Embarrassing (14 Viewers)

[SkyBlueDom26]

I’m saying it could be considered as a provocation towards them, or as an act of intimidation.

Oh fuck off hahahahahahahahahaha, are you taking the piss? What a fucking idiot. You wouldn’t want the flag of our country put up because an act of intimidation to people who aren’t from here, that’s easily the most embarrassing post on the whole forum

 

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[SkyBlueDom26]

Generally I tend to find this forum isnt in line with the general population in regards to its opinions of immigration levels

Most polls show Brits think immigration levels are way too high and yet I come on here and its never like that .. always the opposite for the most part .

Interesting but you can see why there's so many arguments on here

It’s the deluded world of ‘SBT’ nobody on here lives in the real world, it makes for hilarious reading. They all think there always right though

 

[SBT]

Nonsense. If the flag of your residence is a source of fear, it’s probably time to leave.

Would you apply that logic to people hoisting the Palestinian flag being intimidating towards Jewish people?

If your answer is no, you should probably explore that double standard.

I mean, the police would quite obviously take issue with your example there, they’ve done so many times.

Would you wave around a Union Jack in the Celtic home end on Old Firm day? It’s all well and good saying you should be able to fly the flag of your residence wherever you want in this country, but the reality is that like all symbols there are nuances depending on who’s displaying it where and when.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I get your point, but I don't like all these flags whapped up with cable ties, it's tacky...

Just ask for permission FFS and get it done right.

Agreed.

In Birmingham Council, you had the Pakistani flag rose to celebrate Pakistani independence whilst simultaneously taking down the Union Jack and St George’s cross. That’s where this ‘Operation Raise the Flag’ began.

Ordinary people find this v odd behaviour from government at all levels.

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

I’m saying it could be considered as a provocation towards them, or as an act of intimidation.

Does the Palestine flag not intimidate Jewish people or act as provocation ?

 

[SBT]

Does the Palestine flag not intimidate Jewish people or act as provocation ?

As I said above, there are likely instances where it surely does. Many Jewish groups have argued this - maybe you disagree?

 

[DT-R]

Who on here hates the country?

As a patriotic man, who has fought for this country in N.Irelamd, Iraq, and Afghanistan, I'm starting to hate what it is becoming. Im genuinely thinking of moving abroad. Possibly Norway. But not the UK, its going to the dogs!

Sent from my SM-S711B using Tapatalk

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I mean, the police would quite obviously take issue with your example there, they’ve done so many times.

Would you wave around a Union Jack in the Celtic home end on Old Firm day? It’s all well and good saying you should be able to fly the flag of your residence wherever you want in this country, but the reality is that like all symbols there are nuances depending on who’s displaying it where and when.

There have been Palestinian flags put in public places and have not been taken down.

The Union Jack and St George’s cross are the two flags (as well as the other home nation flags) where there shouldn’t be any question of motivations behind displaying the flag.

If you think the flag is being co-opted by racists and fascists, it’s more excuse for ordinary people to fly the flag.

If any migrant or asylum seeker takes exception to our flag, they probably don’t ever want to integrate with our values or ever identify as British. If that’s the case, perhaps this isn’t the place for them.

In France, who have their immigration issues to deal with, have not denigrated their flag to this extent. No one would question the motive of someone hoisting the tricolour in public places.

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

As I said above, there are likely instances where it surely does. Many Jewish groups have argued this - maybe you disagree?

No I agree, but i don't want this country covered in Palestine, Israel and Pakistan flags. I want to see Union Jacks St Georges Crosses and Lady Godiva

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

As a patriotic man, who has fought for this country in N.Irelamd, Iraq, and Afghanistan, I'm starting to hate what it is becoming. Im genuinely thinking of moving abroad. Possibly Norway. But not the UK, its going to the dogs!

Sent from my SM-S711B using Tapatalk

Thank you for your service mate! The country can still be saved, people are finally waking up contrary to what the clowns on here will have you believe

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

As I said above, there are likely instances where it surely does. Many Jewish groups have argued this - maybe you disagree?

The specific example here is the hoisting of Palestinian flags in public places.

A straight yes or no will do. Not a mealy mouthed response.

Personally, if people want to fly that flag, they can on private property. I disagree with it being flied in public.

 

[SBT]

The Union Jack and St George’s cross are the two flags (as well as the other home nation flags) where there shouldn’t be any question of motivations behind displaying the flag.

A nice idea in theory. Meanwhile in the real world…

If any migrant or asylum seeker takes exception to our flag, they probably don’t ever want to integrate with our values or ever identify as British. If that’s the case, perhaps this isn’t the place for them.

