than a brief intro about himself and the role and what its mandate is. Just listen and take the message.

As it stands Sport needs business to Fund it so we have to get on and deal with the parties concerned and do whats best for Coventry as a sporting city and coventry City. We can't forever keep on the Ian Paisley route of Negotiation .. simply NO. Its not going to work... recent events shows it hasn't.

I have posted many times on here that I believe SISU is 100% to blame.. but if I refuse to accept they are part of any solution and try to build some bridges then we are all going to lose.... again and again and again and this applies to all parties.

We may not like where we are starting from but the first steps on this journey are ones we have to take.

albatross said:

Yes but at some point you have to engage with all the stakeholders in order to move this forward. We can go on ignoring the facts or doing the "you're from not round here" gig.

Would it not be an idea to Invite the "Fans Rep" to a Trust (this seems to be the only organised body) meeting so that he can at first hand understand the mood of the supporters. He would not even have to speak at that meeting other than a brief intro about himself and the role and what its mandate is. Just listen and take the message.

As it stands Sport needs business to Fund it so we have to get on and deal with the parties concerned and do whats best for Coventry as a sporting city and coventry City. We can't forever keep on the Ian Paisley route of Negotiation .. simply NO. Its not going to work... recent events shows it hasn't.

I have posted many times on here that I believe SISU is 100% to blame.. but if I refuse to accept they are part of any solution and try to build some bridges then we are all going to lose.... again and again and again and this applies to all parties.

We may not like where we are starting from but the first steps on this journey are ones we have to take.

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I wouldn't disagree with that.

I think my issue is that the fans rep appears self appointed with little connection to the fans in the first place, and because of that the appointment comes over rightly or wrongly as chosen and an ego trip.

That said what is the purpose of the SCG or indeed the Trust if it is not to engage on behalf of the fans/members with the club in a meaningful and proper manner. Isnt the bridge already there so why the need for a "super fan" ? If the SCG and Trust are doing what they are set up to do and engaging with all parties, particularly the club, (something the Trust have tried to do over a long period of time) then the need for a fan sitting at the odd board room meeting is what exactly?

Bridges have repeatedly been offered but it takes two to meet in the middle. Plus the solutions in this do not really involve a fan being in the CCFC board room every so often

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

Ha ha. Wow, you're struggling here. Your statement was that 'worker representation on boards are a waste of time'. I know it's a legislative compulsion in Germany - that's why I bought it up. I know it's central to their business DNA.

Equally, you know some facts with regards the German business model; like one euro in four is earned from exports and more than every fifth job depends directly or indirectly on foreign trade. They have been the world's most prominent exporter six times in a row between 2003 and 2008, in 2009, with exports worth US$ 1,121 billion - around one third of the gross national income.

Their biggest, most successful - that's over 700 businesses - companies use a model of legal worker representation across the advisory board, appointing and controlling the management board.

Against that backdrop, to assert what you did; well... it was wrong, wasn't it? Come on, let's have an admission and move on.....

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Well if that is me struggling I would hate to see what happens when I am ahead. You oddly seem to agree with all of my observations;

· The worker representation is legislative
· There is no proof at all that this contributes to enhanced productivity or improved profits
· The cultural acceptability makes this a norm in Germany not a barometer of success

You oddly seem to be totally ignoring my main observation of the experiences of this model in the UK. Why? Does it work in the UK (where we live and where the debate has most relevance)?

Grendel said:

Worker representation on boards are a waste of time. Industry tried and it ended up badly as would this.

Anyway your chums in the trust seem to be more interested in cosying up to wasps.

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At least this seems to suggest that you and Jonathan Strange are not the same person, as I has suspected.

Meanwhile, are you going to carrying on tediously treating Wasps like the enemy for the indefinite future?

OSB58, Agreed.

Think that SISU and the club are now in unchartered waters and they need the fans more than ever. we are the remaining goodwill in their business.

WASPs / ACL whilst having to look out for WASPs and ACL's interest first seem to want to keep the club onside as they are part of their business plan.

think we are all going to have to bite our tongues and count to ten and then compromise if we are ever to get this to a conclusion other than liquidation

Grendel said:

Well if that is me struggling I would hate to see what happens when I am ahead. You oddly seem to agree with all of my observations;

· The worker representation is legislative
· There is no proof at all that this contributes to enhanced productivity or improved profits
· The cultural acceptability makes this a norm in Germany not a barometer of success

You oddly seem to be totally ignoring my main observation of the experiences of this model in the UK. Why? Does it work in the UK (where we live and where the debate has most relevance)?

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Your claim was 'Worker representation on boards are a waste of time. Industry tried and it ended up badly as would this'. I proved you wrong and gave the German example.

Only after that, and an hour or so's worth of Googling, you have you offered up the Grendy-defined caveats to cover your tracks. It's legislative. It's in Germany. I haven't seen the economy when it hasn't been in place......

To come back to your point 'Worker representation on boards are a waste of time'. No they're not. They can work. They do work. They are working. Right now.

Just go back and continue the debate you were losing before you offered up your ridiculous comment and then lost the sub-debate that opened up around that gaffe

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

Your claim was 'Worker representation on boards are a waste of time. Industry tried and it ended up badly as would this'. I proved you wrong and gave the German example.

Only after that, and an hour or so's worth of Googling, you have you offered up the Grendy-defined caveats to cover your tracks. It's legislative. It's in Germany. I haven't seen the economy when it hasn't been in place......