What nonsense. It’s not the flag itself that some ethnic minorities are taking exception to, it’s the intimidation being implied. Saying that a flag is somehow core to British identity is just imported reheated American bollocks.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

As a patriotic man, who has fought for this country in N.Irelamd, Iraq, and Afghanistan, I'm starting to hate what it is becoming. Im genuinely thinking of moving abroad. Possibly Norway. But not the UK, its going to the dogs!

Sent from my SM-S711B using Tapatalk

@shmmeee please give the lecture about how everything is actually great and it’s the public who have gaslit themselves into believing things are bad.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

@shmmeee please give the lecture about how everything is actually great and it’s the public who have gaslit themselves into believing things are bad.

Don’t summon the sad weirdo @shmmeee

 

[DT-R]

Thank you for your service mate! The country can still be saved, people are finally waking up contrary to what the clowns on here will have you believe

We're not in America, we dont need any of that "thank you for your service shit" though its appreciated.

Im not sure it can be saved in all honesty. Im not sure there's anything left to save. The minority left that have been so loud and vocal for so many years that get away with what they want whilst ordinary, working folk are arrested over tweets and hurty words! Its already gone to rat shit, and i dont think even Farage can save it. The damage has already been done.

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[Nuskyblue]

Agreed.

In Birmingham Council, you had the Pakistani flag rose to celebrate Pakistani independence whilst simultaneously taking down the Union Jack and St George’s cross. That’s where this ‘Operation Raise the Flag’ began.

Ordinary people find this v odd behaviour from government at all levels.

I get that, conversely you also have to go through the correct routes.

The optics don't look great from either end.

To be fair if a submission for a bunch of Union/St George's flags to be put up was rejected it would probably hold more political weight for the culture war angle

 

[SBT]

The specific example here is the hoisting of Palestinian flags in public places.

A straight yes or no will do. Not a mealy mouthed response.

Personally, if people want to fly that flag, they can on private property. I disagree with it being flied in public.

You won’t get a straight yes or no on the Palestinian flag, the Israeli flag, or the British flag - it depends entirely on the context. You can try to pretend otherwise but it’s true.

Can I fly a CCFC flag in public or does that get in the way of your flag rules?

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

We're not in America, we dont need any of that "thank you for your service shit" though its appreciated.

Im not sure it can be saved in all honesty. Im not sure there's anything left to save. The minority left that have been so loud and vocal for so many years that get away with what they want whilst ordinary, working folk are arrested over tweets and hurty words! Its already gone to rat shit, and i dont think even Farage can save it. The damage has already been done.

Sent from my SM-S711B using Tapatalk

It’s not good at the minute but once reform get in things will start getting better

 

[DT-R]

It’s not good at the minute but once reform get in things will start getting better

We shall see and there is hope. But its going to get a lot worse before it gets any better. That is a certainty.

Sent from my SM-S711B using Tapatalk

 

[Nuskyblue]

As a patriotic man, who has fought for this country in N.Irelamd, Iraq, and Afghanistan, I'm starting to hate what it is becoming. Im genuinely thinking of moving abroad. Possibly Norway. But not the UK, its going to the dogs!

Sent from my SM-S711B using Tapatalk

It feels like comity by internet at this point.

 

[DT-R]

It feels like comity by internet at this point.

Im not gonna lie, that comment is lost on me and I dont know what it means

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[Nuskyblue]

Im not gonna lie, that comment is lost on me and I dont know what it means

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Basically all parties playing up to outrage on the internet, trying to keep all parties happy... Never gonna happen is it!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It’s ironic because freedom of movement was a topic that united Michael Foot, Tony Benn and Enoch Powell iirc.

Yet, concerns over immigration aren’t caricatured as being fascist or right wing. It’s not and it’s only the internationalist liberals who believe in open borders and frankly, it’s been damaging the ‘social contract’ between government and people. Every PM since Cameron has unequivocally been elected with manifesto pledges to reduce migration and the exact opposite has been delivered.

Low income migration not only harms workers, the mounting costs of allowing unproductive people come to the UK and stay risks undermining our welfare state. Particularly in relation to social housing, the NHS and of course in-work and out-of-work benefits.

When the Labour grandees of the last Labour government (Blunkett & Straw) are arguing of the suspension of the ECHR, it is totemic that the people responsible for enshrining the ECHR and HRA in UK law understand that this has had unintended consequences

If you can find any examples of people arguing for truly open borders and unfettered immigration, be my guest. I don't think many serious people advocating those positions exist: I certainly don't.

However the eagerness to scrap the ECHR and HRA has to be taken very, very carefully considering the era in which those conventions were established and what they were designed to prevent. I disagree that they are the problem instead of the British state struggling after prolonged neglect to generally manage its affairs.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

A nice idea in theory. Meanwhile in the real world…


What nonsense. It’s not the flag itself that some ethnic minorities are taking exception to, it’s the intimidation being implied. Saying that a flag is somehow core to British identity is just imported reheated American bollocks.

The British flag and identity is one of, if not the most fluid national identities out there. Unlike France and Germany, who trace their lineage back to the ancient ‘Franks’ and Germanic tribes of Germania… Britain as a nation state was created by an Act of Union in 1707 to include the English and Scottish nations (Ireland added in 1805 and Wales was administratively part of England at this point).

Anyway, if you come to Britain, there really isn’t any context it can be a source of intimidation or offence. Why? You chose this country as a ‘safe’ one or to reside in. It’s a reasonable expectation for new arrivals to integrate and revere the flag as a native person would. Otherwise, we’ve failed to integrate people or they don’t want to integrate. In the case of the latter, perhaps their welcome should be cut short.

I get that, conversely you also have to go through the correct routes.

The optics don't look great from either end.

To be fair if a submission for a bunch of Union/St George's flags to be put up was rejected it would probably hold more political weight for the culture war angle

It’s the double standards because there’s plenty of Palestinian flags that are hoisted in a similar manner all over Birmingham that have not been taken down. That’s what’s prompted the ‘rebellion’.

In any case, why should you need a license to raise the Union Jack or St George’s flag?

 

[Nuskyblue]

The British flag and identity is one of, if not the most fluid national identities out there. Unlike France and Germany, who trace their lineage back to the ancient ‘Franks’ and Germanic tribes of Germania… Britain as a nation state was created by an Act of Union in 1707 to include the English and Scottish nations (Ireland added in 1805 and Wales was administratively part of England at this point).

Anyway, if you come to Britain, there really isn’t any context it can be a source of intimidation or offence. Why? You chose this country as a ‘safe’ one or to reside in. It’s a reasonable expectation for new arrivals to integrate and revere the flag as a native person would. Otherwise, we’ve failed to integrate people or they don’t want to integrate. In the case of the latter, perhaps their welcome should be cut short.



It’s the double standards because there’s plenty of Palestinian flags that are hoisted in a similar manner all over Birmingham that have not been taken down. That’s what’s prompted the ‘rebellion’.

In any case, why should you need a license to raise the Union Jack or St George’s flag?

Tbh I've not seen any Palestine flags on public infrastructure, if they have and have not been removed where the Cross of Saint George has then that is a joke. Especially in Brum. Maybe they should paint St Georges flags on the bin bags!

 

[SBT]

Anyway, if you come to Britain, there really isn’t any context it can be a source of intimidation or offence. Why? You chose this country as a ‘safe’ one or to reside in. It’s a reasonable expectation for new arrivals to integrate and revere the flag as a native person would.

If you genuinely can’t think of a scenario where a foreigner living here could be intimidated by people weaponising our national flag then I think that shows a lack of imagination more than anything.

Btw who said you have to “revere the flag”? It’s a flag ffs! There are a thousand things I’d rather people did to integrate here before tearing up at the sight of the Union Jack.

 

[Nick]

I’m saying it could be considered as a provocation towards them, or as an act of intimidation.

Considered that by who?

If I was apparently fleeing for my life and a country took me in, whacked me in a fancy hotel and started giving me money im not sure that countries flag would be a provocation. I'd probably worship it along with the country. If the sight of that countries flag offended me then it wouldn't be the flag that was the issue.

At this point you're scraping the barrel.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

If you can find any examples of people arguing for truly open borders and unfettered immigration, be my guest. I don't think many serious people advocating those positions exist: I certainly don't.

However the eagerness to scrap the ECHR and HRA has to be taken very, very carefully considering the era in which those conventions were established and what they were designed to prevent. I disagree that they are the problem instead of the British state struggling after prolonged neglect to generally manage its affairs.

Why can’t they?

English common law is the basis of the free world. Canada, Australia, NZ do not need to be a part of the ECHR. Australia, by the way, had a similar issue with small boats from Indonesia and provide the blueprint for us to follow. On the Human Rights Act, it enshrines the primacy of the ECHR over British law and that is fundamentally wrong. There’s no reason why a British Bill of Rights could be used to replace the HRA. After all, the Bill of Rights (1689) is still active on the statute books so this idea that we had no human rights before the HRA of 1998 is demonstrably false.

Again, these conventions were set up in response to specific circumstances post-WW2 and clearly is not equipped with millions of people coming to Europe’s doors.

For example, take the 1951 refugee convention:
- no ‘first country’ obligation wasn’t envisaged with people travelling cross-continent to claim asylum. A practical reform could be to amend it to apply in the continent of origin
- ‘Protection for illegal entry’ - again, makes sense in the context of the Cold War. Not so much when you have people from Afghanistan or Eritrea who cross tens of safe countries and pay traffickers to go to the EU, travel through multiple EU countries and then pay traffickers to get to the UK.