To come back to your point 'Worker representation on boards are a waste of time'. No they're not. They can work. They do work. They are working. Right now.

Just go back and continue the debate you were losing before you offered up your ridiculous comment and then lost the sub-debate that opened up around that gaffe

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Nice to see you have studied at the Institute of Astute to understand the meaning if the word truth.

Where there is legislation it nullifies any measurement of success. It could be legislation that all workers consume ice cream every lunchtime . It does not define success.

Again the diversion and refusal to address the salient point. Do they work in uk culture - yes or no?

It seems you are unable to address this simple issue (or won't).

Grendel said:

Nice to see you have studied at the Institute of Astute to understand the meaning if the word truth.

Where there is legislation it nullifies any measurement of success. It could be legislation that all workers consume ice cream every lunchtime . It does not define success.

Again the diversion and refusal to address the salient point. Do they work in uk culture - yes or no?

It seems you are unable to address this simple issue (or won't).

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Why UK culture? Why add this caveat? I know your very silly answer will be 'because we are in the UK'; but that's not the whole story.

There is plenty we can learn from German business and their embracing of worker representation, and there's plenty - more pertinently - we can learn from the German football model. The most successful model in world football?

So, why can't we embrace them? What's stopping us? Simply your opinion that worker representation doesn't work in your very narrow, myopic self-serving context?

This is another example of SISU taking something that should be a positive and shooting themselves in the foot. They must know the comments that are made about the SCG being non-representative and in SISU's pocket so they have picked the person from the SCG who it could be argued is most guilty of those two things.

If there is to be fan representation then for me it has to be the trust. No matter what you think of them they are the biggest supporter group and have avenues people can pursue if they aren't happy with what they are doing.

I wonder if the fans representative will be used by the directors as an excuse not to talk to individual fans groups directly.

In the past the Trust has talked to all parties usually constructively but will they now be expected to channel any questions through the SCG and Mr Strange in particular? Something else for Fisher and co to hide behind and dodge questions if so....... I could be cynical and think that's the purpose of this cosy appointment.

Grendel said:

Well if that is me struggling I would hate to see what happens when I am ahead. You oddly seem to agree with all of my observations;

· The worker representation is legislative
· There is no proof at all that this contributes to enhanced productivity or improved profits
· The cultural acceptability makes this a norm in Germany not a barometer of success

You oddly seem to be totally ignoring my main observation of the experiences of this model in the UK. Why? Does it work in the UK (where we live and where the debate has most relevance)?

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Why doesn't it work in the UK?
well for one we have managers that believe they are actually better then they are, they do not like to take notice of their subordinates.
That is why our manufacturing went tits up, took overseas takeovers of most of our industry to drag us back up out of the doldrums.

You keep hearing about the bank managers getting large bonuses so as to keep them in England? Why they fucked it all up in the first place sack them and start again.

I agree with LAST. Despite all the bullshit, the decline of British manufacturing was never down to workers. The Nissan factory in Sunderland is supposedly the most productive in Europe. Unions form part of company decision making at Nissan.

Can't believe how this thread seems to have gone so off topic .

However I've just returned from a rare venture Into the HASTINGS for an even rarer post work Drink.

Happened to touch on worker Involvement .

I've worked In Exhibitions for over 30 years now and I can unequivocally say the first Guy/Company I worked had the best set up.

He would Involve us In Decision making .

As soon as he received a confirmed set of plans for a contract we'd all gather In the office for 20-30 mins and digest the design ,approach and materials

for Construction ,then offer up suggestions for the best methods of Construction ,Economies of Materials etc.

I have to say It was the best environment I've ever worked In, we were all eager and well rewarded ,prepared to work up to 80 hrs a week to

turn a contract around .

There were 7-8 of us generally so a fairly small team ,I'm talking mid 80's here and the spell that sticks with me was a 3 month period where we turned

him over £250K on 22 contracts , over a period of 3 months , very successful for the time and enough for him to decide to purchase the unit we worked

from .

Unfortunately that was a poor move as 1, the purchase required a deposit of £25K and was subject to VAT of £25K ,wiping out his Immediate Cash flow .


Eventually ending In failure .

wingy said:

Can't believe how this thread seems to have gone so off topic .

However I've just returned from a rare venture Into the HASTINGS for an even rarer post work Drink.

Happened to touch on worker Involvement .

I've worked In Exhibitions for over 30 years now and I can unequivocally say the first Guy/Company I worked had the best set up.

He would Involve us In Decision making .

As soon as he received a confirmed set of plans for a contract we'd all gather In the office for 20-30 mins and digest the design ,approach and materials

for Construction ,then offer up suggestions for the best methods of Construction ,Economies of Materials etc.

I have to say It was the best environment I've ever worked In, we were all eager and well rewarded ,prepared to work up to 80 hrs a week to

turn a contract around .

There were 7-8 of us generally so a fairly small team ,I'm talking mid 80's here and the spell that sticks with me was a 3 month period where we turned

him over £250K on 22 contracts , over a period of 3 months , very successful for the time and enough for him to decide to purchase the unit we worked

from .

Unfortunately that was a poor move as 1, the purchase required a deposit of £25K and was subject to VAT of £25K ,wiping out his Immediate Cash flow .


Eventually ending In failure .

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So I guess the moral of the story is, if you can't really afford to buy, it's better to rent, even if you are currently 'cash flow positive'. Wise words indeed.