If these conventions cannot be reformed to adjust to modern realities… at the v least they ought to be suspended temporarily.

 

[shmmeee]

@shmmeee please give the lecture about how everything is actually great and it’s the public who have gaslit themselves into believing things are bad.

I mean we’ve had 14 years of underfunding and bad government including the biggest act of self harm a government has ever done and a pandemic. We’re doing alright when you look around and things are starting to pick up but Rome wasn’t built in a day. People just need to get off the internet and stop voting wing govts in.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

If you genuinely can’t think of a scenario where a foreigner living here could be intimidated by people weaponising our national flag then I think that shows a lack of imagination more than anything.

Btw who said you have to “revere the flag”? It’s a flag ffs! There are a thousand things I’d rather people did to integrate here before tearing up at the sight of the Union Jack.

‘It’s a flag ffs’ is quite an ironic comment to make right after saying it can be ‘weaponised’ and used as an intimidating tactic. This is doublethink in action.

 

[SBT]

Considered that by who?

If I was apparently fleeing for my life and a country took me in, whacked me in a fancy hotel and started giving me money im not sure that countries flag would be a provocation. I'd probably worship it along with the country. If the sight of that countries flag offended me then it wouldn't be the flag that was the issue.

At this point you're scraping the barrel.

Well if the accompanying suggestion is that England is just for English people then clearly it’s not exactly a warm welcome for these people is it?

 

[SBT]

‘It’s a flag ffs’ is quite an ironic comment to make right after saying it can be ‘weaponised’ and used as an intimidating tactic. This is doublethink in action.

No, it’s an acknowledgement that flags generally mean whatever you want them to mean. Personally I don’t think they hold any magical secrets to national identity, but clearly for the people running around tying them to lampposts they mean something else entirely.

 

[chiefdave]

Generally I tend to find this forum isnt in line with the general population in regards to its opinions of immigration levels

Most polls show Brits think immigration levels are way too high and yet I come on here and its never like that .. always the opposite for the most part .

Interesting but you can see why there's so many arguments on here

I'm not sure the forum as a whole is that far out of line, just a handful of people on either side who post a million times a day.

As for the polls while they give you a strong indication of the general feeling of the country the same polling shows that people are massively overestimating the numbers so not sure what conclusion you can really draw from that, at least one that will 'solve' the problem.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I mean we’ve had 14 years of underfunding and bad government including the biggest act of self harm a government has ever done and a pandemic. We’re doing alright when you look around and things are starting to pick up but Rome wasn’t built in a day. People just need to get off the internet and stop voting wing govts in.

Well, at the start of Labour’s tenure there was a supposed £20bn black hole and in just over the last year they’ve ’doubled it and given it to the next one’.

It’s genuinely hilarious seeing you tell people to ‘get off the internet’ when most ordinary people in the ‘real world’ think Starmer is doing a terrible job and the country is going in the wrong direction.

To offer some copium, the early Thatcher years were a farce and it took the Falklands war to arguably save the 1983 election…

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why can’t they?

English common law is the basis of the free world. Canada, Australia, NZ do not need to be a part of the ECHR. Australia, by the way, had a similar issue with small boats from Indonesia and provide the blueprint for us to follow. On the Human Rights Act, it enshrines the primacy of the ECHR over British law and that is fundamentally wrong. There’s no reason why a British Bill of Rights could be used to replace the HRA. After all, the Bill of Rights (1689) is still active on the statute books so this idea that we had no human rights before the HRA of 1998 is demonstrably false.

Again, these conventions were set up in response to specific circumstances post-WW2 and clearly is not equipped with millions of people coming to Europe’s doors.

For example, take the 1951 refugee convention:
- no ‘first country’ obligation wasn’t envisaged with people travelling cross-continent to claim asylum. A practical reform could be to amend it to apply in the continent of origin
- ‘Protection for illegal entry’ - again, makes sense in the context of the Cold War. Not so much when you have people from Afghanistan or Eritrea who cross tens of safe countries and pay traffickers to go to the EU, travel through multiple EU countries and then pay traffickers to get to the UK.

If these conventions cannot be reformed to adjust to modern realities… at the v least they ought to be suspended temporarily.

The conventions were set up when millions of people were displaced, most of Europe was in ruins and folks often had nothing more to present than their clothes, never mind documentation or being able to offer proof of identity. I find this dehumanising of desperate people to be more than a bit distasteful anyway, and is just one addition to the list of reasons why we'd be leaving the country if we could.

Flipping off the EU and now flipping off international law so that we can flip off people seeking refuge here, it's disgraceful. Asylum seekers are not the reason why the country's in the state that it is.